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Old 05-14-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by powderandprimers View Post
How do you practice on a regular basis at $1/round? How do you stock enough ammunition at $1/round for survival purposes? I guess if you are wealthy and money is not a barrier then maybe your plan makes sense (for you).
Yup. I can't afford to spend that kind of money on ammo. There are a lot of "preppers" out there who buy lots of **** but don't use or train with it. It's easier to buy all high dollar ammo if you rarely or never use any of it for training. Not necessarily saying that Nightvissionary fits that's category, I don't know him/her.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Really if you aren't paying $1 per round you aren't properly prepared.
^^^^^^That statment reminds me of "The Emperor's New Clothes”.

The AK-47 has filled more graves than any rifle ever created and countries who use them didn’t come to America to buy premium, $1+ per round ammo. Were those countries not “properly prepared”?
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by powderandprimers View Post
How do you practice on a regular basis at $1/round? How do you stock enough ammunition at $1/round for survival purposes? I guess if you are wealthy and money is not a barrier then maybe your plan makes sense (for you).
I purchased 1500 rounds of 64 grain Speer Gold Dot when PSA had them on sale for $9.99 a box shipped. Add to that about another 1500 Nosler 64 Grain BSB bullets I got on sale from Noslers store front and to top that off 4000 64 grain Gold dot and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw pulled bullets. I have more 5.56 brass than I can load that I pick up for free from the private gun club I belong to. That allows me to load high quality ammo using bonded bullets that would generally cost $1 per round for about 20 cents a round. I confirm zero regularly with my bonded ammo and train with Federal XM193 or my own 55 grain reloads.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:10 AM
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^^^^^^That statment reminds me of "The Emperor's New ClothesĒ.

The AK-47 has filled more graves than any rifle ever created and countries who use them didnít come to America to buy premium, $1+ per round ammo. Were those countries not ďproperly preparedĒ?
And U.S. troops have been killing those same guys armed with AK-47's like it's nobody's business for years and they have decided that a move away from FMJ is worth the cost.

I for one can't look my wife and kids in the eyes and tell them they aren't worth the extra 65 cents when it comes to lifesaving equipment. I guess I just place more value upon my families lives than some people here. When it comes to family go be poor somewhere else.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:16 AM
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Yup. I can't afford to spend that kind of money on ammo. There are a lot of "preppers" out there who buy lots of **** but don't use or train with it. It's easier to buy all high dollar ammo if you rarely or never use any of it for training. Not necessarily saying that Nightvissionary fits that's category, I don't know him/her.
Sure but how much does the average guy here spend on beer, booze, bar tabs, cigarettes, junk food, porn etc? A $1 per round isn't about affordability it's about priorities.

The same guys that say they can't afford $1 per round are the same guys who say they don't have the time to stay physically fit or receive professionally instructed training.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Sure but how much does the average guy here spend on beer, booze, bar tabs, cigarettes, junk food, porn etc? A $1 per round isn't about affordability it's about priorities.

The same guys that say they can't afford $1 per round are the same guys who say they don't have the time to stay physically fit or receive professionally instructed training.

I always wondered what the average guys here were up to, now I know...LOL
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:46 AM
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When it comes to family go be poor somewhere else.
Go be poor somewhere else? It’s a possibility that I could buy your entire net worth many times over, throw it in the dumpster and continue to live quite well. You say you buy expensive ammo because your family is worth it. So....can I assume that by that same principal, you only feed them Filet Migon and never hamburger?
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:00 PM
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Go be poor somewhere else? Itís a possibility that I could buy your entire net worth many times over, throw it in the dumpster and continue to live quite well. You say you buy expensive ammo because your family is worth it. So....can I assume that by that same principal, you only feed them Filet Migon and never hamburger?

If true then what is your reason for being unprepared. It sounds like maybe you are single with no children. If not then did you purchase the cheapest car seat you could find for your kids? Rayovac batteries for your smoke detectors? Cheap Chinese made brake pads? Goodwill underwear? Dollar store First Aid kit?
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:36 PM
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Nightvisionary,
I ask you if AK 47 countries were ďunpreparedĒ and you totally sidestepped the question. Thatís very typical of someone who canít justify their position with fact. I will give you credit loving and protecting your family. Iím amused by your theory that $1 per round makes you more formidable. I defind your right to believe it and buy it, but I guarantee that an AK 47 shooting a 19cent, steel case round will leave you just as dead as a $1 round.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulKersey View Post
Nightvisionary,
I ask you if AK 47 countries were “unprepared” and you totally sidestepped the question. That’s very typical of someone who can’t justify their position with fact. I will give you credit loving and protecting your family. I’m amused by your theory that $1 per round makes you more formidable. I defind your right to believe it and buy it, but I guarantee that an AK 47 shooting a 19cent, steel case round will leave you just as dead as a $1 round.
Based on my training and experience including a knowledge and understanding of terminal ballistics I recognize that your statement is not accurate. It is one of those opinions we regularly run into where the person doesn't even know what they don't know and that's ok because it provides the opportunity for a teachable moment. If you would like to expand your knowledge on the subject of Terminal Ballistsics let me know and I will point you towards some excellent research authored by respected subject matter experts.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Really if you aren't paying $1 per round you aren't properly prepared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
I confirm zero regularly with my bonded ammo and train with Federal XM193 or my own 55 grain reloads.
I thought we might be having some miscommunication issues. This confirms it. Myself and several others here had the impression that you were saying that people needed to be spending $1/rd. for any ammo that they bought, including training ammo. Thanks for clearing that up. Makes much more sense now.

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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Sure but how much does the average guy here spend on beer, booze, bar tabs, cigarettes, junk food, porn etc? A $1 per round isn't about affordability it's about priorities.

The same guys that say they can't afford $1 per round are the same guys who say they don't have the time to stay physically fit or receive professionally instructed training.
I partially agree. I've had arguments again and again on this forum and others about the importance of training. Most "prepper" types place far too little emphasis on it. As far as ammo selection, I base my choices on the advice of the men that I have trained under who have extensive, real world combat experience. Most of them recommend M193 for their high volume storage, "go to war" ammo. This is not because they can't afford anything better. It's because they've used that ammo in real gun fights with real people and they have seen that it works. I don't have that experience so it makes sense to rely on the advice of those who do.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Based on my training and experience including a knowledge and understanding of terminal ballistics I recognize that your statement is not accurate. It is one of those opinions we regularly run into where the person doesn't even know what they don't know and that's ok because it provides the opportunity for a teachable moment. If you would like to expand your knowledge on the subject of Terminal Ballistsics let me know and I will point you towards some excellent research authored by respected subject matter experts.
Devil Dog , PK is and has been a valued member on here for a long time he and I along with a few others have developed a pretty good friendship and some of us even talk in person and exchange cell numbers and talk frequently about world issues drawing from our personal experiences in life which vary greatly some military and some not but we have lived long enough to know something. IMHO it would be foolish young padowan to discount some ones opinion even if you may disagree with them on some minor points. And there is nothing wrong with pride in ones self or accomplishments , but all things in moderation. I do salute you on being prepared and awake to the storm clouds gathering , you may be seeing them for the first time but some of us have seen it coming for a long , long time. Keep your knife sharp and powder dry little brother. JMHO and S/FI!

And I can tell you for a fact PK KNOWS what he is talking about on ballistics and Long Range Marksmanship with top Quality BA RIFLES and Glass
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
steel cased ammo is pretty decent in russian calibers, but has anyone else found the steel cased 5.56/.223 ammo to be rather anemic? like 2900fps from a 16" barrel for 55 grain ammo, while brass cased stuff out of the same gun, same type of bullet (55 grain FMJBT) exists the barrel at about 3,100?
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Keep in mind that not all steel cased ammo is created equal.
This is probably the most interesting thread posted here in a long, long time... so first of, OP, thanks for posting.

Secondly, I think justin is on the right track here, most russian manufactured ammo (Tula, Vempyl, and Barnaul are the 3 most common) is generally using lower powder weights to save money and to increase the factor of safety.

Additionally, most russian rifles (AK pattern) are generally over gassed to ensure proper extraction, and not all ARs are made for the same contingencies. As a result, my guess is that the russian ammo manufacturers probably only test their product in 5.56 saigas.

Also of note is that not all steel case coatings are the same... i would be willing to bet both silver bear (nickel electro-plated steel cases) and golden bear (copper electro-plated steel cases) will function much better than most polymer coated cases in ARs at least in terms of the coefficient of friction between the chamber and the case.

Also note that many polymer coatings are not "coming off" or "gumming up" chambers as many folks are asserting here, that polymer is tested and can hold up against very very high temps (500+ degrees). i think the gumming up effect is coming from those brands that use bullet and primer sealant which can flake off during chambering and firing. Golden Tiger and Red Army Standard (vempyl) use those sealants, so lets not attribute gumming up to the case coating, but rather properly to the weather sealant.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:53 AM
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Devil Dog , PK is and has been a valued member on here for a long time he and I along with a few others have developed a pretty good friendship and some of us even talk in person and exchange cell numbers and talk frequently about world issues drawing from our personal experiences in life which vary greatly some military and some not but we have lived long enough to know something. IMHO it would be foolish young padowan to discount some ones opinion even if you may disagree with them on some minor points. And there is nothing wrong with pride in ones self or accomplishments , but all things in moderation. I do salute you on being prepared and awake to the storm clouds gathering , you may be seeing them for the first time but some of us have seen it coming for a long , long time. Keep your knife sharp and powder dry little brother. JMHO and S/FI!

And I can tell you for a fact PK KNOWS what he is talking about on ballistics and Long Range Marksmanship with top Quality BA RIFLES and Glass
I know that learning new things can often be intimidating especially when one is comfortable with their own preconcieved notions. When you are ready to learn you just let me know as my offer is open to you as well. Not everyone makes it past first phase but I have confidence in you. Now let's get out there and blouse them boots.

PS There is a BIG difference between knowledge of exterior ballistics and terminal ballistics.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by EchoMirage View Post
Everything I've heard and read, it's not the lacquer; especially since not every steel case is lacquer coated. Most are polymer, or zinc. It's the fact that steel doesn't expand like brass, thereby letting carbon/powder fouling get behind the case itself, and into the BCG of the gun. If you've ever shot enough of it, at once, you'll see that there isn't anything gummy in the gun, it's all powder residue.

Take a look at the bolts in the link I posted. The russian ammo guns aren't 'gummed up', but just extremely dirty from powder escaping around the case. Which is also probably why russian ammo seems slightly underpowered....in addition to probably using less powder, some gas isn't going down the barrel, it's being pushed backwards into the guts of the gun, rather than pushing the bullet down the barrel.

I used to use silver bear in my first AR. It ran that fine, but didn't like wolf/tula in aluminum mags.
i think under 50,000+ psi, the thin steel cases still deform to the chamber, though the pressure cure might drop significantly as the bullet moves down the barrel. so, im sure the lower quality russian powders to foul much more, i suspect that additional fouling is not from [lack of] case deformation, but just from normal residual hot gas.

i also think that some folks are confusing the bullet and primer sealant fouling with the polymer cases. the sealant on golden tiger and red army standard flakes off really easily and is a pain to clean up. you can see the sealant in the following picture, its the purple stuff around the primer and where the bullet meets the neck...



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Old 05-15-2019, 04:51 PM
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PS There is a BIG difference between knowledge of exterior ballistics and terminal ballistics.
There's also a big difference between the advice of a stranger on the internet who's known credentials consist of an internet connection and the ability to type English and the advice of a whole bunch of special operations combat veterans. You'll understand, I hope, (to put it bluntly) if no one gives a rats ass about your offer to educate folks here.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:36 PM
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I know that learning new things can often be intimidating especially when one is comfortable with their own preconcieved notions. When you are ready to learn you just let me know as my offer is open to you as well. Not everyone makes it past first phase but I have confidence in you. Now let's get out there and blouse them boots.

PS There is a BIG difference between knowledge of exterior ballistics and terminal ballistics.
OK warrior suit yourself SEMPER FIDELIS! And may you and yours have fair winds and following seas
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:00 PM
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So...like several others, my late Ď90ís Bushmaster will run steel with no issues.

Interesting that this seems to be a thing? Why are the Bushmasters good with steel? Looser tolerances? Older tolerances?

Some of my newer guns will run some brands of steel, but not others. Between hard primers, cases getting stuck, and inaccuracy, itís just not even worth sorting it all out.

BTW...when a gun locks up on the very first round of non-lacquer coated ammo, itís not the imaginary lacquer monster causing the trouble.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:35 AM
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So...like several others, my late Ď90ís Bushmaster will run steel with no issues.

Interesting that this seems to be a thing? Why are the Bushmasters good with steel? Looser tolerances? Older tolerances?

Some of my newer guns will run some brands of steel, but not others. Between hard primers, cases getting stuck, and inaccuracy, itís just not even worth sorting it all out.

BTW...when a gun locks up on the very first round of non-lacquer coated ammo, itís not the imaginary lacquer monster causing the trouble.
my guess would be larger flash holes in the barrels and slight over gassing compared to other brands.
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
I know that learning new things can often be intimidating especially when one is comfortable with their own preconcieved notions. When you are ready to learn you just let me know as my offer is open to you as well. Not everyone makes it past first phase but I have confidence in you. Now let's get out there and blouse them boots.

PS There is a BIG difference between knowledge of exterior ballistics and terminal ballistics.

Do you include yourself in that description? if not you should...external ballistics has to do with the flight of the projectile and terminal ballistics has to do with what it does when it gets there. Seems pretty straight forward and easily understood.


I'm not inclined to spend a buck for a rifle cartridge, magical or not. Ammo manufacturing is a fairly competitive business. To make money they have to offer similar or better cartridges at a competitive prices. That alone tends to drive down the cost while maintaining a competitive level of performance. Honesty, spending a buck on a cartridge isn't going gain you enough of an edge to really matter.
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