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Old 02-18-2018, 09:37 AM
DTAG1307 DTAG1307 is online now
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I have to ďworkĒ on Sunday so it seems like a good use of my time to kick the beehive one more time and respond.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
Now we're getting somewhere! For your edification, fully automatic fire is meant for suppressing an opposing force so that they can be flanked by maneuver elements. I'm personally on the fence about full auto weapons, I've only ever fired one (an MP5). I would readily take that MP5 over my shotgun or pistol for home defense. Plus it was unbelievably fun to shoot. All things considered I think the way they're regulated now is bearable but a little draconian.

Iím just glad to hear someone say ďon the fenceĒ about anything gun related. So many on here are emotionally tied to one side of the debate that they canít consider there could be any compromise. If I understand correctly automatic weapons havenít been banned, the politicians have just found creative ways to achieve the same results without outright bans. Itís a silly politicians game.

It does look like it would be fun to shoot. BTW, I saw a fully automatic shotgun online. Iím getting off track.



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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
I know "they" aren't coming door to door to take my guns. Yet. "They" have to push a lot more so-called "common-sense" measures through first. In other words, the boiling frogs cliche.
I get it about the slippery slope, and there are those who really do believe ďtheyĒ are just a few steps away from knocking on the door. For those worried about the slippery slope, it may not make you feel any better but there are many people like myself who are willing to consider certain legislation, but would yell, scream and vote (early and often), if it did get even near the point of actually trying to outlaw guns.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
Regarding an armed population to keep the government in check: What other last ditch option is there? As a constitutionalist you must be aware of the erosion of our government's adherence to that constitution. If the government decides to disregard the will of the population what do you suggest we do? Ask nicely? The typical bureaucrat and elected official is already out of touch with us. Some, notably Lois Lerner, show outright contempt for us. If the government decides that they should choose your healthcare, how much of your earnings they take, whether you're allowed to have your own car, what you can say, and what information you can access, what are you going to do about it? Vote? At that point they won't care because your vote won't count. Don't say it can't happen here. It's a lot harder to oppress a population when they can kill the henchmen.
I agree with much of this. A lot of people saw Obamacare for what it is, the acorn of what is likely to grow into the largest entitlement in the history of the planet. Yet almost half saw it as some magical way to get their healthcare paid. Even though polls showed most opposed it, somehow he still got re-elected. Why? Because too many people are stupid or apathetic. My point being the politicians are still mostly doing the will of the people. Too many people think they need to protect others from their own poor decisions through legislation, see corporations as the enemy and think somehow the politicians are looking out for the people, or just donít care. We get what we ask for in eroding personal liberties. Which I guess is your point on my gun legislation attitude.

However people on here throw out this idea of an armed populace overthrowing or bullying a government run amuck without giving due thought to what that would ultimately look like. If it did come down to an actual rebellion, it wouldnít be just a bunch of guys like we see on this site banding together to reinstate a less intrusive government. If something that dire went down, Iím trying to wrap my head around the way that plays out. 270 million guns in the US in the hands of various demographics. Many decent people who own them for hunting or home protection, some who have no trust of any authority who would be pretty quick to pull a trigger, rural folks with distrust of politicians or city people, inner city gang bangers who have no respect for anything, racists of all colors, organized extremist groups, and should the prison system fail a couple million prisoners. This diverse collection of people are unlikely to work together to make things better. Hell, look at what happens in some cities when the local sports team wins a trophy.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
And finally, the subject of mass murder and the weapons used. No, you can't typically commit mass murder with baseball bats. But like you said, nobody is coming to take anyone's guns. There's no point outlawing particular guns when there are millions of them in circulation. Trying to solve this by restricting guns is like blowing the candles out after the house is on fire.
You see, this is my frustration. As a result of corporations that many love to hate (gun manufacturers are still for profit corporations) and special interest groups that use propaganda to drive behavior and money to buy influence (yes the NRA is a special interest group), we find ourselves so heavily armed that it is too late to have any meaningful discussion about gun types. How many times have we been told our 2nd amendment right is about to be taken away, yes somehow there are 270,000 guns in circulation?


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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
If we want soft, defenseless targets to stop being attacked they need to be hardened and defended. Regardless of what the next school attacker decides to use he should neutralized as soon as he steps in the building.
I really donít know about this. The same populace that has demonstrated an appalling inability to appropriately handle a voting ballot, being relied on to make snap life and death decisions with a gun? A lot of untrained idiots out there who may just make things worse.


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Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
Of course they wouldn't take that job. Most people want to live to see another day.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
After listening to all the "correct" news sources, was the shooter in the latest massacre using a fully automatic rifle?

Yes or no.
Iím not sure what the correct news source is but itís my understanding he was not using fully automatic. Iíve gotten so numb to these shootings Iím not glued to the TV about them anymore. I think the Las Vegas shooter had a gun altered to be fully automatic. I was speaking in broader hypothetical terms, not just about this event.

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Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
Do you think the AR15 should be banned? Why or why not?
Iíd have to say not. My bans would be saved for the most lethal of weapons and, from what little Iíve learned on here, the AR15 gets attention just because they stuck an ďARĒ on the front of the name. As I said before Iím not really so anti gun, just anti bad arguments, anti closed mindedness and anti extremist.

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Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
If you are a Constitutionalist what part of the 2nd Amendment do you feel is wrong?
There are not a lot of parts to the Amendment. As are most Amendments, itís a little broad and, I believe should be open for limitations. The right to bear arms doesnít have to mean the right to own whatever killing machine someone can make. I donít want a convicted felon to be able to buy a grenade launcher.



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Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
As the MSM news keeps saying, can a person buy a firearm online and have it shipped to their door?

Yes or no.
I donít think you can have guns shipped to you through the mail, but I donít claim to know all the details of the law. I would rather one not be able to because of obvious concerns about verification of who is really getting the gun.

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Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
Do you want to amend the Constitution? If so how?
Not really. I donít think the Constitution has to detail all the specifics around a right. As long as US citizens without a felony have the freedom to shop and collect a wide range of guns designed for various needs I think the spirit of the law is being upheld.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:08 AM
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I work with similar folks here, usually raised in another urban/suburban area and working here now as young adults in thier first professional jobs. My answer is "because they are a **** load of fun to shoot at the range. Learned that in the service". After 16 years of wars overseas and at my age, they don't question that. Usually, they get a confused look and say, "really?" I just laugh and say, "yep, it sure looks scarey but it's probably the most user friendly gun around to shoot. Most folks have one for that reason, fun". That's what I say, but I was a salesman and a really good one at one time. Curiosity and humor are the fatal one-two punch to sell something, and I prefer the soft sell approach so they can sell it for me. Two of my own kids are college aged SJW but they know guns well and can run an AK and AR well, but I added bribery to that in thier early teens with pizzas and subs. Cost a bit, but it worked well. Lots of ways to stay grey and acceptable at work, friend!

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Old 02-18-2018, 10:14 AM
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At Chico Ca. Gun show yesterday (1959 Porto Contract ArmaLite AR10 semi auto with 4 original waffle magazines 3500.00$ )
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by NightOwl265 View Post
These were the words uttered by a coworker of mine, in general chat about the recent Florida shooting.

He's a mild/polite enough young man, skinny jeans, artsy haircut, fashionable stubble-beard, very urban (doesn't have a car or driver's license) and very much indoctrinated by the nanny state: People's Republic of Massachusetts.

As such, he simply cannot comprehend why anyone would own an AR-15. It simply does not compute. So, of course, any legislation that takes them away would be fine by him. I'm sure he imagines that if "guns like that" did not exist, then murderers could not murder.
So when are you and he going to the range?
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:55 AM
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2A/RTKBA is not about Hunting & Benchrest & Trap & Skeet & Collecting ...
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by DTAG1307 View Post
I have to ďworkĒ on Sunday so it seems like a good use of my time to kick the beehive one more time and respond.




Iím just glad to hear someone say ďon the fenceĒ about anything gun related. So many on here are emotionally tied to one side of the debate that they canít consider there could be any compromise. If I understand correctly automatic weapons havenít been banned, the politicians have just found creative ways to achieve the same results without outright bans. Itís a silly politicians game.

It does look like it would be fun to shoot. BTW, I saw a fully automatic shotgun online. Iím getting off track.





I get it about the slippery slope, and there are those who really do believe ďtheyĒ are just a few steps away from knocking on the door. For those worried about the slippery slope, it may not make you feel any better but there are many people like myself who are willing to consider certain legislation, but would yell, scream and vote (early and often), if it did get even near the point of actually trying to outlaw guns.



I agree with much of this. A lot of people saw Obamacare for what it is, the acorn of what is likely to grow into the largest entitlement in the history of the planet. Yet almost half saw it as some magical way to get their healthcare paid. Even though polls showed most opposed it, somehow he still got re-elected. Why? Because too many people are stupid or apathetic. My point being the politicians are still mostly doing the will of the people. Too many people think they need to protect others from their own poor decisions through legislation, see corporations as the enemy and think somehow the politicians are looking out for the people, or just donít care. We get what we ask for in eroding personal liberties. Which I guess is your point on my gun legislation attitude.

However people on here throw out this idea of an armed populace overthrowing or bullying a government run amuck without giving due thought to what that would ultimately look like. If it did come down to an actual rebellion, it wouldnít be just a bunch of guys like we see on this site banding together to reinstate a less intrusive government. If something that dire went down, Iím trying to wrap my head around the way that plays out. 270 million guns in the US in the hands of various demographics. Many decent people who own them for hunting or home protection, some who have no trust of any authority who would be pretty quick to pull a trigger, rural folks with distrust of politicians or city people, inner city gang bangers who have no respect for anything, racists of all colors, organized extremist groups, and should the prison system fail a couple million prisoners. This diverse collection of people are unlikely to work together to make things better. Hell, look at what happens in some cities when the local sports team wins a trophy.



You see, this is my frustration. As a result of corporations that many love to hate (gun manufacturers are still for profit corporations) and special interest groups that use propaganda to drive behavior and money to buy influence (yes the NRA is a special interest group), we find ourselves so heavily armed that it is too late to have any meaningful discussion about gun types. How many times have we been told our 2nd amendment right is about to be taken away, yes somehow there are 270,000 guns in circulation?




I really donít know about this. The same populace that has demonstrated an appalling inability to appropriately handle a voting ballot, being relied on to make snap life and death decisions with a gun? A lot of untrained idiots out there who may just make things worse.




Agreed



Iím not sure what the correct news source is but itís my understanding he was not using fully automatic. Iíve gotten so numb to these shootings Iím not glued to the TV about them anymore. I think the Las Vegas shooter had a gun altered to be fully automatic. I was speaking in broader hypothetical terms, not just about this event.



Iíd have to say not. My bans would be saved for the most lethal of weapons and, from what little Iíve learned on here, the AR15 gets attention just because they stuck an ďARĒ on the front of the name. As I said before Iím not really so anti gun, just anti bad arguments, anti closed mindedness and anti extremist.



There are not a lot of parts to the Amendment. As are most Amendments, itís a little broad and, I believe should be open for limitations. The right to bear arms doesnít have to mean the right to own whatever killing machine someone can make. I donít want a convicted felon to be able to buy a grenade launcher.





I donít think you can have guns shipped to you through the mail, but I donít claim to know all the details of the law. I would rather one not be able to because of obvious concerns about verification of who is really getting the gun.



Not really. I donít think the Constitution has to detail all the specifics around a right. As long as US citizens without a felony have the freedom to shop and collect a wide range of guns designed for various needs I think the spirit of the law is being upheld.

I just have to say that the your post is just about the most stupid post on gun control I have read. You admit, and your post proves, that you really don't know crap about the actual law and the actual Constitution.
  • You don't know if the gun the the kid in Florida used was fully automatic?
  • You don't know if you can order a gun by mail and have it delivered to your house?
  • You think that some government approved list of options for guns you can buy is in the spirit of the law?
  • You think ARs get a bad rep because they stick AR in the front of the name?

Really?

Each and every one of our points shows how ignorant you are and is stupid in its own right. Combine them all into a single post and it's just an encyclopedia of gun-rights, gun-control stupid.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DTAG1307 View Post

... we find ourselves so heavily armed that it is too late to have any meaningful discussion about gun types. How many times have we been told our 2nd amendment right is about to be taken away, yes somehow there are 270,000 guns in circulation?
That's a bit low. Try 347 million as of 2012. Because, people collect them. The hysterical news ALWAYS latches onto the word "arsenal". WTH? What difference does it make HOW MANY? You can only shoot ONE at a time. The people I know have safes full. Variety is the spice of life.

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Originally Posted by DTAG1307 View Post
Iím not sure what the correct news source is but itís my understanding he was not using fully automatic. Iíve gotten so numb to these shootings Iím not glued to the TV about them anymore. I think the Las Vegas shooter had a gun altered to be fully automatic. I was speaking in broader hypothetical terms, not just about this event.
The AR15 is not fully automatic. It just looks like the military version which is. ( or used to be )

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Originally Posted by DTAG1307 View Post
Iíd have to say not. My bans would be saved for the most lethal of weapons and, from what little Iíve learned on here, the AR15 gets attention just because they stuck an ďARĒ on the front of the name. As I said before Iím not really so anti gun, just anti bad arguments, anti closed mindedness and anti extremist.
AR stands for Armalite Rifle. Armalite is the company which came up with the design. All firearms are lethal. An antique .58 caliber black powder Hawken rifle will blow a hole as big as your thumb through you.

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Originally Posted by DTAG1307 View Post
There are not a lot of parts to the Amendment. As are most Amendments, itís a little broad and, I believe should be open for limitations. The right to bear arms doesnít have to mean the right to own whatever killing machine someone can make. I donít want a convicted felon to be able to buy a grenade launcher.
Grenade launcher? Get real. Typical leftist drivel. Tanks, bombs, grenade launchers, F-15s? We're talking about rifles, not a B61 nuclear warhead.

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Originally Posted by DTAG1307 View Post
I donít think you can have guns shipped to you through the mail, but I donít claim to know all the details of the law. I would rather one not be able to because of obvious concerns about verification of who is really getting the gun.
So educate yourself. The gun control act of 1968 ended mail-order gun purchases. So-called "online" purchases need to go through a Federal Firearms Licensee and the required background check.

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Originally Posted by DTAG1307 View Post
Not really. I donít think the Constitution has to detail all the specifics around a right. As long as US citizens without a felony have the freedom to shop and collect a wide range of guns designed for various needs I think the spirit of the law is being upheld.
The instant background check already does that.

Now what? All your concerns have ALREADY been dealt with.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:05 AM
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The Kid did not have a legal transferable Class 3 / NFA Machine Gun / Assault Rifle .
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:17 AM
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I believe he's talking about mental health issues. Often times they aren't reported like they should be, other times it's actually illegal to report them because of privacy laws.

Those privacy laws are a whole different can of worms but I think most of us agree that if mental illnesses were identified sooner and earlier these incidents would happen FAR less often. All told, I think no background checks are better than what we have now, and that universal background checks should NEVER be implemented.
So what if they removed hipaa laws? Report more people the government didn't like? Ban more people from owning guns without a trial and in violation of "shall not be infringed"?

I'm surprised at all the so-called gun-rights people who suddenly think that doctors or the government can put people on a list and make them suddenly gun-free zones and possible targets for what they "might" do rather than what they've done.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:20 AM
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I'm surprised that posters here defend this Kids RTKBA ( 4473 is fixable , process of getting kicked back is too )
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:42 AM
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So educate yourself. The gun control act of 1968 ended mail-order gun purchases. So-called "online" purchases need to go through a Federal Firearms Licensee and the required background check.
I think the confusion for this, and what they REALLY want to eliminate, is the ability to buy an 80 percent lower. While I don't believe we have seen any notable incidents with them, I think it sticks in the craw of people that want to ban these types of weapons. You can also buy all the parts, ammo, and mags for them mail order. That scares them.

My take on it. It is VERY hard to un-invent something.....

I encourage everyone to do a little web crawling and download the 3d models and/or blueprints for an AR10/15 lower....and anything else interesting you can find.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:44 AM
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If I understand correctly automatic weapons havenít been banned, the politicians have just found creative ways to achieve the same results without outright bans. Itís a silly politicians game.

It does look like it would be fun to shoot. BTW, I saw a fully automatic shotgun online. Iím getting off track.
Please show us where and how you would purchase a NEW fully automatic weapon.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:51 AM
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I think the confusion for this, and what they REALLY want to eliminate, is the ability to buy an 80 percent lower. While I don't believe we have seen any notable incidents with them, I think it sticks in the craw of people that want to ban these types of weapons. You can also buy all the parts, ammo, and mags for them mail order. That scares them.

My take on it. It is VERY hard to un-invent something.....

I encourage everyone to do a little web crawling and download the 3d models and/or blueprints for an AR10/15 lower....and anything else interesting you can find.
So change it to 70% lower, or 40% or a simple block of aluminum. Ban aluminum foil and beer cans. They can be melted down and cast into a X% lower.

Where there's a will there's a way.

The perfect way to increase interest and desire in something is to ban it and have it on the "news" 24/7.

Drugs, porn, guns. - Speech.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
So change it to 70% lower, or 40% or a simple block of aluminum. Ban aluminum foil and beer cans. They can be melted down and cast into a X% lower.

Where there's a will there's a way.

The perfect way to increase interest and desire in something is to ban it and have it on the "news" 24/7.

Drugs, porn, guns. - Speech.
That is what I am saying....it is hard to un-invent something.

Heck, you can 3d print this stuff now.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:29 PM
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At Chico Ca. Gun show yesterday (1959 Porto Contract ArmaLite AR10 semi auto with 4 original waffle magazines 3500.00$ )
Is that still going today? I should drive down the hill and take a look but probably won't.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:41 PM
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So change it to 70% lower, or 40% or a simple block of aluminum. Ban aluminum foil and beer cans. They can be melted down and cast into a X% lower.

Where there's a will there's a way.

The perfect way to increase interest and desire in something is to ban it and have it on the "news" 24/7.

Drugs, porn, guns. - Speech.
^^^^This^^^^ I watched a video on YouTube of a guy who made an AK receiver out of a shovel. Are they gonna make us register and clear a background check to purchase shovels too? Itíd be nice if these problems were solved with common sense.
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I'm surprised that posters here defend this Kids RTKBA ( 4473 is fixable , process of getting kicked back is too )
I defend everyone's right to keep and bear arms. Even yours. He just doesn't have the right to shoot innocent people with those arms.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:23 PM
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I just have to say that the your post is just about the most stupid post on gun control I have read. You admit, and your post proves, that you really don't know crap about the actual law and the actual Constitution.
  • You don't know if the gun the the kid in Florida used was fully automatic?
  • You don't know if you can order a gun by mail and have it delivered to your house?
  • You think that some government approved list of options for guns you can buy is in the spirit of the law?
  • You think ARs get a bad rep because they stick AR in the front of the name?

Really?

Each and every one of our points shows how ignorant you are and is stupid in its own right. Combine them all into a single post and it's just an encyclopedia of gun-rights, gun-control stupid.

Well you have me in the crushing grip of reason there, what with the name calling and all. So you would prefer I would be like 99% of the people on the net and act like I am an expert on everything?

I said the I didnít think the kid had a fully automatic. Ė He didnít
Yes I think the AR as in Assault Rifle gives it a bad rap. Learned that from many of the posters on here.

Your post exemplifies the emotion over reason attitude that contributes to the fact that the US has similar homicide rates to a couple of the stans (Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan) but more than 400% of the homicide rate of 47 countries and virtually all with any kind of industrialized success at all. Higher homicide rate than 125 other countries.

Let me simplify. 4 times more people killed here than most of the countries whose leader doesnít wear camo. If we came in 126th in the Olympics would you consider that doing well? We are coming in 126th in the world at not getting people shot.

Keep calling names and reading your NRA manuals while you ďpolish your gunĒ in the garage waiting for the glory days when you arenít on the bottom of the heap. More innocent people will be shot.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:27 PM
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Take away all the Democrat run cities and the US is a very peaceful country.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:32 PM
DTAG1307 DTAG1307 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagnar View Post
Please show us where and how you would purchase a NEW fully automatic weapon.
Thanks to this question I just made a gubmint watch list:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/it...rticle/2636302

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-legal-fo...ifle-in-the-US

https://www.gunbroker.com/Machine-Guns/BI.aspx

I'm not going to invest much more time finding details, but apparently it is legal.
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