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Old 08-26-2019, 07:02 PM
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Coincidentally, this is why you NEVER speak to the police without an attorney present. Your words can and will be twisted in a way to show admission of guilt.
Yep, you have a right to be silent. It's staggering how many people decline to exercise that right.

Even if you believe you've done nothing wrong it's always best to state you want to fully cooperate, but you'd prefer to have your attorney present before answering questions or discussing any details on the matter.

Even for simple matters like a speeding ticket; you'd better believe that any relevant statements you make to the officer will be noted in his remarks on his copy of the citation. Those comments, excuses, etc., are regularly used in court to disprove any legal arguments made in your defense in the courtroom later.
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Old 08-29-2019, 04:02 AM
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More child abuse/neglect/endangerment/contributing to the delinquency of a minor/allow a minor to possess a firearm/furnishing a firearm to a minor/permitting a minor in a liquor store, etc., etc., etc. on the part of the parent(s) (depending on the state's criteria for various charges)… and a phone call by mandated reporter(s).
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:05 AM
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Yep, you have a right to be silent. It's staggering how many people decline to exercise that right.

Even if you believe you've done nothing wrong it's always best to state you want to fully cooperate, but you'd prefer to have your attorney present before answering questions or discussing any details on the matter.
It's sad that the only thing I fear more than a direct threat to my life is our justice system

So, for our current/former LE members, why is that cops always push to get a victim to talk? Sure, they want to figure out what happened and they of course have reports to write, but this seems like such a contradictory way our justice system works. Victims can be abused if they try and explain what happened or even answer simple questions; this threat alone is the cause for them to just (politely) refuse to answer any questions.

It would be nice if anything said prior to any form of official custody, was off limits in court. Something like the first 24 hours was off the adjudication records and solely for law enforcement to map out the scene of the crime.Victims are often in shock, but their recollection of events is freshest (even if sometimes skewed) directly after an event. If I was a cop, I would want some cooperation to try and piece together the basics of the incident...but not at the legal jeopardy of the potential victim.


Knowing how screwed up that system is, I have known some cops that will weasel info out of everybody and not care a lick for the victim and I've known others that immediately acknowledge the shock of the event and recommend the potential victim to not say or try to explain anything and contact their lawyer if they have one.

As our system is now, identify yourself as the victim, firmly inform LE you refuse to answer any question without an attorney and enter the second biggest threat that ever happened to your in your life...our justice system.

ROCK6
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:01 AM
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It's sad that the only thing I fear more than a direct threat to my life is our justice system

So, for our current/former LE members, why is that cops always push to get a victim to talk? Sure, they want to figure out what happened and they of course have reports to write, but this seems like such a contradictory way our justice system works. Victims can be abused if they try and explain what happened or even answer simple questions; this threat alone is the cause for them to just (politely) refuse to answer any questions.

It would be nice if anything said prior to any form of official custody, was off limits in court. Something like the first 24 hours was off the adjudication records and solely for law enforcement to map out the scene of the crime.Victims are often in shock, but their recollection of events is freshest (even if sometimes skewed) directly after an event. If I was a cop, I would want some cooperation to try and piece together the basics of the incident...but not at the legal jeopardy of the potential victim.


Knowing how screwed up that system is, I have known some cops that will weasel info out of everybody and not care a lick for the victim and I've known others that immediately acknowledge the shock of the event and recommend the potential victim to not say or try to explain anything and contact their lawyer if they have one.

As our system is now, identify yourself as the victim, firmly inform LE you refuse to answer any question without an attorney and enter the second biggest threat that ever happened to your in your life...our justice system.

ROCK6
STATEMENTS are the life blood of investigations.

I worked a LOT of homeycides(over 200 as primary grunt investigator) and "hood" shootings.(well over a thousand shootings in my years) As I was arriving I would turn on my pocket recorder. They were amazing in their dynamics. Either there would be a body(dead or alive) and not a soul in sight, OR, there would be a whole bunch of folks standing around screaming at you about what happened while at the same time you are trying to check the victim, preserve evidence if any and keep the masses from stampeding the scene.
and
Sometimes people would be shouting about WHO DID IT from the crowd while you are otherwise occupied or talking to someone else. Then when you have the chance they are gone or don't want to say anything ...madness. SO, in a calmer time after the necessary players were in place I could review the tape in my car and see what might be worth saving and making note of. Over the years probably had 20+ homicides solved "from the crowd" once the detectives got the lead to chase.

One time we had a triple drug house killing. The vics were all tied up and executed. We were still looking for vics and or killers in the house when the folks in the crowd were screaming out who did it and there were 4 dead. We found the 4th vic in the attic where he tried to hide I guess. There are NO secrets in the hood.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
It's sad that the only thing I fear more than a direct threat to my life is our justice system

So, for our current/former LE members, why is that cops always push to get a victim to talk? Sure, they want to figure out what happened and they of course have reports to write, but this seems like such a contradictory way our justice system works. Victims can be abused if they try and explain what happened or even answer simple questions; this threat alone is the cause for them to just (politely) refuse to answer any questions.

It would be nice if anything said prior to any form of official custody, was off limits in court. Something like the first 24 hours was off the adjudication records and solely for law enforcement to map out the scene of the crime.Victims are often in shock, but their recollection of events is freshest (even if sometimes skewed) directly after an event. If I was a cop, I would want some cooperation to try and piece together the basics of the incident...but not at the legal jeopardy of the potential victim.


Knowing how screwed up that system is, I have known some cops that will weasel info out of everybody and not care a lick for the victim and I've known others that immediately acknowledge the shock of the event and recommend the potential victim to not say or try to explain anything and contact their lawyer if they have one.

As our system is now, identify yourself as the victim, firmly inform LE you refuse to answer any question without an attorney and enter the second biggest threat that ever happened to your in your life...our justice system.

ROCK6
The two reasons to attempt to obtain statements from a potential victim, would be to arrest someone who just committed an unlawful killing, or to keep from arresting someone who just legally killed someone in self defense.

Not attempting to get the potential victim to make a statement, (or noting extemporaneous statements), would be dereliction of duty. While such statements could be helpful or negative for a legally justified defense shooting, they are also often used to convict a guilty person by their incriminating statements made before lawyering up, and being told what to say.

I responded to several homicides where the claim of self defense made on our arrival, turned out to be completely false. It was the potential "victim's" statements that usually clued us to that fact, often blatantly, and helped to convict them later. Before their attorney could point out to their client that what they were trying to claim was impossible according to the physical evidence, "so lets come up with a better story".......

We have an imperfect and adversarial justice system. Law enforcement is charged with doing their best to balance the rights of the victims and the accused. In the case where one of the two parties is dead when the police arrive, that job is even more difficult.

Not making a statement or answering questions after a self defense shooting, is a reasonable course of action, even though you may be arrested and charged.

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Old 08-29-2019, 10:09 AM
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Yep, you have a right to be silent. It's staggering how many people decline to exercise that right.

Even if you believe you've done nothing wrong it's always best to state you want to fully cooperate, but you'd prefer to have your attorney present before answering questions or discussing any details on the matter.

Even for simple matters like a speeding ticket; you'd better believe that any relevant statements you make to the officer will be noted in his remarks on his copy of the citation. Those comments, excuses, etc., are regularly used in court to disprove any legal arguments made in your defense in the courtroom later.
Or recorded on his body cam, which is typically activated automatically on switching on his emergency lights.

I unfortunately worked before the body cams, (I would have loved to have had one), but toward the end of my days in the field, our drunk driving units starting videotaping suspect's during the testing procedures at the station. The conviction rates increased dramatically, as attorney's would counsel a plea after viewing the tape, and seeing their client stumbling, slurring, swearing, and insulting anyone in the immediate area.

Yes, your words and actions in front of the police, can be used against you.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
What he did was justified in my eyes. He just screwed up by saying it was an accident. That's the only thing that may get his butt in a sling. If you take measures in order to protect life or property, own up to it and stick to your guns.
Agree, there’s no such thing as a warning shot unless you count the friend falling down with a bullet in his head as a warning to the others, in which case he DID fire a warning shot
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:49 AM
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Or recorded on his body cam, which is typically activated automatically on switching on his emergency lights.

I unfortunately worked before the body cams, (I would have loved to have had one), but toward the end of my days in the field, our drunk driving units starting videotaping suspect's during the testing procedures at the station. The conviction rates increased dramatically, as attorney's would counsel a plea after viewing the tape, and seeing their client stumbling, slurring, swearing, and insulting anyone in the immediate area.

Yes, your words and actions in front of the police, can be used against you.
ME TOO..
Would have loved to have a body cam for some of the absolutely ridiculous situations we found.
We had had a string of B&Es in the area where a bunch of heavy industry was located. I was sitting darked out backed into a RR yard when I saw a car shut off its lights then ghost down the back road behind a string of buildings.
I called dispatch told them to mark me busy and then went to a tac channel to get another car to meet me.
We give it about 10 minutes, enough time for them to go do their thing and we would be waiting for them.
We run blacked out down the road see the car, then against backlighting we see movement in the car. PARKERS..
So we light them up and this black face pop up along with this weird and strange floppy white arm. HMMMM
We approach, so this black guy is getting back into his clothes.
The girlfriend is a fully...ahhh, accessorized white blow up doll.
SO
as we are getting ID and such, the guy is hugely embarrassed etc, we find he has his own apartment.
ALSO
since other cars had monitored our call out there were more and more cars slowly coming in blacked out because we hadn't called them off and we were just too engaged in our "investigation" So, by the time we get to this part there are maybe 10-12 other cops joining in.

We ask him, "WHY out in public when you have your own place?"
His answer...
you CANNOT ever make up stuff like this.
he says...

"BECAUSE IT IS MORE LIKE A DATE."

By now we are laughing so hard we can hardly stand up.
Finally dispatch is getting worried and I let them know it is OK
we break it up and let Romeo and Julliette go on their way.

Something like that would be good for a billion YOutube hits.
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:07 PM
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Yep, you have a right to be silent. It's staggering how many people decline to exercise that right.



Even if you believe you've done nothing wrong it's always best to state you want to fully cooperate, but you'd prefer to have your attorney present before answering questions or discussing any details on the matter.



Even for simple matters like a speeding ticket; you'd better believe that any relevant statements you make to the officer will be noted in his remarks on his copy of the citation. Those comments, excuses, etc., are regularly used in court to disprove any legal arguments made in your defense in the courtroom later.
And if you don't have an attorney? That a real problem for many of us.

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Old 08-29-2019, 05:01 PM
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And if you don't have an attorney? That a real problem for many of us.

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YOU CAN find an attorney under any slimy fungus covered rock.

The trick is to find a GOOD ONE.
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:24 PM
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Everyone knows everything and everyone would talk, but not put it on paper.


Or, everyone knows everything and no one would talk, and especially not put it on paper


I would have loved to have had body cams or a dash cam for the homicides, arsons, accidents, assaults, robberies, etc. I responded to. In addition to audio/videoing the crowd, it would have made drawing the crime scene(s) easier and documenting the condition of the body(ies)/victim(s), etc. upon arrival. All I had was my personal cheapie digital camera, which made crowd shots obvious, even with some creativity, at least in some circumstances. It would have made sexual assault/rape cases much easier, too.
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:02 PM
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YOU CAN find an attorney under any slimy fungus covered rock.



The trick is to find a GOOD ONE.
My point was more along the lines of, can we all afford to pay for one.

Your freedom and fair treatment of the justice system should not correlate with your financial situation.

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Old 08-30-2019, 07:59 AM
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My point was more along the lines of, can we all afford to pay for one.

Your freedom and fair treatment of the justice system should not correlate with your financial situation.

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NO..IT should not...

BUT you will never see socialized law in our system.

There is a reason some layers get $75/hr while others cost $1000 just to get to meet with them. In law and the practice of it assets are everything... your assets, the attys assets...


When I was working as an assistant prosecutor of our county we had a case where a sex club was discovered and the leader of it actually videotaped himself having sex with his 14yr old stepdaughter, and laughing and joking on camera about it and how he couldn't wait until his girlfriend, the girl's mom saw it. By the tape you could tell this was not the first time this happened by the way the girl was reacting. She was lying on her back watching TV and playing with a puppy while he was "engaged" He was arrested for CSC 1 Criminal Sexual Conduct 1st degree. Being an unemployed dirtbag he got a court appointed atty. who happened to be one of the better ones.
Well, all the other club folks got together and said NO court appointed guy for him. They pooled their money ($20,000 retainer)and hired an out of town named atty, who I knew quite well from my years working as a cop. He was very good. HE showed up to the office, we talked and I asked if he had been told about the tape. "What tape?" I called over the the SD and made arrangements for him to see it right away.
He saw the tape, saw his client, came back to the office and said he was pleading his guy straight up on the charge. No prelim, no trial. The last thing on this planet he wanted was for a jury or a judge to see that tape. Without trial the guy was looking at 20 years, out in 16. With the tape he was in for probably at least 40.

The court appointed atty was pretty upset, as he said, "For $20,000 I could have not taken it to trial also."

In this case the court appointed and the paid would have done the exact same thing.

In other cases though an atty might feel obligated to go to trial because of the situation of being court appointed and it may not be in the best interest of the client.

All attys are not created equal, that is why they get such disparate compensation.
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Old 08-30-2019, 05:56 PM
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And if you don't have an attorney? That a real problem for many of us.
It would be a problem for me too. There are several potential solutions.

-The first would be to network. Do you have an attorney anywhere within your circle of friends, or one of your relatives? If you do, that's the type of person it may be worth your while to remain in contact with, and stay on good terms with them. I'd never ask such a person in circle of acquaintances to give up their time and handle my issues for free, but if you know one they may be willing to give you a price break, or provide services in exchange for some kind of trade.

-Have you ever had to use an attorney in the past, for example, perhaps you got hit by a car and used an attorney to help you negotiate a better settlement from the insurance? Many firms have different specialized lawyers and just because the guy you may have dealt with specialized in personal injury claims, it doesn't mean that there might not be someone else at that firm does criminal defense work.

-Prepaid legal. There are prepaid legal services out there, a little bit like having lawyer insurance. Not exactly like that, but that's a simple analogy to explain it. Some of these plans are as low as $20-$30/month and as a member you're entitled to certain services and consultations each year without paying an additional fee. They can draft a demand letter for you, fight a ticket in court, draw up a will or living trust, etc. Additional services tend to be available at a discounted rate, over and above the basic included services. For the average person, this may be the best option. If you want to try this out, see if any associations you belong to are hooked up with a prepaid legal service. Sometimes professional organizations, clubs, or even credit unions have discounted rates on prepaid legal services for members.

-Public defender. Sadly, for many folks a public defender is the only option. But since it IS available, I'd suggest asking for one if you can't afford an attorney and you're going to be questioned by law enforcement officers.


I was a cop for a short time, and one thing I found during that brief tenure is that people tend to think they can talk their way out of trouble, and all they usually accomplish is talking their way into a set of cuffs.

Especially crooks with extensive criminal records, they often seem to think their vast experience with being questioned by and "handling" cops will allow them to outwit a detective during questioning. What they forget is that their entire lifetime of experience in being questioned by cops probably doesn't amount to the amount of time that detective has spend interviewing suspects during just that month. Almost invariably, the cop has done this more than you.
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Old 08-30-2019, 08:45 PM
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Sadly, there are defense attorneys that promise their clients he/she will get everything taken care of and make sure the client only pays a fine, with no points (in traffic cases), but then do not follow through, or forget to file paperwork, or fail to notify the client how much has to be paid by when etc. This shows up when someone gets stopped and run through law enforcement databases, in which the person has a warrant for Failure to Appear/similar. *Little* warrants, and easily fixed, but it's very time consuming and can prevent someone from getting/keeping a job I wish the warrant(s) were issued on the dirt bag attorneys that take people's money and then derelict their duty


This is very seldom court-appointed attorneys. I'm *assuming* someone holds their feet to the fire.
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Old 08-31-2019, 02:26 AM
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Thanks. Only reason I asked was a case my wife was involved with as a juror. The defendant had his CCW permit but initiated a conflict with another individual who had threatened him in the past. The other guy took the bait, but only made verbal threats and then turned around to walk away, but then the defendant proceeded to pull his 1911, shoot him in the back and when the other guy fell face first, continue to unload his magazine into his back. Ironically, the autopsy showed 10 gunshot wounds from 7 shots fired...the ricochets off the pavement resulted in additional gun shot wounds when the guy was face down on the ground...

Bottom line, he was convicted of murder (can't recall exactly what degree), but was trying to use justifiable homicide via "stand your ground" as his defense...

ROCK6
YEEEAAAHHHH....
30 years of cop work and I never saw a successful "shot him in the back in self defense" work out too well. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

There are times when a good forensic examination will however work out. Had a homeycide one night I was working. 2 bros get into an argument according to the survivor. And, like the old west it goes to a leatherslap, the dead guy is shot in the front and back. Dead guy holding unfired gun clutched in his cold dead hand. NO witnesses found.
and
the claim of self defense or charge of murder hangs on establishing which round was fired first.

Forensics exam of clothes and autopsy exam concluded the first shot was in the front. The guy walked.

Of course this is all based on the survivor telling the truth, for all we knew he had the guy at gunpoint already and the dead guy went for it in desperation .

BUt since we could not prove that either... he walked. It also didn't hurt that the DG was a known butthead who had caused no small amount of bloodshed and mayhem in the city.[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Didn’t we just have a female cop shoot a guy in the back and get off a few months ago.
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