Shooting with no sights. - Page 3 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-27-2019, 08:09 AM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,407
Thanks: 5,742
Thanked 11,999 Times in 3,956 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
Removing sights from a pistol to shoot is like dismissing the other fundamentals of shooting. Next up we will see videos on stanceless shooting. Wrong grip shooting. No trigger control shooting. May as well if you’re going to shoot with no sights.
Other than "no trigger control", all other aspects are actually very much utilized in scenario-based, dynamic shooting drills. Shooting weak-handed, while on your back should be a level you work towards; including various stances utilizing cover or even shooting from unorthodox positions such as from a vehicle, in a chair, upside or downside in a stairwell, dropping to the ground to get an up-angled shot at a threat in a crowded room...etc. I think the more dynamic shooting I do, especially inside 10 yards, with either handgun or rifle, most end up being very instinctual as the majority of your focus is simply on the target/threat not on your sights. I would say the majority of dynamic handgun drills inside 7 yards is pretty much no sights, just lining up the threat over the slide; and that includes head-shots and of course, shots at the hip when within an arms-length.

Even with a rifle, when in CQB distances, outside of a red-dot, much of it is point-shooting until you can get into a position with cover to take more accurate, aimed shots. The situation should dictate and the closer, more surprising the threat, the more the need for rapid target acquisition and point shooting.

I think a balance of using sights and no sights is a good practice. There are times when you need more precision than point-shooting and if in a crowd with an active shooter and you're the only option, I would trust my sights more than my pointing ability at anything more than very close range.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ROCK6 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-27-2019, 08:57 AM
Dusty Bones Dusty Bones is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 2,063
Thanks: 944
Thanked 1,639 Times in 893 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Other than "no trigger control", all other aspects are actually very much utilized in scenario-based, dynamic shooting drills. Shooting weak-handed, while on your back should be a level you work towards; including various stances utilizing cover or even shooting from unorthodox positions such as from a vehicle, in a chair, upside or downside in a stairwell, dropping to the ground to get an up-angled shot at a threat in a crowded room...etc. I think the more dynamic shooting I do, especially inside 10 yards, with either handgun or rifle, most end up being very instinctual as the majority of your focus is simply on the target/threat not on your sights. I would say the majority of dynamic handgun drills inside 7 yards is pretty much no sights, just lining up the threat over the slide; and that includes head-shots and of course, shots at the hip when within an arms-length.

Even with a rifle, when in CQB distances, outside of a red-dot, much of it is point-shooting until you can get into a position with cover to take more accurate, aimed shots. The situation should dictate and the closer, more surprising the threat, the more the need for rapid target acquisition and point shooting.

I think a balance of using sights and no sights is a good practice. There are times when you need more precision than point-shooting and if in a crowd with an active shooter and you're the only option, I would trust my sights more than my pointing ability at anything more than very close range.

ROCK6
I've done all that. From arm to rooms length and seen others trained as I was do the same. All rounds fired were from the shoulder and aimed. The only thing I've heard instructors say about instinct or point shooting who have survived several shootouts is don't do it. One dont even need to get into a shootout to learn point shooting and instinct shooting is a poor choice to rely on. Just go to a pin shoot. At 7 yards and the speeds the top guys are moving at, every single one of them see the sights covering the pin before the trigger releases. They aren't instinct or point shooting. Properly trained and practiced shooters leave the theatre shooting techniques like instinct or point shooting to the noobs and inept.

My GSP not even an hour ago got into a scrap with a large boar coon that was way too aggressive since it popped up here a few days ago. It took three 230 grain HST bullets to take the fight out of it. All the scraping and dynamic movement between the dog, me and the coon left me with an empty gun. No NY reload as I did have my 9mm on my belt. I took the extra may I took out with me and reloaded from slide lock. By then it was fading fast and died with no more encouragement. Every single round fired, I vividly remember the front sight covering the coon and the rear sight bracketing it. Every single round I seen my sights. At 5 feet and my dog so close, yeah I'm going to bang away "instinct" or "point" shooting. Some rounds fired one handed as I kept my dog from bouncing off me.

Sounds about as smart to rely on as putting a 12 year old in a driver seat and telling them to drive by instinct. Tell them to point the car the way they want to go and mash the small pedal. Most solid concept in diving.

He got a woodchuck too. Them are easily handled by just about any dog. Just wish I woulda got him and the Chuck on video. It was pretty comical to watch.

I'd rather practice enough to use my sights than fall back on an excuse why I'm not skilled enough to us them, at any distance.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2019, 11:07 AM
Area Man's Avatar
Area Man Area Man is offline
Bear Fighter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: North of the 45th Parallel, West of the 115th Meridian
Posts: 1,037
Thanks: 154
Thanked 1,495 Times in 596 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
I'd rather practice enough to use my sights than fall back on an excuse why I'm not skilled enough to us them, at any distance.
Good lord, how can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?

Nobody here, and I mean nobody, is saying "don't ever use your sights".

Of course, everyone practices with their sights. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that. But, as stated in an earlier post, there are other tactics that should be practiced for close quarter situations. And, like was stated later in the same post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6
I would trust my sights more than my pointing ability at anything more than very close range.
Hell, you even quoted his post, disagreeing while simultaneously stating that's what you do!

All that being said, I'm glad you could take time out of your day chasing large male Procyon lotors around your immense acreage to bless us with your presence. Everything about you is remarkable.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Area Man For This Useful Post:
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-27-2019, 11:32 AM
Dusty Bones Dusty Bones is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 2,063
Thanks: 944
Thanked 1,639 Times in 893 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Area Man View Post
Good lord, how can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?

Nobody here, and I mean nobody, is saying "don't ever use your sights".

Of course, everyone practices with their sights. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that. But, as stated in an earlier post, there are other tactics that should be practiced for close quarter situations. And, like was stated later in the same post: Hell, you even quoted his post, disagreeing while simultaneously stating that's what you do!

All that being said, I'm glad you could take time out of your day chasing large male Procyon lotors around your immense acreage to bless us with your presence. Everything about you is remarkable.
They indeed didnít say never use your sights. Iím saying to those who believe youíll ditch the sights in up close action that they havenít trained right and more important practice properly. When time comes you will do as youíve trained without even thinking about it. If a couple jokers here say youíll miss the sights in close up action and they did in real action, they havenít practiced enough. If they practice with no sights then they plan on failure. No matter what Iím doing, if Iím shooting im using the sights, I couldnít ignore them if I tried to. Why? Because I default to how I was trained and practice without even a thought. The sights are always there.

They all say use the sights. So use them. To say they donít recall using sights then they arenít practicing or training proper.

Too easy.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-27-2019, 12:58 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,449 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
It was a video to prove a technique. Nobody's saying that you should take the sights off your gun. They just happened to be off on his as he was changing them; or one of them, and took the other off just for demonstration.

Kind of like putting your hand through a pile of bricks. A karateka knows he will never rumble with a wall; but it sure is a cool way of showing power and conditioning.
Dusty sees what he wants to see and thinks things should be. Understanding whats being discussed has usually has nothing to do with what hes rambling on about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbl51 View Post
Most people I see at the range are not shooting anything like what a real street shooting is going to be like. Int ain't gonna be like a Hollywood shootout. When our friend Al was killed in a mugging, it was a couple of feet. When my friend Eli was shot in the stomach and survived, it was a couple feet. When I had my own shoot, it was arms length and the guy was trying to bash my head in with a crowbar. Maybe three feet from the muzzle to his stomach. At 1am in the moringin an alley, there wasn't much light to see any sights, let alone the time to use them.

In 99% of real world shootings, you don't need sights on the gun. All those night sights, and fancy after market sights are just like fishing lures; designed to get the money out of your pocket and into theirs. Same with all those guns that are too big to fit in a pocket. Sucker bait sales items.
There is a time and place for everything. The trick I think, is being prepared for as much of that as you can.

Usually, when you bring up anything that is a bit different than the norm, and people who have never worked at it to the point of being proficent with whatever is being worked on, will pout and cry its impossible.

I think a lot of that too, depends on the "era" you came up in. Some of us are older, and learned things that are now considered passe, and not current, but they do still work, and work well, if you take the time to learn and understand them. Those who have come in more recently, often have no idea as to what was done before and what still works. Its the "dont know what you dont know" thing again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Yea, that so the people who do it for a living use them!

I've been in quite a few shootins, haji falls down much more when you use the sights!

The glock 23 on my hip is a "sucker bait sale item" and a Jennings . 22 is a good defensive pistol!
Theres no doubt that sighted shooting would be prefered and the best choice, but as others have mentioned, you dont always have the luxury of that choice.

My point here is, try and be as versitile as you can, and be able to make the best use of whatever you have, and however you need to use it.

As you said above, people miss, because they dont train. And that applies to any way you shoot.

I can easily draw and put a burst into the head on photo target at 5-7 yards, all while moving offline as I go, and I can do to on demand, and without thinking about doing it. I do it all the time in practice.

What Im not doing, is training for just "ONE" thing, and then trying to wing something totally different, and the first time Im trying it, is the worst possible moment to try and wing anything.

Being competent and proficient in your shooting, is a life long thing, its not a goal to attain, and then say youre there, and stop. It needs to be done on a regular basis, and you continually learn as you go. There is ALWAYS somethng new to learn and improve on.

You can practice the same thing every time, and convince yourself that youre "good", but just what are you good at? Just that one thing. Id say for most, hopefully, if something goes south, you get an opponent, who stands still, while you take time to aim, and hes wearing a shirt, with a bullseye logo, right where you need to shoot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cbl51 View Post

That Glock on your hip is going to do you no good at all, if you can't get to it because theres already a gun in your face.
This is something that I think is not taken seriously, or even considered by many who carry a gun.

The gun isnt the end all answer here, and in a lot of cases, I think its just a "safety blankie" for a lot of people. They have a gun (and Id bet many are not even close to being prepared with it), what else do they need?

This whole thing is a lifestyle, and they are other components to it. Like in the case above, you may have to deal with something before you ever get to try and get to your gun. And you may even end up with one that's not yours and need to use it.

Theres a bit more to this, than just your gun, and a lot of things cross reference too. So, I think the more you know about as much as you can, the better off youre going to be.



Quote:
Originally Posted by randolphrowzeebragg View Post
The idea is to get emotion out of whatever you're doing and just let your lizard brain take over. Your conscious brain is trying to run calculations that your unconscious brain has already completed because the conscious brain has to multitask. Some researchers believe that idiot savants function using the same process involuntarily.
That "lizard brain" is what I think a lot of people dont understand, or cant grasp. The brain is taking in everything thats going on, its not only "the sights" that it sees, it sees the whole picture, and is keeping track. The more time you put in in practice, so that things are well planted in your brain, the better youre going to do, when you have to do it without thinking about doing it.

You just have to have the confidence to know, that if you let go, and dont try and force things, and just let things happen, your "lizard brain" will have you covered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Many times on many forums I have been excoriated for suggesting that using your sights especially in a high stress situation isnít probably going to happen.

When you are defending yourself against a guy running at you with a knife you arenít lining up sights, your pointing and pulling the trigger.

This is also why I laugh when people call cops poor shots because they only hit the coked up badguy four times out of sixteen.

When I shot USPSA I rarely ďsightedĒ down the pistol, it was more instinctive shooting.
Iím sure those with hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars of classes under their belt will disagree but I simply donít care.
Even guys using dot sights in competition are really only using them to guide them, they arenít taking the time to actually ďaimĒ as most people do while shooting for a group on paper.

Just my opinion of course and Iím sure itís wrong.
I think what it is, is that you either do it, or you dont. Those who do, understand it and know it works, those who dont, have no reference, and truly dont know what they dont know.

The only way to know if its going to work, is to put in the time and effort to know. As with most things, "want" and "cant" are at play here. If you "want" to, youll figure it out. If you "cant", then youll always be right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post

I think a balance of using sights and no sights is a good practice. There are times when you need more precision than point-shooting and if in a crowd with an active shooter and you're the only option, I would trust my sights more than my pointing ability at anything more than very close range.

ROCK6
The balance is exactly it. Being able to, on demand, do whats necessary, to solve the problem, with whatever is needed. And to be able to slip in and out of whatever that is, without thinking about doing it.

But you dont get there, without constant and regular practice.

I think the problem here is, many dont have a balance. They were taught one thing, and thats all they know. So anything else, cant possibly work. And if what you are doing, is not what they were taught, you cant possibly be right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Area Man View Post
Good lord, how can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?

Nobody here, and I mean nobody, is saying "don't ever use your sights".

Of course, everyone practices with their sights. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that. But, as stated in an earlier post, there are other tactics that should be practiced for close quarter situations. And, like was stated later in the same post: Hell, you even quoted his post, disagreeing while simultaneously stating that's what you do!

All that being said, I'm glad you could take time out of your day chasing large male Procyon lotors around your immense acreage to bless us with your presence. Everything about you is remarkable.
Just consider the source here. If the subject was the word "is", it will still be an 18 page train wreck, and by the end, it will be locked down, and no ne will know what was initially being discussed.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 06-27-2019, 03:18 PM
7.5x55 Swiss's Avatar
7.5x55 Swiss 7.5x55 Swiss is offline
Space Force Recruit
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Moon Base Alpha
Posts: 1,106
Thanks: 1,174
Thanked 1,664 Times in 674 Posts
Default

It's not something I go out of my way to practice, but I've done it a few times with handguns no problem. I've not really tried it with rifles though. The closest I've come to trying it with rifles as using the front sight hood on a WASR-10 with heavily canted sights. Worked well enough to get 5" groups at 50yrds
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 7.5x55 Swiss For This Useful Post:
Old 06-27-2019, 03:40 PM
The Old Coach The Old Coach is online now
Militant Normal
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Western West Virginia
Posts: 8,345
Thanks: 2,536
Thanked 17,250 Times in 5,899 Posts
Default

Practicing with my .38 snubbie I never used the sights. What'd be the point? They're only 4" apart. It's a close-in gun, and I could count on all 5 shots being in an 8" group centered in the torso at 15 feet, maybe 80% of the time. And that's one-handed - I also never saw the point of taking time get into a two-hand stance. That'd be fatal if the perp were rushing me.

Bigger guns, say, with 7" or more sight radius, I've never not used the sights, but I should have. For shame. Just because I'm holding a baby howitzer doesn't mean I'd never have a guy at ten feet and closing.

That said, my first defense is never to go anywhere where I might need a sidearm.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to The Old Coach For This Useful Post:
Old 06-27-2019, 03:49 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,449 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
That said, my first defense is never to go anywhere where I might need a sidearm.
I hear this a lot, and always have to ask, just where that is?

Ive lived all over, in cities, suburbs, and rural country, and
in each and every place, bad things happened to good, and not so good people.

Carrying a handgun every minute your awake, no matter where you are, is no different than carrying that pocket knife, Zippo and your house keys in your pockets.


The odds of needing it are probably pretty slim, but the odds of having it, if and when you "might" need it, are very good.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 06-27-2019, 05:16 PM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is online now
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,987
Thanks: 3,840
Thanked 11,178 Times in 4,493 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I hear this a lot, and always have to ask, just where that is?

Ive lived all over, in cities, suburbs, and rural country, and
in each and every place, bad things happened to good, and not so good people.

Carrying a handgun every minute your awake, no matter where you are, is no different than carrying that pocket knife, Zippo and your house keys in your pockets.


The odds of needing it are probably pretty slim, but the odds of having it, if and when you "might" need it, are very good.
You obviously donít live in a true preppier fortress with a moat, minefield, razor wire, steel shutters and anti-aircraft guns protecting the airspace above it.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Israel Putnam For This Useful Post:
Old 06-28-2019, 01:41 PM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,407
Thanks: 5,742
Thanked 11,999 Times in 3,956 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I think the problem here is, many dont have a balance. They were taught one thing, and thats all they know. So anything else, cant possibly work. And if what you are doing, is not what they were taught, you cant possibly be right.
Just to add to your reply; training is constantly evolving with new TTPs and integrating technological advances. Old school is fine and what you learned 20 years ago may still suffice, but it can be pretty humbling when training with a quality instructor(s) on a dynamic range. While many of the basics remain the same, there are small actions and techniques that can make a big difference, both in accuracy, speed, and manipulations such as clearing a FTF/FTE, using various covers from various positions to maximize that cover, magazine changes, round counting, etc.

As I've said, iron sights (or optics) are great and even preferred...until you're too close to effectively use them. Reality and quality training will prove there are no ideal gun-fight scenarios.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ROCK6 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-28-2019, 02:22 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,449 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Just to add to your reply; training is constantly evolving with new TTPs and integrating technological advances. Old school is fine and what you learned 20 years ago may still suffice, but it can be pretty humbling when training with a quality instructor(s) on a dynamic range. While many of the basics remain the same, there are small actions and techniques that can make a big difference, both in accuracy, speed, and manipulations such as clearing a FTF/FTE, using various covers from various positions to maximize that cover, magazine changes, round counting, etc.

As I've said, iron sights (or optics) are great and even preferred...until you're too close to effectively use them. Reality and quality training will prove there are no ideal gun-fight scenarios.

ROCK6
Theres no doubt, a lot of the new things being taught are an improvement, and Im not contesting that at all. Im simply saying, there are things that were current 50-75 years ago, that are, or can still be, very relevant and handy to know, but they seem to have fallen by the wayside, for whatever reason. And I think a lot of that is simply people never being taught them, and not knowing about them.

I just think that those who have learned them in the past, have just a little more to draw from, than those who dont. They may have moved on too, but they still have the knowledge and experience too.

And of course, I would hope you try your best to continue to learn, as things evolve. This is an ongoing, life long thing, and not a goal.

One example where a number of techniques come into play, is moving offline as you shoot. Once you start moving offline, its difficult to hold that Isosceles stance thats so popular today. As you break off to the left, and continue to shoot off to your right and more behind as you go, you cant hold it at all, and tend to break into the old, one arm bullseye type stance of sorts.

Go the other way, off to the right, and you cant maintain it, and you end up morphing through a modified Weaver into a true Weaver.

Being able to just transition through things without thinking about it, is a major help, I think. Everything is a constant adaptation of a number of things, and/or parts of them.

Then again, many may be doing it, without knowing they actually are, or what they are in fact using.

Then you have those who have never done it, and think that the way they normally shoot, will work for everything. Why would they have to change?
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 06-28-2019, 02:42 PM
Dusty Bones Dusty Bones is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 2,063
Thanks: 944
Thanked 1,639 Times in 893 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Just to add to your reply; training is constantly evolving with new TTPs and integrating technological advances. Old school is fine and what you learned 20 years ago may still suffice, but it can be pretty humbling when training with a quality instructor(s) on a dynamic range. While many of the basics remain the same, there are small actions and techniques that can make a big difference, both in accuracy, speed, and manipulations such as clearing a FTF/FTE, using various covers from various positions to maximize that cover, magazine changes, round counting, etc.

As I've said, iron sights (or optics) are great and even preferred...until you're too close to effectively use them. Reality and quality training will prove there are no ideal gun-fight scenarios.

ROCK6
Itís just as important to know when youíre not in a gun fight when you got a gun. The gun holder better know HTH no gun use skills or the guns as useless as the sights if things get that close.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2019, 03:34 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,449 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
Itís just as important to know when youíre not in a gun fight when you got a gun. The gun holder better know HTH no gun use skills or the guns as useless as the sights if things get that close.
Absolutely!

Everyone should have some base in grappling, H2H, whatever you want to call it, and its been brought up before, and people dont seem to willing to want to talk about things like that, and things like retention techniques. Same goes for knives.

But, then again, this portion of the forum is about guns, so it usually seems that guns are the answer to all the problems.

Being able to shoot in as many ways as you possibly can, and with confidence and skill, is important. Sights, no sights, close range, longer range, from retention, etc, its all a part of the whole. Just focusing on one aspect of things, leaves you a bit short, if you need to do something you dont work on in practice to know that you can, and try and make do with just what you know. Would you have been better off knowing more? I say yea, probably, but maybe others are comfortable not knowing.

Or maybe they just dont know what they dont know to begin with.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 06-28-2019, 07:02 PM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is online now
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,987
Thanks: 3,840
Thanked 11,178 Times in 4,493 Posts
Default

Thousands of people with no ďtrainingĒ have put down thousands of bad guys.

Too many seem to picture themselves as operators and spend the time and money living out that fantasy.

What are these people ďtrainingĒ for?
The end times?
The total economic and societal breakdown of the nation/world?
Or a bad guy who breaks the back glass and is trying to get in?


Whatever, Iíd rather spend my time and money learning something worthwhile like adding another restoration project to my garage or workbench...

Just another thread turned into some sort of asinine training, training, training bs fest.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Israel Putnam For This Useful Post:
Old 06-28-2019, 07:19 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,449 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Thousands of people with no ďtrainingĒ have put down thousands of bad guys.

Too many seem to picture themselves as operators and spend the time and money living out that fantasy.

What are these people ďtrainingĒ for?
The end times?
The total economic and societal breakdown of the nation/world?
Or a bad guy who breaks the back glass and is trying to get in?


Whatever, Iíd rather spend my time and money learning something worthwhile like adding another restoration project to my garage or workbench...

Just another thread turned into some sort of asinine training, training, training bs fest.
Hey, whatever. I thought part of prepping was being somewhat prepared. If youre going to have a gun, might as well know how to use it.

But by all means, do what you want, spend your money on what you want. No skin off my ass.

I like to shoot, so working on things like this is just gravy. And its fun, and something is actually accomplished.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 06-29-2019, 05:50 AM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,407
Thanks: 5,742
Thanked 11,999 Times in 3,956 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
It’s just as important to know when you’re not in a gun fight when you got a gun. The gun holder better know HTH no gun use skills or the guns as useless as the sights if things get that close.
While my focus has always been on "situational awareness", there are times and situations where tight spaces, close proximity to others, hand/arm injury, etc. will (and have) impact your basic gun fighting skills and drills. My last job as an advisor put me in close proximity with a heightened "blue on green" threat warnings. My training included several scenarios of just that; not being able to draw my sidearm due to being seated in a vehicle, on a couch/chair, tight stairwells, small/crowded office rooms, strong arm pinned against a wall/door or injured, etc. None of the situations are ideal, but were a very viable threat vector for me. All my HTH and knife-use were to either incapacitate the threat or create enough distance to employ the handgun.

Again, balance is a good thing to practice if you carry a firearm for self-defense and that may include shooting from the hip at three feet, using a blade to create distance, or grappling techniques to immobilize or incapacitate a threat. I like grappling, but the problem becomes your narrowed focus. Creating space and distance allows you more options and a wider assessment of the threat along with visibility of exits or cover. Just saying that HTH shouldn't be more than a few seconds with the focus to immediately incapacitate or break contact/make space to either employ a more lethal means or exit the area/find cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Everyone should have some base in grappling, H2H, whatever you want to call it, and its been brought up before, and people dont seem to willing to want to talk about things like that, and things like retention techniques. Same goes for knives.

But, then again, this portion of the forum is about guns, so it usually seems that guns are the answer to all the problems.
Agreed on both accounts. Even if a gun is the best answer, it may not be accessible given some scenarios I trained on above. Just like many say they use their pistol to fight to their rifle, you may have to use your hands/feet, knife, or improvised weapon to fight your way to your handgun, even if it's just to create enough space to employ it.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ROCK6 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-29-2019, 06:07 AM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,407
Thanks: 5,742
Thanked 11,999 Times in 3,956 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Thousands of people with no ďtrainingĒ have put down thousands of bad guys.

Too many seem to picture themselves as operators and spend the time and money living out that fantasy.

What are these people ďtrainingĒ for?
The end times?
The total economic and societal breakdown of the nation/world?
Or a bad guy who breaks the back glass and is trying to get in?


Whatever, Iíd rather spend my time and money learning something worthwhile like adding another restoration project to my garage or workbench...

Just another thread turned into some sort of asinine training, training, training bs fest.
That's a pretty myopic view. Sure, some (even here) get single-focused on firearms (however, this is a firearm sub-forum), but many here I think understand the balance necessary for a wide-range of survival be it short term disaster to the preparation of a more wide-scale SHTF where defending your self, family, or home may be a top priority.

While I don't think structured "training" is essential, it's a significant advantage if you're prioritized self-defense higher on your list. Some, like you, may not have assessed it as a big priority based on your location and situation...fine, but try to remember not everybody is wearing Israel Putnam's shoes.

I've trained for my career, a job after my career, and as a personal hobby to spend time with my son. I'm no operator, but the application, repetition, and key drills to improve on certain timed-skills are beneficial to me.

But you're right, if the SHTF does happen, there will be a lot of armed, untrained criminals out there killing lots of people. I prefer to be prepared for that type of scenario since all the other basics are covered...I've just seen too many bad people in this world to ignore the need for training and maintaining my skills/drills.

However, I do agree that many spend a lot of money on "stuff", but have little to no experience or training to use them properly or effectively, and it's not just about firearms.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ROCK6 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-29-2019, 10:04 AM
sarge912's Avatar
sarge912 sarge912 is offline
Father of 11 husband of 1
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Northeast Ohio
Age: 67
Posts: 10,042
Thanks: 5,655
Thanked 12,814 Times in 5,402 Posts
Default

I do 'point/instinctive' practice regularly and also encourage others to train that way as well. Hip shooting is usually reserved for 5 feet or less as part of weapon retention drills.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sarge912 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-29-2019, 03:02 PM
PatrioticAmerican's Avatar
PatrioticAmerican PatrioticAmerican is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO
Age: 59
Posts: 1,095
Thanks: 1,731
Thanked 2,465 Times in 726 Posts
Default

If you shoot enough, and not just talk about shooting, the sights kind of disappear anyway. Many smaller guns have worthless sights, so to shoot them requires....well, shooting them until proficient.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to PatrioticAmerican For This Useful Post:
Old 06-29-2019, 06:06 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is online now
Wearing fur underwears...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NW of most; in God's country
Posts: 2,271
Thanks: 4,088
Thanked 2,146 Times in 1,093 Posts
Default

Nobody was faster than Bob Munden, and at reasonable distances he probably drew and fired 2x faster than half of us, and beat the other half for slow fire accuracy while holding that speed! And pretty sure I'm understating his abilities by quite a bit.

I liked the way he put it when describing his instinct shooting. It wasn't "not aiming"; his brain computed where the gun has to be to hit the target and he just did it. Took practice, and he used a full size, full weight .45 Colt, not some pot metal quick draw gun.

Some mention aiming when it's a big pistol, only. By my figuring, it'll take most people more time to line up the big guns sights, due to the more noticeable variation when the sights aren't perfectly lined up due to the longer sight radius.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Tactical Lever For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net