Best MP5 clone for the money? - Page 2 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Military Weapons Forum AR15, AK47, SKS, H&K, Galil, CETME, FN/FAL, Tanks, Ships, Jets, Helicopters....

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-07-2019, 03:00 PM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,447
Thanks: 5,827
Thanked 12,120 Times in 3,994 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post
Therein lies the problem.

For small game, predators... 22 long rifle.

Everything else, AR-15, 12 gauge, AK47.... etc.

For my situation in a rural area, 9mm in a carbine / MP5 clone serves no real purpose. Its one of those items I want, but have problems justifying,
Justification depends on utilization, but there's no denying that some 9mm "pistols" are much more compact and handier than an AR pistol:









My best AR pistol can't compete with my CZ "micro" build (similar in size to an HK MP5K/clone) and it's not even close when considering 300+rounds in a small shoulder bag.

It's easy to debate ballistics, but what matters is training and accurate/multiple-fast follow up shots and many of the very compact 9mm "pistols" are more than capable inside 100 meters. Again, application is what's more important.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to ROCK6 For This Useful Post:
Old 07-13-2019, 02:18 PM
mauser6863 mauser6863 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,155
Thanks: 3,001
Thanked 6,156 Times in 1,602 Posts
Default

Two Words, "Body Armor"




Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Justification depends on utilization, but there's no denying that some 9mm "pistols" are much more compact and handier than an AR pistol:









My best AR pistol can't compete with my CZ "micro" build (similar in size to an HK MP5K/clone) and it's not even close when considering 300+rounds in a small shoulder bag.

It's easy to debate ballistics, but what matters is training and accurate/multiple-fast follow up shots and many of the very compact 9mm "pistols" are more than capable inside 100 meters. Again, application is what's more important.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to mauser6863 For This Useful Post:
Old 07-13-2019, 03:44 PM
Kalashnikov47's Avatar
Kalashnikov47 Kalashnikov47 is online now
Trump is Treasonous
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: US-Deep South
Age: 59
Posts: 6,364
Thanks: 977
Thanked 18,201 Times in 4,867 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post
At SHOT show 2018 Palmetto State Armory said they were working on an MP5 clone. They even had a demo model at SHOT I was able to hold and look at. Here we are a year and a half later and still no PSA MP5 clone.

I am getting tired of waiting on PSA, so what would the next best option be?

In the 1990s I had an H&K SP89, and I loved it. My wife and I divorced and she kept the SP89. So first thoughts were to get a PTR short barrel pistol that looks very much like the SP89. Then again, a longer barrel model provides a longer sight radius.

As most of yall know I live in a rural area, so an urban civil unrest situation is highly unlikely here.

The PTR model I am looking at is the PTR 9CT Pistol-PTR 601, which has a 8.86" barrel. However, if I put a pistol brace on it, the overall length goes to something like 24 inches.

Or the PTR 9KT model - which I like the compact size.

At SHOT show 2018 I was able to shoot a Zenith MP5 clone at industry day at the range, and I was not "that" impressed. The Zenith seemed overly stiff and difficult to operate. Maybe with wear the firearm would be easier to operate. For example, the cocking handle was very stiff as compared to my H&K SP89.

The question boils down to:

Wait on PSA MP5 clone, or buy something else?
If you want to go with an MP5 clone then I'd go with PTR, they are made right here in the US, they have great customer service, warrantee and stand behind their products

$1,680.00

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/pro...-9x19mm-pistol

However, I'd go with the CZ scorpion myself

$1,019 on sale...but all models currently sold out

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/pro...pion-9mm-rifle

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/pro...with-flash-can

CZ Scorpion micro...also sold out

$839

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/pro...orpion-evo-9mm

Gun buyer has the CZ Micro for $769 in stock

https://www.gunbuyer.com/cz-scorpion...0-1-91351.html

Buds has the CZ Scorpion for $949 in stock but without the barrel shroud

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...oducts_id/4215

Gun buyer has several CZ scorpion models in stock

https://www.gunbuyer.com/catalogsear...=cz%20scorpion

Classic firearms has the PTR MP5 clone in stock $1,681.00

https://www.classicfirearms.com/ptr-...owback-pistol/
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2019, 04:59 PM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,447
Thanks: 5,827
Thanked 12,120 Times in 3,994 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mauser6863 View Post
Two Words, "Body Armor"
BS.

Unless it's post-SHTF, or LEO, the chances of body armor are minuscule, simply BS.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2019, 05:57 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,450 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
BS.

Unless it's post-SHTF, or LEO, the chances of body armor are minuscule, simply BS.
I wouldnt go quite as far to say BS. I know quite a few people who have/use concealable armor, and they arent LEO's. And thats been going on since about the mid to late 90's.

I still have a couple of vests myself. If I thought there was going to be trouble or was planning on getting into some, Id be wearing it.

Thats one of the reasons I moved from 9mm to 5.56, and really dont see the point to the pistol caliber guns, for anything but plinking. Same goes for shotguns. With the AR pistols, neither really make much sense.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2019, 08:50 PM
Glockpride Glockpride is online now
Prepared
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 342
Thanks: 2,277
Thanked 866 Times in 237 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mauser6863 View Post
Two Words, "Body Armor"
Two more words: head shots
Two more words: pelvic girdle
Two more words: femoral artery
Two more words: neck shot
Two more words: arm shot
Two more words: hits count


I’m mostly just funning with ya here, so just take it easy on me.

Maybe, it’s because I want an AR9 very badly and have for a couple years. And, I already have three AR pistols in carbine calibers.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2019, 07:48 AM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,447
Thanks: 5,827
Thanked 12,120 Times in 3,994 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I wouldnt go quite as far to say BS. I know quite a few people who have/use concealable armor, and they arent LEO's. And thats been going on since about the mid to late 90's.
That's because you know shooters not criminals. Is it possible? Sure, is it likely, no. Everyone has to make their own risk assessment; mine is simply that bad guys with plates is very unlikely.

Besides, if I'm carrying a 9mm "pistol" it's because of size and weight. I won't be going on the offense, kicking down doors, or attacking multiple threats. Primary goal is engaging immediate threats, using cover, breaking contact, and E&Eing out of the area (fighting my way back to a rifle). Defeating the low probability of a threat with armor is not high on my prioritization. The same philosophy applies if I'm carrying my AR pistol on a distance bug-home/out situation.

At the end of the day, everyone has to assess their own risk levels with their choices and plans. For me, in some situations, the compact 9mm-braced pistols fill certain niches more than adequately for me.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2019, 09:11 AM
mauser6863 mauser6863 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,155
Thanks: 3,001
Thanked 6,156 Times in 1,602 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockpride View Post
Two more words: head shots
Two more words: pelvic girdle
Two more words: femoral artery
Two more words: neck shot
Two more words: arm shot
Two more words: hits count


Iím mostly just funning with ya here, so just take it easy on me.

Maybe, itís because I want an AR9 very badly and have for a couple years. And, I already have three AR pistols in carbine calibers.
Two More Words

"Fantasy Land"

Average Police Shootings are 3 meters away, three seconds in duration and have a total of three shots fired. Although there are no comparable civilian statistics, this sounds about right.

So, you're not going to have time to call your shots. If you have some proficiency, you will keep shooting rapidly into the targets center of mass until they are no longer a threat. Hopefully not getting shot by them in the process.

A person will drop to their lowest level of training/proficiency under stress. You really don't train until you can do it "right". You train so you can't do it "wrong" as the body and the brain default to the only way they "know" to do things.

I know you're just, "Funning Me", however this forum may be the only place some people go to for advice, which is a mistake in and of itself.

Regarding body armor. Yes it rare in the criminal world. Yes it has gotten really cheap and is available for mail order, etc. 99.9% of criminals will never use. That being said, 5.56x45 has the ability to penetrate Level III armor with standard ball ammo, which is something 9x19 (Luger/Parabellum) can not do.

Use of body armor by criminals seems to be "Mission Driven" and used for Home Invasions, Drug Deals/Business and pre-planned Armed Robberies, School/Workplace Shootings, etc. Random, drunk, high or street thugs won't be walking about wearing armor.

Note: The only reliable round that can penetrate Level IV armor is 5.56x45 with the M995 AP Ammo, but only from zero to 100 yards. Other than that, its 50 Caliber BMG. Yes Marines, the new 7.62x51mm AP fired from the M-14 can't penetrate Level IV armor at any distance, just like the 30-06 AP which the armor is designed to defeat.

While damaging and/or destroying the enemy's Crayons make seem to be a sound strategy, this appears only to have a devastating morale effect upon Marine forces and may not reliably work against other ground forces, etc.

While penetration of most body armor is not that important for a civilian, combined with the low recoil, flat shooting and addition penetration against hard and soft targets, plus the additional wound damage caused by projectiles traveling at 2,200 fps or greater in the body, makes the round superior to firing a pistol bullet.

Here's a recent video from Forgotten Weapons where they interview Larry Vickers about the AR-15/M-15 Carbines and he talks about them in comparison to the MP5 used in Seals and Delta, etc. Worth a watch, as love Larry or Hate Larry, he has "Seen the Elephant" and lived to tell about it.

Bottom line was the MP5 was found to be sub-optimal for the zero to 200 meter environment and Delta Ditched them for what would become the M4 Carbine.


Think, Be Smart, Live Another Day
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2019, 06:37 PM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,447
Thanks: 5,827
Thanked 12,120 Times in 3,994 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mauser6863 View Post
[SIZE="5"]
Bottom line was the MP5 was found to be sub-optimal for the zero to 200 meter environment and Delta Ditched them for what would become the M4 Carbine.

Think, Be Smart, Live Another Day[/B]
I wouldn't disagree and if I was kicking down doors or looking for a fight, there's no argument. "For me", I see the new "braced-pistols" as just a large off-body CCW that could be concealed on my person with a small shoulder bag or pack. Nothing more than an extended range CCW and my personal limits are less than 150 meters (accuracy is quite good out to 100 meters even with the shorter 5-6" barrels). You just have to be honest with your self about the ballistics and limitations. I also know I can pack my CZ or MPX along with 200-300 rounds in a vastly smaller package than any of my AR pistols. I see it as something that is there if you need it, but easy to keep concealed, while capable of accurately and rapidly engaging multiple targets out to 100-150 meters...and still compact and light enough to sprint through an obstacle course.

The situation often dictates choices. For me, these braced-pistols fit my needs and I'm confident enough it what they provide performance-wise and understand their limitations/capabilities.

I definitely don't need it, but would love a Zenith Z-5P SB Classic (MP5K Stretch style)...I can justify anything if cool enough

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-16-2019, 07:33 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,450 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
That's because you know shooters not criminals. Is it possible? Sure, is it likely, no. Everyone has to make their own risk assessment; mine is simply that bad guys with plates is very unlikely.

Besides, if I'm carrying a 9mm "pistol" it's because of size and weight. I won't be going on the offense, kicking down doors, or attacking multiple threats. Primary goal is engaging immediate threats, using cover, breaking contact, and E&Eing out of the area (fighting my way back to a rifle). Defeating the low probability of a threat with armor is not high on my prioritization. The same philosophy applies if I'm carrying my AR pistol on a distance bug-home/out situation.

At the end of the day, everyone has to assess their own risk levels with their choices and plans. For me, in some situations, the compact 9mm-braced pistols fill certain niches more than adequately for me.

ROCK6
I must have used to run around with a rougher crowd than you.

Most of the people I know with "armor", arent your typical recreational shooters. The arent what Id call "criminals" either, but then again, what is a criminal?

I guess Im looking at the big picture too. You never know who the "criminals" might be, and what you might have to deal with. I look at ANYONE who might point a gun at me as a threat. I dont care what uniform they might be wearing. And if they are wearing one, theres a pretty good chance, theres armor under it.

Im not planning on kicking in doors or assaulting anything or one, but Im also trying to be as broad as I can with as much as I can, and these days, 5.56 is the ticket that allows that.

If Im going to be bothering to carry around something on the order of an AR pistol, Im carrying an AR pistol in a rifle caliber. I already always have a handgun on me.

And with pretty much any of them, anything 15 yards or so in, gets head shot. I dont waste time anymore practicing on COM at closer ranges. It just seems counterproductive, and especially with anything in a handgun caliber.

Hey, we all have to be comfortable with what we choose, and why. Ive been through the 9mm and 45 SMG's pretty heavy in the past, and know them pretty well and what they can do. I realize that the newer "closed bolt" guns of today can be better at some things, Im just not seeing them being better for "most" things, and thats more or less why I dont bother with them anymore.

That Ruger PC 9 I had for a week or so a month or two back, just reinforced that too, and that was basically a 9mm "rifle", not some compact gun.

All I can say is, "What was I thinking?"
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to AK103K For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2019, 08:42 AM
ROCK6's Avatar
ROCK6 ROCK6 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Georgia/Afghanistan
Posts: 5,447
Thanks: 5,827
Thanked 12,120 Times in 3,994 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
That Ruger PC 9 I had for a week or so a month or two back, just reinforced that too, and that was basically a 9mm "rifle", not some compact gun.

All I can say is, "What was I thinking?"
I won't disagree with you there. I guess some of the "carbines" are kind of like modern M1 Carbines; good for children and some of the elderly (not meaning to bash either); however, way to big and heavy for their terminal performance.

I have an older AR carbine set up to take 9mm Sten magazines; it's a freaking brute. I also (stupidly) purchased a JRC take-down that takes Glock 9mm magazines. Concept is nice, weight is ridiculous...it will be sold or given away eventually.

In the much more compact "pistol w/ brace" form, they fill a narrow niche, but they fill it really well; almost a PDW-style niche. I won't lie though, much of their appeal is the fun-factor I don't see them as a CCW or rifle-caliber carbine replacement and while you could easily make the argument for a slightly larger rifle-caliber pistol (with brace), some of the 9mm braced-pistols can be much smaller. You might be able to get a 5.56mm pistol in a briefcase, but can you get 200 rounds in as well?









Again, not ideal if going up against zombies with plates or traversing open terrain with 500+meters line-of-sight, but for some situations, it can be a solid choice if something more than CCW might be needed for range/accuracy and capacity, but compact enough to carry concealed with a combat-load without drawing any attention.

ROCK6
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to ROCK6 For This Useful Post:
Old 07-17-2019, 03:10 PM
AK103K's Avatar
AK103K AK103K is offline
What?
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: In the shadow of the Shade.
Posts: 6,339
Thanks: 6,247
Thanked 10,450 Times in 4,257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
I won't disagree with you there. I guess some of the "carbines" are kind of like modern M1 Carbines; good for children and some of the elderly (not meaning to bash either); however, way to big and heavy for their terminal performance.
The Ruger PC9 was a pretty poor performer all around. It didnt do anything for me, and its certainly not an M1 Carbine. Id say that was an insult to the Carbine!

My MP5 would shoot tighter groups at 100 yards than the Ruger would a 50.

The MP5 would be more along the lines of what you are talking about too. Then again, it was "old school", and about the same size as my one AR with a folder on it, with its collapsible stock closed.
Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
mp5 clone, mp5 for shtf, palmetto state armory, ptr, ptr mp5



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net