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Old 01-22-2018, 03:00 PM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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Originally Posted by mefunkymxw View Post
yes, russians had the concept of sub-sonic supressed AK well before 300 BO was developed... only real difference was that 9x39 was not developed to go supersonic at all... 300 bo is a bit more well rounded in that respect.

the AS Val came out in the late 80s and was integrally suppressed and chambered for that round...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS_Val

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9739mm
honestly, the russians were kind of stupid here, they could have pretty much just shoved a 220+ grain bullet into a 7.62x39 and it would have easily been able to reach 1000-1100fps with a higher BC and better range, still using the same magazines and rifles they were already using.. meaning a small tweak to the gas system and a suppressor or integrally suppressed barrel over existing equipment would have provided a better overall solution

they really over-engineered that one
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
honestly, the russians were kind of stupid here, they could have pretty much just shoved a 220+ grain bullet into a 7.62x39 and it would have easily been able to reach 1000-1100fps with a higher BC and better range, still using the same magazines and rifles they were already using.. meaning a small tweak to the gas system and a suppressor or integrally suppressed barrel over existing equipment would have provided a better overall solution

they really over-engineered that one
they could have, but it could have impacted reliability

doing that would have reduced case capacity pretty severely and they might not have wanted to fine tune the gas system to cycle those rounds on a standard AK

300 bo generally needs a pistol length gas tube to work well on an AR with varying loads.. i suspect a standard AK gas port placement would mean too much of a pressure drop to cycle a standard AK action with really heavy projectiles.
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mefunkymxw View Post
they could have, but it could have impacted reliability

doing that would have reduced case capacity pretty severely and they might not have wanted to fine tune the gas system to cycle those rounds on a standard AK

300 bo generally needs a pistol length gas tube to work well on an AR with varying loads.. i suspect a standard AK gas port placement would mean too much of a pressure drop to cycle a standard AK action with really heavy projectiles.
Not if the chamber throat were lengthened to fit the bullet. But it would still need a faster twist, and the gas system would certainly have to be revised, so it wouldn't be as simple as rechambering alone.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:27 PM
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With the new sanctions against Russia coming this month will it even be available? It's reported that Tula and Uly got it this round. Barnaul and Vympel are safe for now.
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mefunkymxw View Post
they could have, but it could have impacted reliability

doing that would have reduced case capacity pretty severely and they might not have wanted to fine tune the gas system to cycle those rounds on a standard AK

300 bo generally needs a pistol length gas tube to work well on an AR with varying loads.. i suspect a standard AK gas port placement would mean too much of a pressure drop to cycle a standard AK action with really heavy projectiles.
there is still plenty of case capacity, way more than enough to propel a 220 grain bullet at 1100.. considering a 45 super can do the same thing at 28,000 PSI, and has no more case capacity than a 45acp, no need to change the throat size

clearly though the gas system would need adjustment, and you may need a faster twist, but besides the front end on the AK, the rest would still be 100% AKM including the mags.. clearly this would have been much cheaper and easier to do than to completely redesign the whole system and make the AS VAL
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:17 PM
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something else i pointed out before, and you can see it in the 9x39 ballistics chart above is that after 200 yards it drops like a rock.. out to 200 the drop is manageable but the drop triples out to 300 making it exponentially more difficult to land shots past 200, giving 9x39 a useful range of 200... same is true for .300BO.. up to 200 its fine, after that the drop increases exponentially, and with a 45 cal hi point carbine i can consistently hit at 200 as well, but past that its exponentially more difficult with that drop

the point is, bullet shape, ballistic coefficients, etc dont really do much as such low velocities, if youre going with something subsonic, no matter what it is, youre pretty much capped at 200 yards
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:55 AM
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there is still plenty of case capacity, way more than enough to propel a 220 grain bullet at 1100.. considering a 45 super can do the same thing at 28,000 PSI, and has no more case capacity than a 45acp, no need to change the throat size

clearly though the gas system would need adjustment, and you may need a faster twist, but besides the front end on the AK, the rest would still be 100% AKM including the mags.. clearly this would have been much cheaper and easier to do than to completely redesign the whole system and make the AS VAL
i still suspect the gas system limitations is why they just said "lets design a purpose built system"

during the cold war i am sure they were keeping the mass production going on the AKM lines and they probably didnt have the flexibility to take those offline to re-configure them... the AS Val was produced in pretty small numbers anyway, so the juice probably wasnt worth the squeeze.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:58 AM
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Not if the chamber throat were lengthened to fit the bullet. But it would still need a faster twist, and the gas system would certainly have to be revised, so it wouldn't be as simple as rechambering alone.
that might then require a magazine redesign for a longer combined overall length....

justin's initial thought was to just take a standard AK and rechamber it... and i am just trying to get at the fact that wouldnt have been practical due to the gas system redesign and retooling needed
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Old 01-23-2018, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mefunkymxw View Post
i still suspect the gas system limitations is why they just said "lets design a purpose built system"

during the cold war i am sure they were keeping the mass production going on the AKM lines and they probably didnt have the flexibility to take those offline to re-configure them... the AS Val was produced in pretty small numbers anyway, so the juice probably wasnt worth the squeeze.
there is not gas system limitation, its just a krink-length gas system utilizing the same fixed piston operation of the AK, the only difference is the gas system lacks vent holes to bleed off excess pressure because at subsonic velocities that things operating at pretty low pressure... you could literally take a short barreled AK, replace the front end assembly with a closed gas tube, integrally suppressed barrel, and itd work

and if the russians couldnt afford to spare a few moth-balled 7.62 AKs they werent using anymore by 1987, then i doubt they couldnt have afforded design and production of something entirely new either.. the AS VAL was just a poor idea all along, especially when a 45ACP sub gun was more effective at the same task

if you were going to put together a strictly subsonic rifle, i think you can get a .458 socom up to 1050fps with a 500gr round nose out of an 8" barrel which is going to be over 1,200ft/lbs of muzzle energy, more than double what you get out of a .300BO
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
there is not gas system limitation, its just a krink-length gas system utilizing the same fixed piston operation of the AK, the only difference is the gas system lacks vent holes to bleed off excess pressure because at subsonic velocities that things operating at pretty low pressure... you could literally take a short barreled AK, replace the front end assembly with a closed gas tube, integrally suppressed barrel, and itd work

and if the russians couldnt afford to spare a few moth-balled 7.62 AKs they werent using anymore by 1987, then i doubt they couldnt have afforded design and production of something entirely new either.. the AS VAL was just a poor idea all along, especially when a 45ACP sub gun was more effective at the same task

if you were going to put together a strictly subsonic rifle, i think you can get a .458 socom up to 1050fps with a 500gr round nose out of an 8" barrel which is going to be over 1,200ft/lbs of muzzle energy, more than double what you get out of a .300BO
and krinks were only chambered in 5.45 with the associated bbl... additionally i think the as val had an even shorter piston... anyway, prove me wrong, hand load some subsonic 7.62x39 and show me it works in an AK.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:18 AM
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and krinks were only chambered in 5.45 with the associated bbl... additionally i think the as val had an even shorter piston... anyway, prove me wrong, hand load some subsonic 7.62x39 and show me it works in an AK.
what would be the point? i have no use or desire for a subsonic only rifle when a 45acp does about as good at 200 yards and is way cheaper, besides, once ive reached 5,000 rounds with 5.45x39 the 7.62 AKs wont even by my go to rifle anymore, i prefer more velocity in a rifle, not less
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:40 AM
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what would be the point? i have no use or desire for a subsonic only rifle when a 45acp does about as good at 200 yards and is way cheaper.
So a .45acp has the same BC as 9x39 at 200yds? Interesting....
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Old 01-24-2018, 07:35 AM
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what would be the point? i have no use or desire for a subsonic only rifle when a 45acp does about as good at 200 yards and is way cheaper, besides, once ive reached 5,000 rounds with 5.45x39 the 7.62 AKs wont even by my go to rifle anymore, i prefer more velocity in a rifle, not less
nice dodge...
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
there is still plenty of case capacity, way more than enough to propel a 220 grain bullet at 1100.. considering a 45 super can do the same thing at 28,000 PSI, and has no more case capacity than a 45acp, no need to change the throat size

clearly though the gas system would need adjustment, and you may need a faster twist, but besides the front end on the AK, the rest would still be 100% AKM including the mags.. clearly this would have been much cheaper and easier to do than to completely redesign the whole system and make the AS VAL
Why would you need a faster twist rate? The military weapons in this caliber are 1-10Ē (255mm). Heavier donít mean you have to spin faster. Length to diameter ratio determines what twist you need. You can go with a slower twist if speed is high enough to get RPM up but the difference in shoulder fired cased ammo rifles isnít going to be significant enough to make a difference anyway. The commercial round is going to be 278 grains compared to 260 for the military round. The difference in weight is they probably eliminate the air pocket and fill it with lead or a difference in core material. I doubt the jacket is much different from the military round. Just like how lots of 7.62x39 projectiles use the M43 jacket with lead instead of steel cores with a much larger air pocket or a plastic filler at the back like Klimovsk used to do before they stopped making ammo for the non military market.
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Old 01-24-2018, 01:42 PM
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So a .45acp has the same BC as 9x39 at 200yds? Interesting....
did i say that? no, but at subsonic velocities it doesnt matter, both rounds drop like a rock after 200 yards making it exceedingly difficult to hit anything
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:02 PM
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im going to show a chart comparing 9x39 out to 400 yards compared to one with a 45acp load at 200 yards

first is the 9x39 chart i posted on the last page


470ft/lbs at the muzzle
440ft/lbs at 100 yards
414ft/lbs at 200 yards, drop of 42.3 inches
389ft/lbs at 300 yards, drop of 131.29 inches
366ft/lbs at 400 yards, drop of 269.82 inches

and 45acp, with a velocity of 1060fps and BC of .188


574ft/lbs at the muzzle
462ft/lbs at 100 yards
393ft/lbs at 200 yards, drop of 37.91 inches
341ft/lbs at 300 yards, drop of 120.83 inches
300ft/lbs at 400 yards, drop of 255.31 inches

as you can see, after 200 yard the drop increases exponentially, also making it exceedingly difficult to hit past 200 and the difference at 200 yards in energy is 21ft/lbs with the 45acp having about 4" LESS drop given it starts at a higher velocity... does 21ft/lbs seem worth the cost of a new rifle, and expensive, impossible to find ammunition?.. if you just want a 9x39 for the novelty of it, fine.. but it'd be pointless to make such a weapon part of your shtf gear
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:37 PM
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fantastic.. because of all the wolf ammo ive used, i couldnt help but stop and think "gee, i wish i could have a rifle made as ****ty as this ammunition"
You apparently haven't shot much Wolf ammo in the last two decades. It's actually pretty good, if you get the right version.

Wolf .22LR is made by SK in Germany....it's match grade.

I have 2" 25 yard 9mm groups using Wolf black box, without using any rest.

Some Wolf 7.62X39 is/was made in the Tula plant in Russia, some by Barnaul in Russia, and some in Serbia, and in Taiwan, so...you need to be specific about which one you are talking about, or you will be utterly wrong.

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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
...the point is, bullet shape, ballistic coefficients, etc dont really do much as such low velocities, if youre going with something subsonic, no matter what it is, youre pretty much capped at 200 yards
Really? So wait a second here...you thought subsonic was supposed to be used for shooting over 200 yards on some regular basis?

Holy cow...sure, people do it just to see what they can do...but just because some guy races a Miata on a road course, that doesn't mean he thinks it's a Porsche.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:19 PM
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You apparently haven't shot much Wolf ammo in the last two decades. It's actually pretty good, if you get the right version.

Wolf .22LR is made by SK in Germany....it's match grade.

I have 2" 25 yard 9mm groups using Wolf black box, without using any rest.

Some Wolf 7.62X39 is/was made in the Tula plant in Russia, some by Barnaul in Russia, and some in Serbia, and in Taiwan, so...you need to be specific about which one you are talking about, or you will be utterly wrong.



Really? So wait a second here...you thought subsonic was supposed to be used for shooting over 200 yards on some regular basis?

Holy cow...sure, people do it just to see what they can do...but just because some guy races a Miata on a road course, that doesn't mean he thinks it's a Porsche.
either your reading comprehension is quite **** or you didnt read the entirety of the thread, i was questioning the russians statement that the 9x39 was a 400 yard cartridge by pointing out it's **** after 200
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:55 PM
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you were trolling.....
Speaking of trolling
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
honestly, the russians were kind of stupid here, they could have pretty much just shoved a 220+ grain bullet into a 7.62x39 and it would have easily been able to reach 1000-1100fps with a higher BC and better range, still using the same magazines and rifles they were already using.. meaning a small tweak to the gas system and a suppressor or integrally suppressed barrel over existing equipment would have provided a better overall solution

they really over-engineered that one
The Soviets fielded a subsonic 200-grain 7.62x39mm load for decades prior to the development and adoption of the 9x39mm. It was fielded by Spetsnaz troops in various places including Afghanistan. Battlefield experience led them to want a better replacement. It had the same problems subsonic 300 BLK has, small bullet diameter and low velocity. They tried it in combat and didn't like it.
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