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Old 05-27-2020, 01:09 PM
Mr. Sockpuppet Mr. Sockpuppet is offline
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And they suffer horribly, nightmarishly.
Not all, but too many do in fact expire in much pain.
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Old 05-27-2020, 01:23 PM
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Yeah, and the vast majority of people with end-stage alzheimers die. And full-blown AIDS. And terminal cancer. What's your point?
End stage Alzheimers and terminal CA, currently results in a 100% rate of death.

Full blown AIDS, not so much. I've personally seen people at that death's door recover overnight.

Though everyone upon the face of this Earth expires, regardless of the diagnosis. Such is the consequence of sin, if you believe that type of thing.

My point to your question, is the statement itself, as I merely stated a fact. Too many believe that COVID-19, the virus that can lead to SARS-CoV-2, is nothing more but the common cold or the seasonal flu. Clearly, it is not.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
True herd immunity is doing nothing to prevent infection. Allowing those not genetically naturally immune to die. Thus leaving a more genetically pure human-race. It is a form of bigotry not based on race, national origin or religious practice.
Shockingly wrong. The reality is people die. It has nothing to do with bigotry.

"Allowing" people to die is the natural order of things for we are not gods. Yes, out of compassion we attempt to save people. The Bible talks about abandoning the 99 to look for the 1. However, that is a bad survival strategy. To your way of thinking, why is that not bigotry; to abandon the 99 to save the 1? [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
I think inaction is a cop out. And I had the impression Christianity was against it.

If as part of a society we happily reap the benefits. We should also take a bit of responsibility for the problems.

A quote from a historical villian. The Scrooge.

"you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas, and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned--they cost enough; and those who are
badly off must go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides--excuse me--I don't know that."
"But you might know it," observed the gentleman.
"It's not my business," Scrooge returned. "It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's.
Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!"
Seeing clearly that it would be useless to pursue their point, the gentlemen withdrew. Scrooge resumed his labours with an improved opinion of himself, and in a more facetious temper than was usual with him."
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Old 05-27-2020, 07:18 PM
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Texas department of State Health Services:
There have been 1,536 Texas fatalities attributed to Covid-19 and currently 1,645 Texas hospital patients with Covid-19. Out of 491 death investigations received by the DSHS (which is 32% of reported deaths, so a reasonable sample size) over 70% have been 65 and over.

US Census Bureau:
There were around 29,000,000 people in Texas as of 2019.

That means that 0.01 percent of Texans have either died or currently have a severe case of Covid-19. That is one hundredth of one percent of the population. Over 70% of the fatalities investigated so far have been in the age range of 65+ with over 40% being 80+ years.
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Old 05-27-2020, 08:25 PM
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Default Herd Immunity, No Lockdown

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Originally Posted by Mr. Sockpuppet View Post
End stage Alzheimers and terminal CA, currently results in a 100% rate of death.

Full blown AIDS, not so much. I've personally seen people at that death's door recover overnight.

Though everyone upon the face of this Earth expires, regardless of the diagnosis. Such is the consequence of sin, if you believe that type of thing.

My point to your question, is the statement itself, as I merely stated a fact. Too many believe that COVID-19, the virus that can lead to SARS-CoV-2, is nothing more but the common cold or the seasonal flu. Clearly, it is not.

Except as time goes on, it clearly is emerging as just another virus.

The current “mortality %” being discussed everywhere is case fatality rate. Which is deaths divided by known or tested cases. That “rate” (it’s a percentage) varies by demographic/age group, going anywhere from less than 1 to 8% or more. For anyone under the age of 50, it’s less than 1%. Important distinction to make here is that this rate will be artificially higher as it’s only the “most” sick, or those who are having symptoms severe enough to warrant testing in a hospital setting, being counted.

Infection fatality rate, which is the iceberg of untested folks who were either totally asymptomatic or had very mild symptoms, or got pretty sick and just toughed it out, aren’t counted in the denominator for case mortality. Infection mortality reduces mortality “rate” exponentially as it pumps up the cases a hundred fold in the denominator.

People need to stop letting the media drive the narrative that “GROWING CASE COUNTS!” and raw death counts mean something. Especially in a time when hospitals and health systems are being rewarded financially by CMS for essentially upcoding to COVID to offset the money they’ve hemorrhaged from electives being shut down for months. There’s also the issue of coding untested “probables” as COVID deaths, and just lumping “died of” and “died with” Coronavirus together for the same exact reason - $$$.

The whole thing is a freaking scam, in an unintentional and intentional way. Wake up.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:32 PM
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Except as time goes on, it clearly is emerging as just another virus.
Viruses are more than pathogens, but are symbiotic with human life. Ever hear or see of the collection known as the Virome?

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Originally Posted by querulous View Post
The current “mortality %” being discussed everywhere is case fatality rate. Which is deaths divided by known or tested cases. That “rate” (it’s a percentage) varies by demographic/age group, going anywhere from less than 1 to 8% or more. For anyone under the age of 50, it’s less than 1%. Important distinction to make here is that this rate will be artificially higher as it’s only the “most” sick, or those who are having symptoms severe enough to warrant testing in a hospital setting, being counted.
Contrarily, I have been referring to the actual mortality of those hospitalized with acute cases.

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Originally Posted by querulous View Post
Infection fatality rate, which is the iceberg of untested folks who were either totally asymptomatic or had very mild symptoms, or got pretty sick and just toughed it out, aren’t counted in the denominator for case mortality. Infection mortality reduces mortality “rate” exponentially as it pumps up the cases a hundred fold in the denominator.
I can't speak to that one way or another.

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Originally Posted by querulous View Post
People need to stop letting the media drive the narrative that “GROWING CASE COUNTS!” and raw death counts mean something. Especially in a time when hospitals and health systems are being rewarded financially by CMS for essentially upcoding to COVID to offset the money they’ve hemorrhaged from electives being shut down for months. There’s also the issue of coding untested “probables” as COVID deaths, and just lumping “died of” and “died with” Coronavirus together for the same exact reason - $$$.
Ever hear of a differential diagnosis?

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The whole thing is a freaking scam, in an unintentional and intentional way. Wake up.
Wake up yourself. From a clinical perspective, a contagious pathogen is causing people to become sick. The secondary tragedy is that it has also closed down "unnecessary" surgeries and Med-Surg floors.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sockpuppet View Post
Viruses are more than pathogens, but are symbiotic with human life. Ever hear or see of the collection known as the Virome?



Contrarily, I have been referring to the actual mortality of those hospitalized with acute cases.



I can't speak to that one way or another.



Ever hear of a differential diagnosis?



Wake up yourself. From a clinical perspective, a contagious pathogen is causing people to become sick. The secondary tragedy is that it has also closed down "unnecessary" surgeries and Med-Surg floors.

You didn’t refute one point.


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Old 05-28-2020, 08:04 AM
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You didn’t refute one point.
The Left don't debate.

The Left are so indoctrinated with their own BS, they literally do not know how to debate. They just ignore whatever point was made and repeat what they've been told to say.

The combination of Leftist arrogance and ignorance remains hilarious to behold. I am not laughing WITH them. I am laughing AT them.
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sockpuppet View Post
End stage Alzheimers and terminal CA, currently results in a 100% rate of death.

Full blown AIDS, not so much. I've personally seen people at that death's door recover overnight.

Though everyone upon the face of this Earth expires, regardless of the diagnosis. Such is the consequence of sin, if you believe that type of thing.

My point to your question, is the statement itself, as I merely stated a fact. Too many believe that COVID-19, the virus that can lead to SARS-CoV-2, is nothing more but the common cold or the seasonal flu. Clearly, it is not.
So what happens to the people who die of the existing strains of coronavirus? When they get so sick that their body fails to continue to function in a manner compatible with life, how do they expire? Is it all cookies and candy and kittens for them? Is it not painful and horrific? How does it differ from dying from this new strain? So they drown differently in their own pneumonic fluids?
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:56 AM
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Last time I saw it mentioned on media, there was already like 198 different mutations of this virus around the world. Some doctor described their differences as if someone woud change one letter in a book. It is still the same book.

Swedes tested for antibodies, in Stockholm area (where virus has hit hardest) they were now at 7% coverage. Same article mentioned that the area in Spain that was the worst, antibodies tested on 13% of people. Herd immunity would need at least 70% to become effective.
The vast majority of people aren't susceltible to the virus in the first place, for lack of receptors. They won't register antibodies in the already-highly-inaccurate antibody test, and the virus doesn't have the right "key" to infect them.

So the 7% and 13% are percentages of the population who are both susceptible and already response-immune.
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:59 AM
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Herd immunity is simply killing off the weaker while the strong survive. People advocating for it are of course in the stronger category which makes the process academic rather than personal.

Those who are around herds of animals know herd immunity really means herd management. When they overpopulate, they stretch resources to the point where eventually disease and starvation reset them. To keep diseases from forming and spreading we hunt significant numbers each year. Purposefully, killing a percentage to keep the rest of them safer. Management for their own good. The goal is to maximize herd health while not wasting them when they die. Disease is a waste while shooting them is not.

People are the same. We're more mobile and adaptive, but eventually, we end up in the same boat and need culling though war, famine, and disease.

Herd immunity is a neat academic exercise because we're not the weak, useless old people being culled. For now.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by InOmaha View Post
Herd immunity is simply killing off the weaker while the strong survive. People advocating for it are of course in the stronger category which makes the process academic rather than personal.

Those who are around herds of animals know herd immunity really means herd management. When they overpopulate, they stretch resources to the point where eventually disease and starvation reset them. To keep diseases from forming and spreading we hunt significant numbers each year. Purposefully, killing a percentage to keep the rest of them safer. Management for their own good. The goal is to maximize herd health while not wasting them when they die. Disease is a waste while shooting them is not.

People are the same. We're more mobile and adaptive, but eventually, we end up in the same boat and need culling though war, famine, and disease.

Herd immunity is a neat academic exercise because we're not the weak, useless old people being culled. For now.
That is not what herd immunity is. You are describing carrying capacity, the population that can be sustained by a certain set of circumstances. Herd immunity is not dependent upon population density, scarcity of resources, or any other Malthusian survival-of-the-fittest scheme.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:05 PM
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You didn’t refute one point.
Actually, I did. You're just too priggish to admit to it, or just too ignorant to recognize that fact.

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The Left don't debate.

The Left are so indoctrinated with their own BS, they literally do not know how to debate. They just ignore whatever point was made and repeat what they've been told to say.

The combination of Leftist arrogance and ignorance remains hilarious to behold. I am not laughing WITH them. I am laughing AT them.
Speaking of prig...you wade in with both ad hominem and non sequitur attacks. Some things never change.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:08 PM
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So what happens to the people who die of the existing strains of coronavirus? When they get so sick that their body fails to continue to function in a manner compatible with life, how do they expire? Is it all cookies and candy and kittens for them? Is it not painful and horrific? How does it differ from dying from this new strain? So they drown differently in their own pneumonic fluids?
You lost me. How are your questions related to my post?
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Old 05-29-2020, 06:17 AM
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You lost me. How are your questions related to my post?
The comment was made that people who die of the novel COVID19 strain suffer a horrific death. My question was how that differs from people who die from the previously-existing strains. If someone dies from SARS Cov 1, MERS, or even the common cold, are they not dying an horrific death as well?

Yes, this is a novel strain, but it is not new in every imaginable way. Viruses of many different taxons have been killing people for all of recorded history and beyond, and they have not invented new ways of doing so in our lifetime.
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Old 05-29-2020, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sockpuppet View Post
Actually, I did. You're just too priggish to admit to it, or just too ignorant to recognize that fact.



Speaking of prig...you wade in with both ad hominem and non sequitur attacks. Some things never change.

No. No you did not.

There is a vast difference between CFR and IFR. The IFR (the true mortality rate) is exponentially lower than the CFR, and pushes the mortality rate for coronavirus well below 1%.

Read again: below 1%.

Please enlighten us all, from a “clinical perspective,” how that is inaccurate.

I do have an MPH, so I wouldn’t call my perspective on this super ignorant.


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Old 05-29-2020, 08:14 AM
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Speaking of prig...you wade in with both ad hominem and non sequitur attacks. Some things never change.
Yes, Some things never change, including Leftists not debating.

Funny how you pretend to be a victim pulling the same crap all thread long, ad hominem and non sequitur.
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:15 AM
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The comment was made that people who die of the novel COVID19 strain suffer a horrific death. My question was how that differs from people who die from the previously-existing strains. If someone dies from SARS Cov 1, MERS, or even the common cold, are they not dying an horrific death as well?

Yes, this is a novel strain, but it is not new in every imaginable way. Viruses of many different taxons have been killing people for all of recorded history and beyond, and they have not invented new ways of doing so in our lifetime.
You'll note that I modified that claim as well.

I worked hospice for many years, and pain management was a big part of my job.
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:23 AM
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No. No you did not.
Your having a reading comprehension problem, doesn't make it my problem.

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Originally Posted by querulous View Post
There is a vast difference between CFR and IFR. The IFR (the true mortality rate) is exponentially lower than the CFR, and pushes the mortality rate for coronavirus well below 1%.

Read again: below 1%.
Again, that isn't what I was claiming. You need to refresh your critical reading skills.

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Originally Posted by querulous View Post
Please enlighten us all, from a “clinical perspective,” how that is inaccurate.
My own hospital has had roughly 350 SARS-CoV-2 acute inpatients. To date, only one (1) has been discharged alive. All hospitals within 200 miles of my location are reporting similar numbers.

How is that from a clinical perspective?

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I do have an MPH, so I wouldn’t call my perspective on this super ignorant.
Good, then as someone with a MPH, you should realize that there is a near complete mortality of those inpatients that are acutely ill with such. If you don't, then you should to back to your school and ask for your money back.
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:29 AM
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Yes, Some things never change, including Leftists not debating.

Funny how you pretend to be a victim pulling the same crap all thread long, ad hominem and non sequitur.
Your definition of debate changes, when the argument presented isn't what you agree.

Your claims of something true, doesn't make it true. Your attempts at insulting remarks, doesn't make it true either.
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