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Old 05-14-2019, 11:40 AM
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So you object to text... and videos...

Then you build a little strawman.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:25 PM
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So you object to text... and videos...

Then you build a little strawman.
Lol I just hope to find more than YouTube videos, what about supporting documents and audio files?

If it was really a conspiracy, the evidence should be there for discovery. Especially something of this magnitude.

I want to believe I was fighting a just war, and honorable one in Iraq.

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Old 05-14-2019, 12:35 PM
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You posted this giant wall of text and two YouTube clips but none of this has anything to do with what you quoted.

Why did you even quote him if you weren't going to actually address his points lol.

And you do realize, YouTube isn't proof of anything and anyone can upload videos right? It can help in certain areas but it holds no real weight.

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You are correct, YouTube is not proof of anything. YouTube videos CAN and proof of something. If Billy gets hit with a stick and says Timmy did it, but we see a video and we see Harry hitting Billy with a stick, we proved two things. Timmy didn’t do it and Harry did.
Cops use video evidence to prove things every single day and it doesn’t matter if it came from a vcr in a convenience store, an iPhone or YouTube. They use video as proof in a court of law every day so you can’t say a video doesn’t “hold real weight”.

The thing about videos is it’s hard to control the context of what you’re showing people. Glowing molten metal dripping off the end of the bucket of an excavator is proof that, in that area, temperatures were, at that time, hot enough to melt steel. Period.
Why it melted, how the temps got that hot, who made the fire, none of that can be proven by the video, but it DOES prove SOMETHING.

Then we have the fact that the 9/11 attacks happened 3 years before YouTube was invented which means no one thought they wouldn’t be able to control the narrative of what happened. In 2001 no one thought a guy in his living room would be able to produce a video, upload it and have it be seen by tens of millions of people all at once.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:02 PM
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An excellent example of that is the video that was released of the impact on the pentagon.
That video is proof that an airliner did not hit the pentagon. It doesn’t give enough images to show what DID hit the pentagon, but it does give us enough to prove it was not an airliner.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:16 PM
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Lol I just hope to find more than YouTube videos, what about supporting documents and audio files?

If it was really a conspiracy, the evidence should be there for discovery. Especially something of this magnitude.

I want to believe I was fighting a just war, and honorable one in Iraq.

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Your last sentence is a heavy one, and one that bothered me for quite a while. I understand cognitive dissonance because I dealt with that when I first started to learn more about what happened on 9/11.
I was in 100% support of our country killing everyone because of what happened, when the whole “shock and awe” campaign started I watched it on TV and felt good about it. Their propaganda worked well on me.
About three years later, some time in 2004, I was working late with a guy and he was telling me all these horrible things about what he thought happened on 9/11, and how it wasn’t what we were told. When I first started reading about it I did so with the bias towards proving him wrong, it the more I looked the more I realized the official story was not just wrong but practically a complete fabrication. I’ve read everything I can pertaining to that day, watched every video, and learned a lot about things I never cared about before. There is no doubt in my mind that 9/11 was not just a false flag but a state sponsored domestic terror attack, and the more I read and the more information settles in my mind the more certain I am in that fact.

In the beginning stages of learning about any topic you have some areas that you grasp more readily than others. If we liken it to the alphabet it’s like you learn a,b, d, g and n.
As you learn more you add more letters to what you know of the alphabet, when you know d and g and then learn e, f kind of just becomes known. That’s how I put together my understanding of what happened.
I’m still missing a letter or two, but what I’ve learned in it’s totality makes me certain of my belief.

I didn’t want to believe what I believe now, but after exhaustive, obsessive research on the topic there’s only one logical conclusion, Ockham’s razor.
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Old 05-14-2019, 06:00 PM
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Lol I just hope to find more than YouTube videos, what about supporting documents and audio files?

If it was really a conspiracy, the evidence should be there for discovery. Especially something of this magnitude.

I want to believe I was fighting a just war, and honorable one in Iraq.

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I served multiple tours in Iraq. I have no issues resolving it was a justified war and positive outcome. Simple really.

* In the 1980s and 1990s Saddam used bio/chem weapons in wars and on innocent civilians. His Baath party murdered, raped, and/or brutalized countless people. He was a horrible powerful dictator.

* Also in the 1970s-1990s, the world ignored the growing Islamic terrorist threats and bold actions of plane hijackings, improvised bombs, vehicle bombs, using a boat VBIED to hit the USS Cole, and direct attack on the WTC with a truck bomb. Looking back it's obvious they would use planes as missiles, like the Japanese did in Kamakazi attacks. Ignoring this was foolish.

* Hussein invaded Kuwait and threatened the global oil supply. We gave him ample room to withdraw. He preferred war. We swiftly kicked his *** and he opted to surrender. Under the terms of the CEASEFIRE (a pause in the war) he would destroy or surrender all stocks of WMDs and not seek to produce more. He lied to his people and told them he won and drove America out (hence the palace he built called the "Victory over America Palace"). He also did not comply with the CEASEFIRE agreement for some 11 years.

* In a pre-911 world that non-compliance was an easily ignored nuisance. In a post-911 world we could no longer show weakness or ignore a dictator supporting or condoning terrorism and seeking WMDs. It was clear Saddam was in violation.

* During the 18 months advanced warning we provided before invading, we observed convoys of trucks taking stuff from Iraq to Syria. Intelligence believed that was the WMDs. No coincidence that chemical weapons would be used in Syria a decade later, and by ISIS who used mustard gas in Northern Iraq. Also buried in the news, our GIs found chemical weapon stocks in Iraq. If you do some looking you can find all this information confirmed. It's obvious Saddam had these in violation.

In the end, we ignored global terrorism threats. We paid a price. We ignored Saddams use of bio/chem in the 1980s and his continued pursuit of WMDs in the 1990s. That could not continue. Those could be sold or given to terrorists... We removed a dictator and restored some stability to the world in his absence. We have different problems but not an all-powerful dictator in Iraq seeking WMDs.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:53 PM
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Some interesting reading here, just a couple months after 9/11, CENTCOM presented POTUS GWB a plan to justify an attack on Iraq based on both WMD's in Iraq and connection to 9/11 as well as other potential triggers. They knew 9/11 was the Saudis, but sold an attack on 9/11 as being connected to Saddam Hussein. The timing just too coincidental IMHO.

See the slide on page 4, the "Triggers".

https://ahec.armywarcollege.edu/CENT...20DEC%2001.pdf

Oh and as far as WMD's being shipped to Syria? What ever became of them? If there were really any at the time being moved. That was a convenient argument used at the time but it never held up to scrutiny. Poor General Powell, being used as a patsy on the WMD's. Wrecked his political future.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:39 PM
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Some interesting reading here, just a couple months after 9/11, CENTCOM presented POTUS GWB a plan to justify an attack on Iraq based on both WMD's in Iraq and connection to 9/11 as well as other potential triggers. They knew 9/11 was the Saudis, but sold an attack on 9/11 as being connected to Saddam Hussein. The timing just too coincidental IMHO.

See the slide on page 4, the "Triggers".

https://ahec.armywarcollege.edu/CENT...20DEC%2001.pdf

Oh and as far as WMD's being shipped to Syria? What ever became of them? If there were really any at the time being moved. That was a convenient argument used at the time but it never held up to scrutiny. Poor General Powell, being used as a patsy on the WMD's. Wrecked his political future.
It wasn't the first time he did what the politicians and upper-brass wanted, and kept things under wraps. My Lai being an earlier example.

Now let's dial up to today. Are we supposed to be willing to throw American soldiers in harm's way, fight Iran, and come to the defense of Saudi Arabia since they were supposedly hit by Iranian saboteurs (or was that Yemen drones?). I mean, Saudi Arabia isn't exactly a shining example of Western democracy.

As for the stupid articles circulating in the news about sending 120,000 US troops to Iran, that would be a crapshoot. Against us. Iran has over 81 million people. Bolton, the other neocons and corporate media are trying to drum up yet another endless war. I think we'll need better provocation, sold to Joe Stupidpacks, to fight yet another war for OPEC/Big Oil/the Saudis.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:23 PM
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It wasn't the first time he did what the politicians and upper-brass wanted, and kept things under wraps. My Lai being an earlier example.

Now let's dial up to today. Are we supposed to be willing to throw American soldiers in harm's way, fight Iran, and come to the defense of Saudi Arabia since they were supposedly hit by Iranian saboteurs (or was that Yemen drones?). I mean, Saudi Arabia isn't exactly a shining example of Western democracy.

As for the stupid articles circulating in the news about sending 120,000 US troops to Iran, that would be a crapshoot. Against us. Iran has over 81 million people. Bolton, the other neocons and corporate media are trying to drum up yet another endless war. I think we'll need better provocation, sold to Joe Stupidpacks, to fight yet another war for OPEC/Big Oil/the Saudis.
It has to stop and it is not going to stop unless ordinary citizens become outraged and go to the streets (and polls), but that won't happen because the average US citizen believes exactly what their (selected) politicians tell them. First and foremost they want status quo. Don't upset the apple cart. Buy shiny stuff, pretend all is well.

At least with Viet Nam, folks were weary from their sons and friends being drafted and coming back in a box. News was coming back from the battleground faster than in WW2. Fast forward, to now. Now that war has become a "profession", there is sort of an insulation factor, folks look at the military differently, as a permanent police force protecting them from hourly threats. A difference today, kids are not always coming back in a box but pretty well damaged mentally if not physically.

There is a 24/7/365 constant barrage of news from all the battles and nobody really can tell who is fighting who.

Add to all this, the future blow back, of RETALIATORY terrorism and the cycle of war is not going to end.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:33 PM
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Let me try to rephrase.

You're duly elected President Bush enjoying year 1 of your presidency. All is going well.

On 9/11/01, America is attacked. You believe it's "deep state." This would be a treasonous and murderous act unlike any ever before. It's killed 3000 Americans in spectacular fashion. It will launch us into a multi-front war that may kill countless more Americans and innocents globally by invading innocent nations to hunt for innocent people.

Option 1: You can either hitch your wagon to the corrupted deep state and co-conspire after the fact with the murderous treasonous deep state. And knowing that one day this will all unravel and you'd be the worst POTUS in history and branded a traitor and murderer...

OR

Option 2: You can use your legal authority, fire the heads of the DOJ, FBI, all Top Military Brass from the MIC, fire all the co-conspirators in the FAA and other agencies. Hand pick replacements. Investigate the deep state and prosecute them. Save thousands of Americans and America from invading innocent nations and committing war crimes. Be the biggest American hero for dissolving and prosecuting actual treason and crimes.

---

Only a moron would think that the POTUS would choose option 1 when presented with these facts.

While I disdain the "Deep State" conspiracy. It is because the proponents go off on deep tangents about the "usual suspects" . I won't regurgitate them here, they are numerous.

But I do see a scenario where a newly elected president has his first closed door security briefing on the morning of his inaugural. During that meeting, some nameless guys from NSA/CIA/FBI and DOD show up with one RED file folder. In it is a complete and accurate dossier of the newly elected presidents entire life including 8 x 10 glossies and transcripts from various sources. The discussion then turns to a power point presentation on the expected foreign policy.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:05 PM
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While I disdain the "Deep State" conspiracy. It is because the proponents go off on deep tangents about the "usual suspects" . I won't regurgitate them here, they are numerous.

But I do see a scenario where a newly elected president has his first closed door security briefing on the morning of his inaugural. During that meeting, some nameless guys from NSA/CIA/FBI and DOD show up with one RED file folder. In it is a complete and accurate dossier of the newly elected presidents entire life including 8 x 10 glossies and transcripts from various sources. The discussion then turns to a power point presentation on the expected foreign policy.
If they extort the POTUS with his skeletons (porn stars, financials, debt, insanity, etc.) we should be so lucky. The alternative is that they don't even bother telling him the real secrets. He's just a figurehead, a showman for foregone policy crafted and paid for by globalists and run along completely unelected means. The question is whether he knows he's merely a showman or not.

I bet he does. He appeared on the Jefferson's show once, playing himself.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:25 PM
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It has to stop and it is not going to stop unless ordinary citizens become outraged and go to the streets (and polls), but that won't happen because the average US citizen believes exactly what their (selected) politicians tell them. First and foremost they want status quo. Don't upset the apple cart. Buy shiny stuff, pretend all is well.

At least with Viet Nam, folks were weary from their sons and friends being drafted and coming back in a box. News was coming back from the battleground faster than in WW2. Fast forward, to now. Now that war has become a "profession", there is sort of an insulation factor, folks look at the military differently, as a permanent police force protecting them from hourly threats. A difference today, kids are not always coming back in a box but pretty well damaged mentally if not physically.

There is a 24/7/365 constant barrage of news from all the battles and nobody really can tell who is fighting who.

Add to all this, the future blow back, of RETALIATORY terrorism and the cycle of war is not going to end.
EXACTLY what we read in 1984.
The war is the same, sometimes the names of our enemies are changed, but not much
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:32 PM
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While I disdain the "Deep State" conspiracy. It is because the proponents go off on deep tangents about the "usual suspects" . I won't regurgitate them here, they are numerous.

But I do see a scenario where a newly elected president has his first closed door security briefing on the morning of his inaugural. During that meeting, some nameless guys from NSA/CIA/FBI and DOD show up with one RED file folder. In it is a complete and accurate dossier of the newly elected presidents entire life including 8 x 10 glossies and transcripts from various sources. The discussion then turns to a power point presentation on the expected foreign policy.
Obama did it

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/06/btsc.welch.obama.press/

So did trump

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/unprecedented-move-trump-ditches-press-visit-dc-president/story%3fid=43467296
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:46 AM
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Some interesting reading here, just a couple months after 9/11, CENTCOM presented POTUS GWB a plan to justify an attack on Iraq based on both WMD's in Iraq and connection to 9/11 as well as other potential triggers. They knew 9/11 was the Saudis, but sold an attack on 9/11 as being connected to Saddam Hussein. The timing just too coincidental IMHO.

See the slide on page 4, the "Triggers".

https://ahec.armywarcollege.edu/CENT...20DEC%2001.pdf



Oh and as far as WMD's being shipped to Syria? What ever became of them? If there were really any at the time being moved. That was a convenient argument used at the time but it never held up to scrutiny. Poor General Powell, being used as a patsy on the WMD's. Wrecked his political future.

They laid out a plan to take down 7 countries.
General Wesley Clark




"So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, "Are we still going to war with Iraq?" And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, "I just got this down from upstairs" -- meaning the Secretary of Defense's office -- "today." And he said, "This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran." I said, "Is it classified?" He said, "Yes, sir." I said, "Well, don't show it to me." And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, "You remember that?" He said, "Sir, I didn't show you that memo! I didn't show it to you!"


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Old 05-15-2019, 05:45 AM
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Side note...
Interesting fact, the news scrolls that roll across the bottom of the screen on the cable tv news channels were first used on 9/11/01. They started then and still roll today dumping feces into the minds of the viewers. Only MSNBC ever removed their scroll after 9/11 but when the other news channels didn’t remove theirs msnbc started theirs back up.

Interesting study on the effect of the news scroll:

http://ampoleagle.com/psychologist-investigates-whether-tickers-br-in-tv-news-replace-critical-p8726-96.htm

Turns out the info on the scroll is received more readily than the news stories showing on the screen above it.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:32 AM
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Side note...

Interesting fact, the news scrolls that roll across the bottom of the screen on the cable tv news channels were first used on 9/11/01. They started then and still roll today dumping feces into the minds of the viewers. Only MSNBC ever removed their scroll after 9/11 but when the other news channels didn’t remove theirs msnbc started theirs back up.



Interesting study on the effect of the news scroll:



http://ampoleagle.com/psychologist-i...l-p8726-96.htm



Turns out the info on the scroll is received more readily than the news stories showing on the screen above it.


Great, now we have to add “Big Scroll” to the conspiracy pile.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:15 AM
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Great, now we have to add “Big Scroll” to the conspiracy pile.
That’s one way to look at it.
Another way to look at it would be to understand that it’s just yet another tool for administering propaganda, unless you don’t believe our media and gov use propaganda to “manufacture consent” as Edward Bernays wrote about in his book.

Here’s a good opportunity to highlight the manipulation used by people such as yourself to marginalize the view of someone you don’t agree with.
I mention the origin of the news scroll and how it’s effective and your automatic response is that it should be added to a pile of conspiracy things.
Facebook has been caught experimenting on it’s users. They were releasing news stories to different groups in different ways to see how to get the reaction they want.
They put different emotional spins on the stories and it was an experiment to gain insight on how to release stories to get people to React to the story in a previously determined way.
I guess that’s a part of the stuff on the conspiracy pile too.
Or the ambassador’s daughter who cried and told us about Iraqi soldiers throwing babies out of incubators onto the cold floor, that wasn’t propaganda, just throw it on the pile?
Or iraq’s Weapons of mass destruction, with the retard in chief joking on stage in front of cameras “where are those weapons, they’ve got to be around here somewhere...”.

Recognizing a tool of control or some bull**** propaganda isn’t just another item for the conspiracy pile. Those responses are what makes some people accuse other of being a gate keeper, when you defend against every single thing brought up that runs counter to the establishment’s bull**** it makes people start to wonder why
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:36 PM
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The problem with "deep state" as used by people like Trump and Alex Jones is found in many of the techniques here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_techniques

Basically, Trump and Jones are highly insulting to many educated and otherwise thoughtful people, so when they start going off about conspiracies or topics like "deep state" and "fake news" they "taint" the whole concept, and many otherwise sensible people reject the entire concept out of hand because the messenger is an established whack-job on other topics.

A mass psychological side consequence of Trump is restoring faith in the corporate media to alot of people, as if their reporting on his shortcomings gives them broader credibility in general. Sorry, I don't care for Trump OR the corporate media.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:10 PM
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That’s one way to look at it.
Another way to look at it would be to understand that it’s just yet another tool for administering propaganda, unless you don’t believe our media and gov use propaganda to “manufacture consent” as Edward Bernays wrote about in his book.

Here’s a good opportunity to highlight the manipulation used by people such as yourself to marginalize the view of someone you don’t agree with.

snip
People who continually regurgitate proven lies and refuse to accept proven undisputed facts and evidence should be marginalized. (And, no, claiming nonsense isn't a legitimate dispute.)

As they say, you're entitled to make up your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to make up your own facts.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:15 PM
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The problem with "deep state" as used by people like Trump and Alex Jones is found in many of the techniques here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_techniques

Basically, Trump and Jones are highly insulting to many educated and otherwise thoughtful people, so when they start going off about conspiracies or topics like "deep state" and "fake news" they "taint" the whole concept, and many otherwise sensible people reject the entire concept out of hand because the messenger is an established whack-job on other topics.

A mass psychological side consequence of Trump is restoring faith in the corporate media to alot of people, as if their reporting on his shortcomings gives them broader credibility in general. Sorry, I don't care for Trump OR the corporate media.
Disagree.

Trump HAS exposed the fake news media. He HAS exposed the corrupt deep state agents.

"Restored the faith in corporate media...." Surely you must be joking. Mainstream news media is shutting down and closing doors and hemorrhaging viewership. Their cons have been totally exposed. "News anchors" fired. Their big predictions (ie Hillary winning 2016, Trump's collusion and pending impeachment and indictment and all his family being indicted, etc., and Michael Avenetti's character and POTUS run, deep state actors like Comey and Brennan and Clapper and McCabe and others have been spewing lies on TV and now being totally discredited, and many many more) have all been so hopelessly wrong and not even close to correct... anyone with 10 IQ points sees the shill that is the MSM. And it's almost entirely to the credit of Trump.
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