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Old 06-19-2019, 09:16 PM
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Good info guys, I was thinking .308 would be kind of on the light side for what I'm looking for. Obviously the .50 BMG is the best option but it's never going to be a financial possibility. I was thinking 300 Wim Mag was going to be the winner, but an AR-10 is a much more attractive and versatile option. As for mobility, I'm envisioning it being in a hardened defensive position where portability is a secondary concern.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
I was rolling around the idea of an anti-material rifle a few days ago, but after some research learned that the only reasonable options require a precision shot to "deactivate" the driver. So, what's the best rifle caliber for shooting through windshields with minimal deflection or bullet fragmentation? I haven't found much information regarding this.

The longest shot I can realistically expect is 500 yards. That's also the longest distance I'll be able to practice with any consistency whatsoever. Ideally it can do enough damage to cripple a parked vehicle (think long range sabotage) or other equipment, or possibly even penetrate some defensive positions.

By the time I get around to getting such a rifle I'll be able to reload for it, but widely available commercial or even milsurp ammo would be nice. A semi-automatic platform would be also nice, but I don't think it would be necessary.

What you describe above = 50BMG in an M82/ M107 rifle.

Note: I base this opinion from first hand use while in places like Baghdad Iraq ...vs... Things such as VBIED s, where vehicles were " modified " to protect the driver until he was in position to detonate his boom booms.

Other than 25mm M2 Bradley fire, this was one of the better anti material weapons utilized in a one man portable configuration......and would meet your requirements in all your categories listed above and then some.

The obvious downside = cost of rifle, optics, and ammo, as well as weight/ space .....depending on your budget.

A much cheaper / lighter means would be 7.62x51mm in a semiauto or bolt gun of your ptefetence. Milsurp " M80 ball" is fairly easy to locate in bulk, the cartridge itself has much less felt recoil compared to 50BMG, ( With a bit of practise, one can hit moving targets behind auto glass), and you still have a cartridge powerful enough to smash into and thru said target, chest rig full of loaded AK mags, IOTV without plates, the front seat, and be lethal to anyone sitting behind driver......out to your 500 yard limit. Will also inflict " mobility kills" via stationary vics. ....if you know where to place the pill.

Other suggestions..........

1. If you are with a group or team......mass your fires on the target, regardless of caliber/ cartridge. Especially a moving target, and triple that during periods of limited visibility.....such as night time.

2. Distance is your friend. Establish your trigger line at your maximum effective distance ( in your case...500yds) , and choose your terrain to this advantage and/ or..... " shape" the existing terrain towards this goal. ( I prefer a L shaped dispersal while with a group).

3. Angle of fires/ angle of impact should not be overlooked either. The more angle you have, the higher the possibility of deflection. ( It gets much worse if your using pistol cartridges and cartridges such as 5.56mm). Dead on hits via front, back, and better yet...to a vics broadside produce more consistent results in my experience. Also take into consideration the various sloped angles of auto glass depending on the type of car it is.

4. Semiautomatic rifles are the much better tool for this application in every way vs any manual action. Reasons should be obvious. Depending on how your group is armed, any and all of your DM types should have semiauto rifles instead of a manual operated rifle. The smaller your group, the more emphasis should be applied towards the desired semi auto DMR.

Note: Most of our group's " security personnel " are essentially defined designated marksman and armed with rifles such as the one pictured below....

5. Ammunition selection: ( You mentioned milsurp as well as reloading). While M80 ain't no joke vs autos. .....M80A1 is a definite improvement for the types of targets you refer to. Not all that easy to find however. I spent years conducting my own research/ evaluations with the goal to find a " multi purpose" load in 7.62x51mm that does everything well. The current favorite is 168gr TTSX. ( Other pic below shows a factory load via this example)
Overall, it has proven to be the better bullet vs barriers, autos, light cover, certain types of body armor, etc.....as well as a very efficient hunting bullet out to my maximum effective range.

Note: 7.62x51mm M118 LR, M852, 168gr FGMM, and most of the other " match" bullets/ loads are not all that consistent. .. vs auto glass in my experience.

Note: While I wouldn't consider 7.62x51mm to be the absolute " best" cartridge/ caliber for the applications you mentioned above.....from my experience....it is the " best" compromise overall ....and once you add the other important factors in, such as portability along with a sufficient amount of ammunition, a large selection of semiauto rifles chambered for it, current ability to stockpile / reload for it, etc......

Example: 5.56mm in M855A1 or Mk318 pales in comparison to M80A1, 168gr TTSX, or 168gr TBBC when it comes to barriers, autoglass. Especially when the distance increases. With your requirements stated above, you would be better served with the latter . 7.62x51mm is also a better choice vs light cover, as well as less chance of deflection vs various angles of impact concerning barriers, urban construction, thick vegetation, vehicle mobility kills, etc...... Overall......M80 is a better choice imo, and is a lower cost solution vs " barrier blind" 5.56mm.....which in my opinion is a stretch in any case.


Worth a read in regards to this topic.............


http://benandbawbsblog.blogspot.com/...over-into.html


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Fantastic article!
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:59 PM
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I may have found the holy grail:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cDoB5eDz5gE
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:59 PM
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500 yards...against windshields...

You shooting parked cars/think someone sitting in a parked car is going to be an issue? Or do you plan on hitting moving vehicles at 500 yards? If the former, I'd re-consider. If the latter, but the time you have that skillset I hope you do a "Ask me..." thread, because you'll b e a treasure trove of experience and knowledge.
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Old 06-20-2019, 12:07 PM
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500 yards...against windshields...

You shooting parked cars/think someone sitting in a parked car is going to be an issue? Or do you plan on hitting moving vehicles at 500 yards? If the former, I'd re-consider. If the latter, but the time you have that skillset I hope you do a "Ask me..." thread, because you'll b e a treasure trove of experience and knowledge.
"The Plan" is to incorporate the rifle into a layered defense that uses terrain and/or obstacles to slow the vehicle enough to make the shot feasible. 500 yards is the theoretical maximum range I'd have to deal with, if this actually gets put into practice it will probably be closer to 300 yards. Close enough to make the shot easier, but far enough away to reduce the effectiveness of any return fire.

The other possibility is a similar setup but at a checkpoint, where assailants may be inside a vehicle or using it for cover.

I don't intend to execute offensive operations at all if the SHTF but such a weapon would be good for covering a work detail "outside the wire". And if some troublemakers do need to have some "mechanical" or "technical" difficulty in their back yard instead of mine, that's not a bad capability to have.

But again, the rifle is meant to part of a larger defensive system.
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:43 AM
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I seem to remember, back in the 90's, HK had a "sniper" version of the 91 or PSG1 for police and military use against targets behind glass, that had a very high cyclic rate and fired two round "burst". So fast that there was only supposed to be one recoil impulse.

The idea being, that the first round would break the glass, and the second round would hit the intended target.

Dont know if they ever actually sold any, but its an interesting concept.
Unless they thought that second projectile was going through the same hole, (doubtful), that doesn't sound like it would have worked all that well, even with older glass. Much less modern laminated glass.
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Old 06-21-2019, 12:34 PM
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From what I got from the article I remember reading on it at the time, the first round was supposed to break/compromise the glass and the second round would be right behind it without the obstruction.

Im not sure if it was a prototype or if they actually ever fielded it. Sounded kind of out there back then. And what cyclic rate would it have to have, to have one perceived recoil impulse for two rounds? And of 308 yet?

Then again, HK was always trying and coming up with different and whacky stuff back then. Then again, wacky, weird, whatever, or not, their stuff always seemed to work well, and be ahead of the times.

Ive looked around the web a good bit and couldnt find anything on it, so Im wondering if it wasnt just something they were working on and made mention of it then.
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Old 06-21-2019, 01:42 PM
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Double tap that goes through the same hole, not very likely to happen, a double projectile where there is separation between the two in flight. More likely yet still a stretch.


For what it's worth If I'm defending against a car load of baddies armed to the teeth and driving up to my location, they're getting a full magazine of 308 through the glass. Life is precious ammo is cheap. The scenario from a defensive stand point is possible yet not all that likely, from an offensive stand point it is very likely.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:47 PM
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Double tap that goes through the same hole, not very likely to happen, a double projectile where there is separation between the two in flight. More likely yet still a stretch.


For what it's worth If I'm defending against a car load of baddies armed to the teeth and driving up to my location, they're getting a full magazine of 308 through the glass. Life is precious ammo is cheap. The scenario from a defensive stand point is possible yet not all that likely, from an offensive stand point it is very likely.
The OP’s scenario is pretty reasonable, if the baddies stick to driving up, rather than on foot.

Get them all in the vehicle(s) before they displace. Easier, safer. Firing doesn’t stop until the threat is eliminated, so no it wouldn’t be a just a shot or 2...

Would work with stupid baddies. So why not have a system in place for it? Provided coverage is also available for the smart baddies.

Agree, easiest & least expensive to train for would be .308.
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Old 06-21-2019, 05:31 PM
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The smart ones already know better than to just drive up. I agree it is a scenario worth consideration, probably most likely to occur early on. It would not be too far fetched for that kind of a ploy to be a distraction. Which would mean the idiot in the vehicle was expendable and the real attack was coming from somewhere else.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:18 PM
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Two rifles/shooters. Caliber doesn't matter. Fire almost but not quite simultaneously. First bullet to arrive shatters the glass. Second bullet passes through the fragments.
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:46 PM
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Maybe look towards the larger game rifles calibers...338 win mag, 375 H&H...as examples have the reach and power, use monolithic rounds and they probably wouldn't notice the glass? This is speculation on my part, Ive never shot windshields with these calibers.
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:54 PM
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Most bullets that bust glass well have horrible BCs.
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Old 06-22-2019, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
The OP’s scenario is pretty reasonable, if the baddies stick to driving up, rather than on foot.

Get them all in the vehicle(s) before they displace. Easier, safer. Firing doesn’t stop until the threat is eliminated, so no it wouldn’t be a just a shot or 2...

Would work with stupid baddies. So why not have a system in place for it? Provided coverage is also available for the smart baddies.

Agree, easiest & least expensive to train for would be .308.
I disagree.
First of all, hitting a stationary target at 500 is hard enough unless you are practicing all the time and dialed in.
Secondly, how many roads around you actually provide 500 yard visibility?
Thirdly, hitting anything traveling at a decent speed - say 30 to 40 MPH or higher, means serious adjustment between shots. Not easy.
The other issue I have, is how do you ID a threat at 500 yards? Are you just shooting anything near you in a world WROL? If so, save up now and get something FA, preferably belt fed, and a crap ton of ammo....

If you're not going to do that, and are shooting at anything at that range you better have at least a semi auto.
I don't think the better penetration calibers (50BMG, 338, etc...) are realistic choices. Therefore you're really left with 308.

Nothing wrong with that, it'll go through auto glass just fine. But you may dump a whole 20-30 round mag trying to get the wanted hit.

Personally, at that range, I'd be way more worried about stopping the car than the driver. Put those rounds into the front of the car - easier to hit, less room for error- and then worry about the driver when he's moving at pedestrian speed. If the car's armoured, you're hosed until they stop and dismount. In that case, make sure you have a good position and angle.
I mean, you can't count on everything coming straight at you down a straight road where you get perfect head on shots...
Not very realistic.
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
The OP’s scenario is pretty reasonable, if the baddies stick to driving up, rather than on foot.

Get them all in the vehicle(s) before they displace. Easier, safer. Firing doesn’t stop until the threat is eliminated, so no it wouldn’t be a just a shot or 2...

Would work with stupid baddies. So why not have a system in place for it? Provided coverage is also available for the smart baddies.

Agree, easiest & least expensive to train for would be .308.
I disagree.
First of all, hitting a stationary target at 500 is hard enough unless you are practicing all the time and dialed in.
Secondly, how many roads around you actually provide 500 yard visibility?
Thirdly, hitting anything traveling at a decent speed - say 30 to 40 MPH or higher, means serious adjustment between shots. Not easy.
The other issue I have, is how do you ID a threat at 500 yards? Are you just shooting anything near you in a world WROL? If so, save up now and get something FA, preferably belt fed, and a crap ton of ammo....

If you're not going to do that, and are shooting at anything at that range you better have at least a semi auto.
I don't think the better penetration calibers (50BMG, 338, etc...) are realistic choices. Therefore you're really left with 308.

Nothing wrong with that, it'll go through auto glass just fine. But you may dump a whole 20-30 round mag trying to get the wanted hit.

Personally, at that range, I'd be way more worried about stopping the car than the driver. Put those rounds into the front of the car - easier to hit, less room for error- and then worry about the driver when he's moving at pedestrian speed. If the car's armoured, you're hosed until they stop and dismount. In that case, make sure you have a good position and angle.
I mean, you can't count on everything coming straight at you down a straight road where you get perfect head on shots...
Not very realistic.
In a defensive situation I'd have the road prepared as a kill box, i.e., tight curves or potholes that put the target vehicle head-on and moving slowly. Preferably at around 300 yards, the extra (500 yards) is just nice to have. I wouldn't be relying on the one rifle/shooter to stop the threat, just to stop the vehicle and pin it in place while a group armed with more standard weapons engages the any dismounted threats. Again, it's not the linchpin of my ultimate defensive plan, just a force multiplier.
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Old 06-22-2019, 01:32 PM
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Unless you are pouring massive amounts of fire into a soft-shelled vehicle, or get extraordinarily lucky, you are not going to get a mobility kill on a vehicle - at least not one that has anywhere close to an immediate effect. The vast, and I do mean VAST number of mobility kills on a vehicle will be as a result of fluid loss, which goes back to being extraordinarily lucky. You're not going to crack blocks with anything below a .50 AP, and even that is iffy.

In terms of auto glass, a good barrier-blind round in .308 will reliably penetrate laminated glass out to 300 or so yards, depending on angle. SWAT teams around the country have and practice with said rounds all the time. There are currently no rounds out there that will reliably hit POA/POI through laminated glass, and angles make the deviation larger. The key is selecting a round that retains its mass while penetrating, and gathering enough data to know what that deviation is going to be out of your gun, at a given distance, at a given angle. If you are within 1" POA/POI, you are doing great. For the amount of accuracy you demand that may be a non-issue, or vitally important.

Federal 165gr Bonded, Hornaday TAP, Barnes monolithic rounds, and Federal TRU are all decent barrier-blind rounds in 7.62/.308.
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Old 06-22-2019, 01:59 PM
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In a defensive situation I'd have the road prepared as a kill box, i.e., tight curves or potholes that put the target vehicle head-on and moving slowly. Preferably at around 300 yards, the extra (500 yards) is just nice to have. I wouldn't be relying on the one rifle/shooter to stop the threat, just to stop the vehicle and pin it in place while a group armed with more standard weapons engages the any dismounted threats. Again, it's not the linchpin of my ultimate defensive plan, just a force multiplier.
Im surprised that nobody has given any thought towards multiple vics being used, or vics big enough to transport a squad sized dismount element right to someone's front door.

Anywhoos..........

What do others in your group think? If yes....are they willing to establish a " group fund " to support an anti material rifle with ammo, optics, etc...?

At the same time, are any of them using semiautos in 308 now?

Fwiw........ Your group would be better equipped to deal with vics and/ or dismounted movement via multiple 7.62x51mm semiautos vs 1 anti material rifle supported by " other" cartridges.

Once supplemented with a solid counter mobility plan....( covert and/ or overt), defense in depth/ mobile defense/ SnS teams, a QRF, etc.....you may not require a dedicated anti material rifle at all.



Example: A well concealed anti vehicle ditch will immediately stop um once they fall into one. ( Armored or not)
Note: This would fall under covert. Overt examples would include fabrication and emplacement of hedge hogs, and leaving that ditch exposed.

In an economy of force setting.......2 riflemen ( 7.62x51mm semiautos in particular) could be utilized to keep them pinned down until a QRF spins up, and/ or if the vehicle attack turned out to be a diversion...thus.....QRF is free to move and counter the real main effort against your defense.

One example of shaping terrain : If you have the capability , flood a low lying area and turn it into deep mud. This canalizes vics too stay on the road and into the killzone while being a productive countermobility area for any unfriendly dismounts.
Note: A source of water for you and yours, effective method for eliminating dead space, as well as being helpful for those in your group armed with intermediate cal weapons.

Task organization is a whole other topic, and really comes down to your groups actual strength , individual capabilities, and ultimately, thier will to defend what is theirs. In any event, a well equiped, well trained and well led group will have a much higher success rate in the defense compared to what essentially equals the complete opposite. If a dedicated anti material rifle is deemed an asset for said group after " other defensive plans are in place, then a group budget for it could be considered.

11B
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:47 PM
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Good info guys, I was thinking .308 would be kind of on the light side for what I'm looking for. Obviously the .50 BMG is the best option but it's never going to be a financial possibility. I was thinking 300 Wim Mag was going to be the winner, but an AR-10 is a much more attractive and versatile option. As for mobility, I'm envisioning it being in a hardened defensive position where portability is a secondary concern.
For me, I would go with your first instinct, .300 WM would be my choice. Mostly because I already have it and the fact I will be getting solid copper ammo (hunting) for it next week.
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Old 06-22-2019, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
In a defensive situation I'd have the road prepared as a kill box, i.e., tight curves or potholes that put the target vehicle head-on and moving slowly. Preferably at around 300 yards, the extra (500 yards) is just nice to have. I wouldn't be relying on the one rifle/shooter to stop the threat, just to stop the vehicle and pin it in place while a group armed with more standard weapons engages the any dismounted threats. Again, it's not the linchpin of my ultimate defensive plan, just a force multiplier.
Im surprised that nobody has given any thought towards multiple vics being used, or vics big enough to transport a squad sized dismount element right to someone's front door.

Anywhoos..........

What do others in your group think? If yes....are they willing to establish a " group fund " to support an anti material rifle with ammo, optics, etc...?

At the same time, are any of them using semiautos in 308 now?

Fwiw........ Your group would be better equipped to deal with vics and/ or dismounted movement via multiple 7.62x51mm semiautos vs 1 anti material rifle supported by " other" cartridges.

Once supplemented with a solid counter mobility plan....( covert and/ or overt), defense in depth/ mobile defense/ SnS teams, a QRF, etc.....you may not require a dedicated anti material rifle at all.



Example: A well concealed anti vehicle ditch will immediately stop um once they fall into one. ( Armored or not)
Note: This would fall under covert. Overt examples would include fabrication and emplacement of hedge hogs, and leaving that ditch exposed.

In an economy of force setting.......2 riflemen ( 7.62x51mm semiautos in particular) could be utilized to keep them pinned down until a QRF spins up, and/ or if the vehicle attack turned out to be a diversion...thus.....QRF is free to move and counter the real main effort against your defense.

One example of shaping terrain : If you have the capability , flood a low lying area and turn it into deep mud. This canalizes vics too stay on the road and into the killzone while being a productive countermobility area for any unfriendly dismounts.
Note: A source of water for you and yours, effective method for eliminating dead space, as well as being helpful for those in your group armed with intermediate cal weapons.

Task organization is a whole other topic, and really comes down to your groups actual strength , individual capabilities, and ultimately, thier will to defend what is theirs. In any event, a well equiped, well trained and well led group will have a much higher success rate in the defense compared to what essentially equals the complete opposite. If a dedicated anti material rifle is deemed an asset for said group after " other defensive plans are in place, then a group budget for it could be considered.

11B
It's in the "one day" category, the short term plan is simply massed fire at shorter range, with the same obstacles/barriers. The main advantage (for me) of the anti-material rifle is stand-off distance. At 300 yards the A-M rifleman can precisely engage harder targets (in this case, the vehicle's driver) at a relatively safe distance while regular riflemen suppress and/or maneuver on anyone dismounting.

Ideally, the combination of obstacles and high caliber fire will convince any attackers to find softer targets.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:41 PM
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...Ideally, the combination of obstacles and high caliber fire will convince any attackers to find softer targets.
Ideally, absolutely!

I’d always be mindful of them coming back with friends, as you have something you are defending.

With that thought, if your group is large enough, and has enough folks with appropriate skills, then make every attempt reasonable in your circumstances to not let anyone leave.

Such a world would be fraught with difficult decisions, only by today’s standards. Those whom could make them, will have a better chance of surviving.

Think of it like the olden times, where simple thievery was met with swift & harsh penalties.
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