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Old 09-25-2019, 10:06 PM
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Greyscale Greyscale is offline
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I seriously hope he was a troll. Otherwise thats just... sad.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:32 PM
TENNGRIZZ TENNGRIZZ is offline
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Since he like Taurus , get a Taurus Judge and Taurus Circuit Judge and he should be good to go that is my SHTF load out anyway. JMHO and S/FI!
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:25 AM
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Since he like Taurus , get a Taurus Judge and Taurus Circuit Judge and he should be good to go that is my SHTF load out anyway. JMHO and S/FI!
I always thought your go to was a Mini 14.

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Old 09-26-2019, 09:35 PM
TENNGRIZZ TENNGRIZZ is offline
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I always thought your go to was a Mini 14.

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It is and a 1911 , I am just being my normal sarcastic self S/FI! buddy
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Old 10-23-2019, 03:07 PM
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Wow. First I’m not an expert. I own 4 mossberg 500 shotguns, 1 mini-14, 1 bolt gun in 5.56/223, 1 bolt gun in 7.62x39, 1 lever action .357, 1 lever action 30-30. 2 .357 revolvers, 1 9mm and 1 40 cal pistol. I’m not really set up for ww3. However, I think whatever guns you have is based on where you live. I went through hurricane Michael and we had no power or water for three weeks. It’s awful dark at night. We had a curfew. That being said, the nuts would come out at night. We spent a lot of time in the front yard with a fire and lanterns as the house was 100 degrees. No street lights. You won’t see anyone until they are 25 feet away. Thankfully I had dogs. At times like that a shotgun is your best friend. Mine was a mossberg security. It was backed up with a .357 revolver in my pocket. Just my two cents. An AR or AK would not have done any better.
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Old 10-23-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bunny man View Post
. No street lights. You won’t see anyone until they are 25 feet away. Thankfully I had dogs. At times like that a shotgun is your best friend. Mine was a mossberg security. It was backed up with a .357 revolver in my pocket. Just my two cents. An AR or AK would not have done any better.
I'm sorry, but while I have nothing against the shotgun and own in excess of 20 pump or semi 18-20" barreled 12 gauge shotguns.... It's just not true.

Cool Jeff Cooper has a short paper in I believe "to ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth" addressing this issue, that a good shooter with a rifle and pistol has no need of a shotgun, and can do more with them vs a shotgun.

Capacity, functioning better in field shooting positions, and many other reasons....

I have a 870 next to my bed, but should I need it it'll be dropped by the time I make my way to the AK between me and the door.
Both have lights, slings, and extra ammo.

The 870" holds 8 and has a cuff holding another 5 .
The AK holds 81 and has a red dot.

I can shoot it with one hand injured or occupied, I have a choice of scooping up a 4 mag pouch or 11 mags on rifle grade body armor.
Faster follow up shots and easier for new shooters. No short stroking

The 870 has a 20 round belt kit and isn't much use past 100-150
OTOH even someone with plates will feel the slug, and it makes pelvic shots much easier.


Like I said, I have lots of shotguns. $80 500's and 3" magnum and Wingmaster 870's for $125-$160 are hard for me to pass up,but.....
(Not hating on your 500, with no milsurps cheap anymore $80-$130 is one of my top recommendations for low income new shooters, and a 20 with polychoke is my small game shotgun.)

The Col made a far more eloquent statement than i. Worth reading.
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Old 10-23-2019, 05:43 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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Originally Posted by bunny man View Post
I went through hurricane Michael and we had no power or water for three weeks. It’s awful dark at night. We had a curfew. That being said, the nuts would come out at night. We spent a lot of time in the front yard with a fire and lanterns as the house was 100 degrees. No street lights. You won’t see anyone until they are 25 feet away. Thankfully I had dogs. At times like that a shotgun is your best friend. Mine was a mossberg security. It was backed up with a .357 revolver in my pocket. Just my two cents. An AR or AK would not have done any better.
You might want to rethink your tactics for the next Hurricane.

Illuminating yourself rather than the bad guys is a bad idea. As you said, you could only see them when they got within 25 feet - but if you had gone out where they were and looked back at your front yard, they could see you there with your lantern and fire (and shoot you if they chose to) from much more than ten times that distance.

Skip the fire and the lantern and get some night vision (even the cheap gear combined with an IR illuminator if that is all you can afford). Sit out there with your dogs and use the dark to your advantage.

An AR or AK would have at least had the potential to have done better - depending upon many factors including how you would have used it.
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Old 10-23-2019, 05:52 PM
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Like I said it’s where you like. It wasn’t shtf. It was a natural disaster. No power or water and pitch black. I don’t see the need to throw 7.62 or 5.56 lead through the neighborhood. Honestly, in those conditions I think against more than one person your flashlight is gonna make you a fine target. You have a lot of fine weapons. And in the dark your gonna get popped from the side with that flashlight by someone with a hi-point pistol. They will thank you for the gear. Having gone through what I did I would never put a flashlight on a gun. Bad guys don’t. And I’m sure not going to go looking for them. Only twice did I have a confrontation. The rest of the time we made into the house. Like I said, I’m glad I had dogs. They alerted when I saw nothing. Yes I got stuff stolen, but they never came in the house. The nuts roamed at night. The thieves stole during the day when we where out looking for supplies. Dogs kept them out of the house.
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:47 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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Originally Posted by bunny man View Post
It wasn’t shtf. It was a natural disaster. No power or water and pitch black. ..... Only twice did I have a confrontation. The rest of the time we made into the house. Like I said, I’m glad I had dogs. They alerted when I saw nothing. Yes I got stuff stolen, but they never came in the house. The nuts roamed at night.
Sounds like the SHTF to me. Most here don't consider a scenario needs to be permanent to be severe.

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They will thank you for the gear.
Did they thank you for the gear they stole from you?

Quote:
I don’t see the need to throw 7.62 or 5.56 lead through the neighborhood.
Neither do I, but you are advocating shotguns - which with OO Buck are throwing 9mm balls around your neighborhood. At least with a rifle your marksmanship can influence how many projectiles just land in bad guys rather than straying into your surroundings. The idea that overpenetration of rifle rounds is a reason to not use them in urban self defence has been thoroughly debunked. That is why police around the US and the world are moving from shotguns to rifle/carbines.

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Honestly, in those conditions I think against more than one person your flashlight is gonna make you a fine target. And in the dark your gonna get popped from the side with that flashlight by someone with a hi-point pistol.
Reread what I posted and you will see that I was recommending night vision gear rather than a white light on your gun.

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Having gone through what I did I would never put a flashlight on a gun. Bad guys don’t.
It is a bad idea to use what bad guys do as your benchmark. Bad guys are mostly dumb. Bad guys mostly get shot.

This thread is about military style loadout for survivalists. Take a look at the guns of our side of the military (the good guys) when they are doing close quarters battle (urban). You will find they have white lights on their guns and they know the tactics of how to employ them safely. But I didn't recommend them in your case, because their use does rely upon appropriate tactics - and that can be hard to get across on the net rather than in good training.

Quote:
The thieves stole during the day when we where out looking for supplies.
So do you get the lesson from that? You need to be prepared/resourced to shelter in place for as long as the crisis lasts. You need different self defence tactics.

Quote:
Dogs kept them out of the house.
Good for your dogs - they have served you well. If you improve your tactics and preparations, you will earn/deserve their loyalty and good service.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny man View Post
It wasn’t shtf. It was a natural disaster. No power or water and pitch black. ..... Only twice did I have a confrontation. The rest of the time we made into the house. Like I said, I’m glad I had dogs. They alerted when I saw nothing. Yes I got stuff stolen, but they never came in the house. The nuts roamed at night.
Sounds like the SHTF to me. Most here don't consider a scenario needs to be permanent to be severe.

Quote:
They will thank you for the gear.
Did they thank you for the gear they stole from you?

Quote:
I don’t see the need to throw 7.62 or 5.56 lead through the neighborhood.
Neither do I, but you are advocating shotguns - which with OO Buck are throwing 9mm balls around your neighborhood. At least with a rifle your marksmanship can influence how many projectiles just land in bad guys rather than straying into your surroundings. The idea that overpenetration of rifle rounds is a reason to not use them in urban self defence has been thoroughly debunked. That is why police around the US and the world are moving from shotguns to rifle/carbines.

Quote:
Honestly, in those conditions I think against more than one person your flashlight is gonna make you a fine target. And in the dark your gonna get popped from the side with that flashlight by someone with a hi-point pistol.
Reread what I posted and you will see that I was recommending night vision gear rather than a white light on your gun.

Quote:
Having gone through what I did I would never put a flashlight on a gun. Bad guys don’t.
It is a bad idea to use what bad guys do as your benchmark. Bad guys are mostly dumb. Bad guys mostly get shot.

This thread is about military style loadout for survivalists. Take a look at the guns of our side of the military (the good guys) when they are doing close quarters battle (urban). You will find they have white lights on their guns and they know the tactics of how to employ them safely. But I didn't recommend them in your case, because their use does rely upon appropriate tactics - and that can be hard to get across on the net rather than in good training.

Quote:
The thieves stole during the day when we where out looking for supplies.
So do you get the lesson from that? You need to be prepared/resourced to shelter in place for as long as the crisis lasts. You need different self defence tactics.

Quote:
Dogs kept them out of the house.
Good for your dogs - they have served you well. If you improve your tactics and preparations, you will earn/deserve their loyalty and good service.
I think you’re missing an important point.

If you want to get “military” about it, then you need to consider if the environment is permissive or non-permissive. In bunny man’s example, he was sitting around with family and neighbors. There’s no need to be a tacticool goofball wearing nogs while carrying around a semi-automatic rifle...
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Old 10-24-2019, 12:15 AM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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I think you’re missing an important point.

If you want to get “military” about it, then you need to consider if the environment is permissive or non-permissive. In bunny man’s example, he was sitting around with family and neighbors. There’s no need to be a tacticool goofball wearing nogs while carrying around a semi-automatic rifle...
He was sitting out in his front yard, lit up by a lantern and fire and carrying a Tactical Shotgun (Mossberg Security).

How is that less tacticool than an AR or AK?

He admits he couldn't see anything further than 25 feet (I am hoping that you and he can understand the big problem with that).

How is that a better idea than being hidden (by the darkness), being able to see threats at a distance and that can't see you and being able to selectively place projectiles from a rifle (if it comes to that)?

And you made up the part about him being with his neighbors.....and I think you missed the title of the thread.

Gunfights are a serious matter - people should not dismiss things (including both gear and tactics) that give you even a small advantage, let alone a large one.

AR/AK vs shotgun or repeating rifle = Big Advantage
Night Vision = Big Advantage
Suppressor = Big Advantage
Good tactical training/skillset = Big Advantage
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Old 10-27-2019, 12:32 PM
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I'm just seeing this. OP, go get training from some one reputable like Larry Vickers. In class you will learn a lot about what gear you already have and seeing what works and doesn't work for you and others in the class will help you think through your "ideal" setup. 99% of people on YouTube have no idea what they are talking about and the same goes for forums. Proper instruction + first hand experience=valuable lessons.
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Old 10-27-2019, 03:13 PM
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Not that great of an idea setting out front getting blinded by white light (fire, lantern, what have you).

Better idea setting up shielding from the white light & setting back behind such.

Far better idea simply not advertising after dark.

However if one must (say a multi-family gathering), do so in a semi-secure area. For simplicity sake, a semi-secure back yard, with folks on watch. Both out front & outside the semi-secure area of the blinding white light, without being silhouetted.

Kiddos & such can still enjoy the innocent illusion of safety.

That’s for a “low risk” type deal of a simple extended power outage.

If “folk” are out and about stealing stuff at night & when no one’s home, no reason to make things easy for them, nor make oneself an easy target for whence things escalate.

Pretty simple really.

FRS radios are pretty inexpensive these days, as are NV monoculars. Hardly tacticool, just simply good sense as part of an intelligent safety envelope, if one cares for there loved ones.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:39 AM
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Read 3 pages and fast forwarded to the end...............You guys are screwing with me right? This aint a real thread? Right? Oh mannnnnnnnnn full on funny...I hope...If not full on garbage...jeebus
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:43 AM
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Read 3 pages and fast forwarded to the end...............You guys are screwing with me right? This aint a real thread? Right? Oh mannnnnnnnnn full on funny...I hope...If not full on garbage...jeebus
The OP left the forum but yes he was serious and it was hilarious.

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Old 10-30-2019, 04:15 PM
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Gonna try to help you out the best I can...

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I can't really think of 5 different senarios off the top of my head, but Im mainly worried about the combination of world politics, environmental changes in recent years, and the very real and imminent conflicts that will occur when all the oil reserves begin to dry up.

Because of the economy and the way of life in basically every super-power country, wars over oil when supplies start running out is absolutely guaranteed to happen, at some point. Whether or not this will happen within my lifetime can only be guessed at, but will likely lead to a grid-down and supply shortages due to the entire infrastructure relying so heavily on oil for machinery to run everything.

I heavily believe that oil alone will eventually cause a World War III senario as the militaries around the world also heavily rely on oil to supply their machinery and they will be forced into conflict over the last of the reserves.

Keep thinking. Earth quake, EMP, political unrest, pandemic outbreak, economic collapse, (for any reason) It's all out there on the web...

In any event, I live in a fairly dense part of Salt Lake City, so bugging out is really my only option. Staying in a big city in times of crisis is obviously not a good idea. So I will grab food, supplies, water, firearms, pack them into my car with a full tank and head into the mountains for the wildlife availability.

Here's where you run into your first problem. Thousands of people from the area have that same exact plan. The mountains will not be the secluded utopia you think. It will be a crowded refuge camp. (or a series of small camps) BUT, let's be positive and say you just happened to find a secluded spot... What survival skills do you have? When living in the wilderness, the best thing you can bring with you, is skills. Can you build shelter? How about a fire? Can you find, and purify water? If you do get yourself some wild animal, can you skin it, cook it, smoke the meat so it lasts? You know how to trap? It's quiet, and doesn't use ammo. What plants are edible in your area? What ones are dangerous...? These are the types of skills you need. Start learning now.

I am alone and will probably only have my girlfriend with me at first, but we may possibly join up with some of her extended family. All of my family lives in Colorado. We will probably attempt to be accepted into a small rural community. From there, defenses and rationing of supplies will be established. Luckily my car is a very economical 2017 Jetta capable of 45 MPG so while its obviously limited offroad, I have taken it down some trails and honestly, ride height is sufficient for alot more than you would think. Of course in a SHTF senario I would no longer care about denting the panels lol, but eventually we will run out of fuel and be unable to find anymore fuel and will no longer have the advantage of transportation of supplies, and may be forced to ditch some items at that point.

Fuel economy is good, but ride height means zero if you only have one drive axle, and no locking diff on that axle. Any off road detours could be your departure point on foot. Thought about maybe bicycles? A decent mountain bike can go a lot of places.

I plan to carry a large duffle bag and a backpack on foot, with as much food and water as possible, and about 500 rounds of larger caliber ammo with 1000 rounds of smaller caliber, and proceed on foot until we find a suitable place to "set up shop". Then, we simply do our best to survive. I could possibly carry a second duffle bag but Im looking at a heavier loadout already and would rather have a free hand for firearm use in an emergency.

You got pretty defensive earlier in the thread about how "normal" your loadout was for the military on patrols. Keep in mind that when we were on patrol... that was our "fighting load" NOT our "sustainment load". We weren't humping a butt load of food, 500 or 1,000 rds, ... bla, bla the kitchen sink. This is a load we carry to complete that mission only. With an entire Army to support us, we have more ammo brought to us. Same for food, water... You're talking about a survive on your own with no outside help deal... THIS is why you are getting so much flack. If you aren't going to war. ACTUAL war, going out with the mission of looking for, then closing with and destroying the enemy... you don't need all that crap. In a survival situation, the best way to win a firefight, is to avoid one. You arm yourself in the knowlage that you may not always be able to avoid the fight, NOT that you're going out looking for one... You thing you're gonna carry a full combat load, AND a sustainment pack, AND a large duffle bag, AND be ready for a firefight? "with as much food and water as possible" Really? Remember those skills I talked about? If you know how to find food, and water... you don't have to carry as much.


Luckily the state of Utah has none of those new restrictions that other states are facing such as limited magazine capacity, a strong part of the reason why I want to go ahead and start purchasing firearms before the issue starts spreading to the more lax states.
Now, there is nothing wrong with having a rig for combat use. I have one. Most here do as well. Just saying that your "go-to-war" loadout, is NOT the same as your "escape from the big city in a disaster" loadout... Of course you could have all that cached in place somewhere...
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Old 10-31-2019, 01:01 AM
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I was looking at a British military tactical vest that could carry 30 -30 rd mags. You dont get a better ammo load out for your AR than that. I wouldnt want to go patrolling with a full load though.
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Old 10-31-2019, 12:30 PM
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I was looking at a British military tactical vest that could carry 30 -30 rd mags. You dont get a better ammo load out for your AR than that. I wouldnt want to go patrolling with a full load though.
No wonder you're ex army lol.

In the army patrolling with a full load out was standard.

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Old 10-31-2019, 01:55 PM
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No wonder you're ex army lol.

In the army patrolling with a full load out was standard.

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Load was also 7-10, not 31
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Old 10-31-2019, 06:32 PM
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No wonder you're ex army lol.

In the army patrolling with a full load out was standard.

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Im 62 now . 30 - 30 rd mags for a dug in position sure but that plus water, plates and all the other trimmings now would be too much now for patrolling .
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