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Old 05-01-2019, 10:43 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
I agree that it sucks but it’s the law. Try doing what you say and you would lucky to live long enough for the police to haul you away.

Not really communist, more like the rancher built the state, wrote the laws, everything belongs to them, nothing belongs to you.
When nothing belongs to you, that's kind of a trademark of communism.

Two ways to look at it; and I'd take a dim view of family being hurt due to some errant livestock. Here and most other places, there is a plethora of cases where the rancher would be found negligent and charged.

My Godfather was in a coma for a while due to hitting a moose. Could have been the same if he hit a black Angus like my Uncle had.

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Originally Posted by Steve_In_29 View Post
You might get shot doing that in AZ. Cattle rustling is VERY frowned upon.

Where we are the rancher WILL shoot dogs (pets or feral) if they are chasing his cattle and there is no consequence for him doing so. In fact it is the dog's owner who is breaking the law in such cases.

We don't ranch but were advised by local law enforcement that due to the danger of packs of near feral dogs, we should shoot any dogs on our property that we don't recognize as belonging to a neighbor if they are acting aggressive.

As the suburbs in AZ expand pushing out into grazing areas people are finding out that they are indeed in an open range State and when they complain about cows wandering into their yard destroying their flower beds/gardens/etc are told too-bad-so-sad...put up a fence.

My neighbor fenced just around his house but not the entire property and the rancher's cattle will pass through his land as they graze.

By the way, cows in India don't roam free because they belong to "everybody" it is because they are worshiped in the Hindu religion and India is far from a communist country.
Absolutely sir. Serious business. Quite a bit of my family and friends ranch, and have to keep their cattle in.

I realize that. Just kind of using a bit of hyperbole to drive a point. Of course a person should realize the rule before you move someplace.
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:38 PM
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When nothing belongs to you, that's kind of a trademark of communism.
I disagree. Communism is where everything is owned by everybody. Open range is where all the land is owned (as far as livestock is concerned) by the ranchers, it's sort of the ultimate in capitalism, a winner take all approach where the first people to develop an area make all the laws, hold all the power.

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and I'd take a dim view of family being hurt due to some errant livestock.
Indeed. I'm an EMT here and I have seen people outright killed by collisions with livestock...and their family billed for the price of the livestock that was hit.

More common is people have their cars totaled and most people here only have liability insurance. The insurance pays for the cost of the animal they hit, but nothing for their vehicle or health costs. People have lost their jobs and homes over hitting someone else's cow out on the highway. You really keep your head on a swivel looking for livestock because you are completely screwed if you hit one.

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Here and most other places, there is a plethora of cases where the rancher would be found negligent and charged.
Thats how it should be, but in open range states they are virtually untouchable. Most make a good faith attempt to keep their animals under control, but the law is fully on their side.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:18 AM
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Missouri is a Closed Range state - meaning the rancher needs to fence in his livestock.

My neighbor finally extended his barbwire fence all the way to the woods. When that picture was taken, he only had 1 line of electric fence up.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:41 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
When nothing belongs to you, that's kind of a trademark of communism.

Two ways to look at it; and I'd take a dim view of family being hurt due to some errant livestock. Here and most other places, there is a plethora of cases where the rancher would be found negligent and charged.

My Godfather was in a coma for a while due to hitting a moose. Could have been the same if he hit a black Angus like my Uncle had.


Absolutely sir. Serious business. Quite a bit of my family and friends ranch, and have to keep their cattle in.

I realize that. Just kind of using a bit of hyperbole to drive a point. Of course a person should realize the rule before you move someplace.
Actually in free range states you own just as much as you do in any other state. You simply have to provide the boundary that marks it as yours. Your yard = your fence.

And free range states are the way they are because unlike places in the East, it takes a huge amount of grazing land per cow out here in the west. Roughly 40 acres per cow, unless the rancher is bringing in feed ($$$$$). Feed that would really increase the cost of beef at the supermarket to you. There is also no way for a rancher to fence in his cattle when most of the land they are grazing on does not belong to him.

Another issue is that states that aren't free range are for the most part raising dairy cows and not beef cattle. Dairy cows need to be controlled due to milking requirements.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:33 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_In_29 View Post
Another issue is that states that aren't free range are for the most part raising dairy cows and not beef cattle. Dairy cows need to be controlled due to milking requirements.
When I read the above, it made me wonder if that was correct....so I found the following:
1) Of the 94.4 million cattle in the US almost exactly 10% are dairy cows - the other 90% are beef cattle of some type (heifers, cows, steers, bulls and day old dairy calves)

https://www.quora.com/How-many-cows-are-there-in-the-US

2) The open range states are: Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New York, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Vermont

https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/u...ef-1-.1-10.pdf

3) The top six states for herd size are: Texas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, California, Missouri - with 40,850,000 cattle between them - of which only Texas with 13,000,000 cattle is open range.

https://beef2live.com/story-cattle-i...ings-89-108182

4) The top six states for milk production are: California, Wisconsin, Idaho, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas of which three are free range states.

https://beef2live.com/story-milk-pro...state-0-111564

So it doesn't look like non-free range states "are for the most part raising dairy cows and not beef cattle".
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:58 PM
Smith,J Smith,J is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardcalibres View Post

2) The open range states are: Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New York, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Vermont

https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/u...ef-1-.1-10.pdf

[
I think you are overstating the number of open range states - even the pdf you linked to refers to those states as “having or had open range laws”

Most previous open range states have implemented at least some restrictions by now
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Old 05-02-2019, 06:15 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardcalibres View Post
When I read the above, it made me wonder if that was correct....so I found the following:
1) Of the 94.4 million cattle in the US almost exactly 10% are dairy cows - the other 90% are beef cattle of some type (heifers, cows, steers, bulls and day old dairy calves)

https://www.quora.com/How-many-cows-are-there-in-the-US

2) The open range states are: Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New York, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Vermont

https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/u...ef-1-.1-10.pdf

3) The top six states for herd size are: Texas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, California, Missouri - with 40,850,000 cattle between them - of which only Texas with 13,000,000 cattle is open range.

https://beef2live.com/story-cattle-i...ings-89-108182

4) The top six states for milk production are: California, Wisconsin, Idaho, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas of which three are free range states.

https://beef2live.com/story-milk-pro...state-0-111564

So it doesn't look like non-free range states "are for the most part raising dairy cows and not beef cattle".
Yes I should have been clearer. I meant that they had more graze and/or they were raising milk cows.

While I can't speak for the rest, in AZ there is simply no way to fence in the herds as most of the land the cattle graze on is owned by the State or Feds and leased to the ranchers. Land that is also used for recreation by non ranchers,
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Old 05-02-2019, 06:33 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smith,J View Post
I think you are overstating the number of open range states - even the pdf you linked to refers to those states as “having or had open range laws”

Most previous open range states have implemented at least some restrictions by now
Agreed.

But in the context of how many cattle in states with open range laws are beef and dairy, including those that "had" such laws just made it more obvious that most cattle in states that have never had open range laws are not dairy cows.
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Old 05-02-2019, 06:43 PM
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Back on the thread topic, I found this video interesting:


If you fast forward to about 0:45, they use Maxtrax doubled up (presumably to make them more rigid) to recover a Unimog (a seven ton 1700L plus whatever the trailer weighs).

This also shows how the Maxtrax can get pushed way down into the ground.

But they got it out (and got their Maxtraxs back) - which is all impressive (even though it looks like they had the winch tied to the landcruiser too).
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Old 05-04-2019, 02:25 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
I disagree. Communism is where everything is owned by everybody. Open range is where all the land is owned (as far as livestock is concerned) by the ranchers, it's sort of the ultimate in capitalism, a winner take all approach where the first people to develop an area make all the laws, hold all the power.



Indeed. I'm an EMT here and I have seen people outright killed by collisions with livestock...and their family billed for the price of the livestock that was hit.

More common is people have their cars totaled and most people here only have liability insurance. The insurance pays for the cost of the animal they hit, but nothing for their vehicle or health costs. People have lost their jobs and homes over hitting someone else's cow out on the highway. You really keep your head on a swivel looking for livestock because you are completely screwed if you hit one.



Thats how it should be, but in open range states they are virtually untouchable. Most make a good faith attempt to keep their animals under control, but the law is fully on their side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_In_29 View Post
Actually in free range states you own just as much as you do in any other state. You simply have to provide the boundary that marks it as yours. Your yard = your fence.

And free range states are the way they are because unlike places in the East, it takes a huge amount of grazing land per cow out here in the west. Roughly 40 acres per cow, unless the rancher is bringing in feed ($$$$$). Feed that would really increase the cost of beef at the supermarket to you. There is also no way for a rancher to fence in his cattle when most of the land they are grazing on does not belong to him.

Another issue is that states that aren't free range are for the most part raising dairy cows and not beef cattle. Dairy cows need to be controlled due to milking requirements.
I was just commenting on the need to control other's animals through your own efforts. Hence the property you reside on is used by others unless you put up fence that will keep livestock out.

In truth, I should have kept my trap shut about it, as the way cattle is ranched down South is something very unfamiliar to the way it would be done up here. And I need to know more about it before commenting.
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Old 05-04-2019, 02:35 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
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Sorry for the derail.

Back on track, I like the idea of Maxtrax, but found them to be pretty pricey.

I usually keep a couple pieces of timber for jacking and putting underneath tires. They are bulky, heavy, and a smooth piece of wood quickly gets covered by mud, and traction is limited.

A while ago I picked up 4 of the green ones (don't recall the brand) at a reasonable price. Haven't used them yet, but they reviewed pretty well.

Used the rubber and cable traction adders, and been somewhat disappointed, especially in deep mud, where they get buried.
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:22 PM
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I’ve used both the maxtrax and the amazon knockoffs. They both worked well in soft beach sand and mud.

I definitely liked the maxtrax better because they stored better and were less bulky. And the knockoffs are made of a different plastic that started cracking after a year on the roof.

Your mileage my vary.
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