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Old 05-26-2019, 09:25 AM
Nightvisionary Nightvisionary is offline
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Default The New Trijicon VCOG 1-8x28 is a Must Have For A Properly Equipped Rifle



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Man the specs and capability this optic brings to the table are outstanding. This will be right at home on my precision AR with the White Oak Armament Socom barrel and Geiselle SD-E trigger. Anyone else looking at these instead of a Nightforce or Schmidt & Bender?

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/produ...VC18-C-2400003
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:48 AM
lew.45 lew.45 is online now
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I would love to have one but I would have to sell both of my ACOGís to get one. That would leave one AR without glass. I donít think that would be a good decision.
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Man the specs and capability this optic brings to the table are outstanding. This will be right at home on my precision AR with the White Oak Armament Socom barrel and Geiselle SD-E trigger. Anyone else looking at these instead of a Nightforce or Schmidt & Bender?

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/produ...VC18-C-2400003
Given the 1-6 VCOG's lackluster performance, I chose the Nightforce NX8.
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Man the specs and capability this optic brings to the table are outstanding. This will be right at home on my precision AR with the White Oak Armament Socom barrel and Geiselle SD-E trigger. Anyone else looking at these instead of a Nightforce or Schmidt & Bender?

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/produ...VC18-C-2400003

Yeah, all of us here at SB are patiently waiting for summer to hit to put that $2800 optic on our $400 PSA builds
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:22 PM
Measuretwice Measuretwice is offline
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Nightvsionary, what else do you sell that we must have? I am selling pictures of myself in a Speedo that you must have. Only $600, you act rich so that should be nothing.
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:20 PM
Nightvisionary Nightvisionary is offline
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Yeah, all of us here at SB are patiently waiting for summer to hit to put that $2800 optic on our $400 PSA builds
Oh yea, Good point. Forgot where I was posting.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Man the specs and capability this optic brings to the table are outstanding. This will be right at home on my precision AR with the White Oak Armament Socom barrel and Geiselle SD-E trigger. Anyone else looking at these instead of a Nightforce or Schmidt & Bender?

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/produ...VC18-C-2400003

I found the clarity on my nightforce to be superior to all the others I looked at when deciding what to put on my friends M82A1
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:28 PM
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`

It's true, the AR was useless up till now. Now this summer they will finally be worthy of owning!

.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Man the specs and capability this optic brings to the table are outstanding. This will be right at home on my precision AR with the White Oak Armament Socom barrel and Geiselle SD-E trigger. Anyone else looking at these instead of a Nightforce or Schmidt & Bender?

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/produ...VC18-C-2400003
I wouldn't put that POS on my gun.

https://www.tracking-point.com/weapo...m-bolt-action/
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:04 PM
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"Must Have"

LOL

This poor guy. If he was stuck with iron sights he wouldn't know what to do.

.
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:09 PM
PA_Robert PA_Robert is offline
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"Must Have"

LOL

This poor guy. If he was stuck with iron sights he wouldn't know what to do.

.
FFS, when the cable/internet goes out he doesn't know what to do.
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:08 PM
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I'm quite happy with my Primary Arms 1-8. It has the ACSS reticle I like and a price I can afford.
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:20 PM
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I'm quite happy with my Primary Arms 1-8. It has the ACSS reticle I like and a price I can afford.
Primary Arms rocks and I have 3 of their optics and the next optic I get will be one of theirs. My 1-6 is pretty damn awesome and does everything I will ever need it to do. And it's literally 1/10th the price of the optic in the OP.

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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Oh yea, Good point. Forgot where I was posting.
You mean you forgot you were posting in a forum that has regular people in it who actually shoot their guns?

I think those elite Armchair Operators over at https://www.m4carbine.net/ would appreciate your post a lot more.

.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:59 AM
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Next time I need to go 66 ft underwater for 27 days with my illuminated optic, I’ll know where to spend my 3K.

Nothing against Trijicon, just this is overkill for 99.9999999% of civilians. There are many...MANY other choices in a 1-8 for substantially less money.
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Old 05-27-2019, 07:27 AM
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Amazing how an optic very few have gotten their hands on (and which suffers from the same issues as every other 1-8 currently on the market) is now "must-have" in your mind.

Until they can make a 1-8 with an extremely forgiving eye box...something that has really only happened in two 1-6's (and several 1-4's), none of them are "must-haves," other than extraordinarily narrow circumstances. For the vast number of folks out there, 1-whatever scopes live the majority of their life on 1x. If a lpvo doesn't excel at 1x, it is a bust. Nothing in 1-8 or higher excels at 1x, currently.
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Old 05-27-2019, 07:54 AM
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The Nightfirce NX8 or even the Trigicon may be all that and a bag of chips, but the owner user reviews are less than stellar. For $1,750 I expect (nearly) absolute praise and adoration. Not seeing that.
Agree, for less $$$ there are options that make sense. I do not agree with the notion, that not being in lock-step, means other members are dumb-arses.
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Old 05-27-2019, 08:38 AM
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Amazing how an optic very few have gotten their hands on (and which suffers from the same issues as every other 1-8 currently on the market) is now "must-have" in your mind.

Until they can make a 1-8 with an extremely forgiving eye box...something that has really only happened in two 1-6's (and several 1-4's), none of them are "must-haves," other than extraordinarily narrow circumstances. For the vast number of folks out there, 1-whatever scopes live the majority of their life on 1x. If a lpvo doesn't excel at 1x, it is a bust. Nothing in 1-8 or higher excels at 1x, currently.
It's more of a training than hardware issue.

Do iron sights suck at 1x? If your answer is "no", then consider that every single true unity LPVO out there has a larger and more forgiving"eyebox" than irons.
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Old 05-27-2019, 09:04 AM
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It's more of a training than hardware issue.

Do iron sights suck at 1x? If your answer is "no", then consider that every single true unity LPVO out there has a larger and more forgiving"eyebox" than irons.
There are distinct advantages to red dot sights, which is why almost no professionals are running irons as a primary method anymore. One of the biggest advantages is speed of acquisition. That is not present in any of the current 1-8's, particularly in non-standard firing positions. It is present (barely) in two of the current 1-6's (Razor HD Gen 2, and Kahles), and in several 1-4's.

Again, where will the shooter be using the rifle in question? For the vast majority of folks, it will be at 1x. Followed distantly by whatever the top end is. The middle ground is rarely used by anyone. If the optic does not excel at 1x, the huge majority of folks will not be getting the full advantage of running a lpvo. No 1-8 excels at 1x. Not even close.
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Old 05-27-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
There are distinct advantages to red dot sights, which is why almost no professionals are running irons as a primary method anymore. One of the biggest advantages is speed of acquisition. That is not present in any of the current 1-8's, particularly in non-standard firing positions. It is present (barely) in two of the current 1-6's (Razor HD Gen 2, and Kahles), and in several 1-4's.

Again, where will the shooter be using the rifle in question? For the vast majority of folks, it will be at 1x. Followed distantly by whatever the top end is. The middle ground is rarely used by anyone. If the optic does not excel at 1x, the huge majority of folks will not be getting the full advantage of running a lpvo. No 1-8 excels at 1x. Not even close.
No, a LPVO is not going to be necessarily "better than" a RDS at 1x, but with proper training, the margin will be so slim that it's not going to be what wins or loses the day, and for some shooters it may be faster. What an LPVO does that an RDS CANNOT do, is provide PID, and precision at extended ranges, or even more precision at closer ranges. I have indeed used LPVO's on 2-4x.

This video shows how proper kinematics will negate the issue of RDS v LPVO on 1x:


Interestingly enough, I stopped using RDS and began using LPVO's when I actually started shooting my rifles more on dynamic ranges and hunting more, etc. while most fans of the RDS I have met have either never used a LPVO, or never shot on a dynamic range at UKD targets 0-300m in varying lighting, at night, etc.

Here is another comparison:

Pay attention to the kinematics.

Also consider parallax. Yes, it certainly DOES exist with a RDS, some way worse than others, so if you are willy-nilly slinging the dot on target with your RDS with zero cares about centering it, with some RDS, you will get a decent shift. One instructor has even banned the T1 in his classes due to people chasing their zeroes all around. I personally have experience with this, as well, getting about a 3moa shift at 100 yards even centering the dot in my T1, or so I thought. I flipped the FSP up and settled the dot just above the FSP consistently, and the shifting and zero-chasing stopped. Credit to Kyle Lamb for that helpful tip, so if you do prefer a RDS, be ware there is no free lunch, and t hat at close range you can hose with either.
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:52 AM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is offline
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Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
No, a LPVO is not going to be necessarily "better than" a RDS at 1x, but with proper training, the margin will be so slim that it's not going to be what wins or loses the day, and for some shooters it may be faster. What an LPVO does that an RDS CANNOT do, is provide PID, and precision at extended ranges, or even more precision at closer ranges. I have indeed used LPVO's on 2-4x.

This video shows how proper kinematics will negate the issue of RDS v LPVO on 1x:
AR15 Red Dot Magnifier vs 1-4x Scope - YouTube


Interestingly enough, I stopped using RDS and began using LPVO's when I actually started shooting my rifles more on dynamic ranges and hunting more, etc. while most fans of the RDS I have met have either never used a LPVO, or never shot on a dynamic range at UKD targets 0-300m in varying lighting, at night, etc.

Here is another comparison:
AR-15 Red Dot vs Magnified Optic with Sentinel Concepts - YouTube

Pay attention to the kinematics.

Also consider parallax. Yes, it certainly DOES exist with a RDS, some way worse than others, so if you are willy-nilly slinging the dot on target with your RDS with zero cares about centering it, with some RDS, you will get a decent shift. One instructor has even banned the T1 in his classes due to people chasing their zeroes all around. I personally have experience with this, as well, getting about a 3moa shift at 100 yards even centering the dot in my T1, or so I thought. I flipped the FSP up and settled the dot just above the FSP consistently, and the shifting and zero-chasing stopped. Credit to Kyle Lamb for that helpful tip, so if you do prefer a RDS, be ware there is no free lunch, and t hat at close range you can hose with either.
There is absolutely no free lunch. I've been using lpvo's since the CQBSS came out, and have probaly had significant time on about a dozen different ones. Can you train to the point where the downsides are less of an issue? Of course. Will any of the current crop of 1-8 or 1-10's be anywhere close to as usable on 1x as a RDS? Not even close.

Try brokeback prone, or rollover prone at speed with one, under a car, and get back to me. Try using one with a promask...same issue. Basically, try running any of the current 1-8 or 1-10's in any situation where you cannot get a solid cheek weld, and try to do so quickly. The aforementioned Razor HD Gen 2 and Kahles 1-6 are barely capable in those situations.

I am a huge fan of lpvo's, and I have spent a ton of money on them, including 3 Razor HD Gen 2's, a CQBSS, a NF 1-8 ATACR, a NF NXS 1-4, and a Leupold Mk6 1-6. I'm not against lpvo's...I'm against the current crop of 1-8+ lpvo's for general-purpose rifles. It's interesting that you would choose a video of Yeti for your argument - he'd tell you exactly what I just did. The Kahles 1-6 I have time on is actually one of his.

Again - lpvo = good. Current 1-8 lpvo = meh. Regardless of how much you spend.

Parallax is a completely separate issue from eye box. And the guy who banned T1's is Eric Dorenbush, who is PNG'd from SFOD-D, because he is a complete and utter ****bag. His "study" on paralax issues with the T1 have been debunked by multiple sources...none of which have the character or truth issues Dorenbush has.
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