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Old 10-18-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Funny how it seems even more relevant these days, and in all directions, isnt it.
Yeah, I think I remember when most people didn't have to lie to make their point, but maybe it's just my fading memory...
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:48 PM
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My hats off to you. I worked in a big city department with a lot of shootings, and I don't know anybody that even came close to that kind of number of cases investigated personally.

Hopefully you're teaching or lecturing on the subject, with that kind of experience.
WHEN I moved to the city from the SD I was amazed at the violence. So, I started keeping track because it was just so crazy. I kept track of how many shootings and also how many times I had to draw down on someone. In my first full summer, I responded to 74 shootings.. that is June 1 - Sept. 1. Overall that first year I investigated 124 shootings. We were knee deep in a drug war over heroin distribution and it was like the wild west used to be according to the movies. I was in the ghetto for about 20 years and running around 100+ a year they add up.
and multiples.. it seemed like for a while no one got shot alone. You would have a drive by and find 5 people on the ground, and none of the the intended target. And multiple homicides. Nothing like a triple dead to take care of your day. My biggest was a fourple, drug execution. All vics tied up hog tie style and shot in the head. A very direct message being sent.

That first full summer there were 7 whole days I did not have someone at gunpoint. It was adrenaline rush city. (hey, I was still young at heart and thought it was exciting and a real rush to be out there on point)

I worked mostly 8PM to 4AM, the highest violent crime time and as the eventual senior officer on the shift I responded to all shootings in that time block because we had so many inexperienced new guys.

We had so many violent crimes the prosecutors office had a "no harm no foul policy." ie..John shoots Bob. Bob says he doesn't want to sign a complaint or prosecute. Even though it is the state that controls such things, if nobody died... the prosecutor wasn't going to get upset with a case if the vic wasn't on line, so, the shooter got released and no prosecution for the shooting happened. Some time later on John would be found dead or wounded and so life went on.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:54 PM
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WHEN I moved to the city from the SD I was amazed at the violence. So, I started keeping track because it was just so crazy. I kept track of how many shootings and also how many times I had to draw down on someone. In my first full summer, I responded to 74 shootings.. that is June 1 - Sept. 1. Overall that first year I investigated 124 shootings. We were knee deep in a drug war over heroin distribution and it was like the wild west used to be according to the movies. I was in the ghetto for about 20 years and running around 100+ a year they add up.
and multiples.. it seemed like for a while no one got shot alone. You would have a drive by and find 5 people on the ground, and none of the the intended target. And multiple homicides. Nothing like a triple dead to take care of your day. My biggest was a fourple, drug execution. All vics tied up hog tie style and shot in the head. A very direct message being sent.

That first full summer there were 7 whole days I did not have someone at gunpoint. It was adrenaline rush city. (hey, I was still young at heart and thought it was exciting and a real rush to be out there on point)

I worked mostly 8PM to 4AM, the highest violent crime time and as the eventual senior officer on the shift I responded to all shootings in that time block because we had so many inexperienced new guys.

We had so many violent crimes the prosecutors office had a "no harm no foul policy." ie..John shoots Bob. Bob says he doesn't want to sign a complaint or prosecute. Even though it is the state that controls such things, if nobody died... the prosecutor wasn't going to get upset with a case if the vic wasn't on line, so, the shooter got released and no prosecution for the shooting happened. Some time later on John would be found dead or wounded and so life went on.
I think our definitions of "investigating" differ. There is no way one detective could fully investigate a shooting every two days. Best Practices for Homicide Investigators is five cases per detective per year. Agg Assault detectives, it's not much higher. Even in the dark days of NYPD, guys weren't catching more than 30 in a year.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
No.

A handgun projectile doesn't cause more damage if it doesn't exit. "Energy" is a meaningless term in that respect.

Handgun bullets don't radiate death and destruction as they pass through. They poke a hole. That's it.
You are wrong. Any projectile entering the human body causes the body to absorb energy to stop it. The human body is largely liquid so that energy radiates a hydraulic effect. Granted the energy might be less from a hand gun but none the less the more energy a bullet has striking and entering the body the more energy radiated around it as it slows the bullet.

If that physics is wrong please show your proof.
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:37 AM
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I think our definitions of "investigating" differ. There is no way one detective could fully investigate a shooting every two days. Best Practices for Homicide Investigators is five cases per detective per year. Agg Assault detectives, it's not much higher. Even in the dark days of NYPD, guys weren't catching more than 30 in a year.
AGREED, I was first on scene, doing the initial blood and guts work, getting bodies shipped to hospital if breathing, marking them off if they weren't and holding scene getting statements and IDs and evidence until suits and techs arrived to do their thing if required. If I had an arrest on scene after I got the info required I would bag and tag the BG and take him to the holding area and make arrangements to be sure he was held incommunicado until suits arrived to interrogate. The "formal" work was done by the suits and yeah, they had a lot more "i's" to dot and t's to cross. They had to live with the case until finished. I did my end and handed off the paper and back into the jungle. On a "simple" no death shooting on the street, I would be done with everything in just over an hour at most. There just wasn't that much to them.
most of our shootings were street scenes, not a lot of evidence or scene to hold. Most of it hit and run, drug gang shootings of opportunity. You would arrive, assess the damage, the living got shipped and the dead stayed and you held what you could until the suits arrived. THen I might not even be the primary on the case, Still do the same thing just hand off the paperwork to the primary beat car once the scene is stable and then be on my way. Write up my assist report later.

ALTHOUGH.. every now and then we would get a surprise. Call of a shooting, a drug gang leader was gunned down outside of his favorite bar while walking back to his car. There were 2 cop cars talking to each other not 3 blocks from where it took place. They never heard a shot. The guy was very dead. We figured he was hit at least 20 times with .45. We found over 40 .45acp cases on the ground total with piles at 2 different areas.(no prints on cases, wiped clean) From a wit description it seems 2 guys waiting in the dark, the guns sounded like MAC .45s with cans from the description. The wit said he thought they were shooting but he didn't hear shots just a strange putt putt type sound. Never solved that one. VERY professional.

If it was a fit of passion like the sister bro homeycide Dets wouldn't even come in until the next day because everything would be in the initial report including the "confession"

Fastest homeycide I ever had took no more than 2 hours from start to booking out. Street shooting, shooter still ranting at the guy on ground(his brother in law) when I arrived. (I was close enough I heard the shot.) when I drove up. Got the gun and him, sent vic to hospital still alive.. but died while I was still at scene with shooter and getting wit statements. Booked killer in jail, went to hospital got the shirt with bullet hole in it along with the recovered slug and tagged it with the gun into evidence. Wrote up report. Not a lot of mystery or who dunits at that level of crime. The gun was an old .32 rev. The docs said the bullet bounced around inside like a pinball taking out various needed functions along the way.

One afternoon I was working a shooting in a bar, just arrived and dispatch called in another shooting on the back side of the same block. Well, according to wits my shooter ran that way, figured it might be related. Another unit rolled up on that one and dispatch came up with another shooting in the next block over from the last one, we figured our shooter was running amok. They all came down within about 5 minutes and all in the right direction of travel.
NOPE
After getting it all together and sorting it all out...
3 separate, distinct and totally unrelated shootings. within minutes and within a block radius.
Towards the end of my street time we started to slow down simply because the crazies had either killed each other off or were in prison or moved to healthier climates.
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Old 10-19-2019, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
You are wrong. Any projectile entering the human body causes the body to absorb energy to stop it. The human body is largely liquid so that energy radiates a hydraulic effect. Granted the energy might be less from a hand gun but none the less the more energy a bullet has striking and entering the body the more energy radiated around it as it slows the bullet.

If that physics is wrong please show your proof.
Energy does not equal damage. This is common sense of course, a car running into you at 1 MPH would transfer a massive amount of energy, and cause no damage. In fact the energy of a bullet is similar to getting hit by a baseball, yet baseballs rarely kill.

Another way to think of it is like a rubber band, you can stretch a band thousands of times if you do it slowly enough...but do it very rapidly and it snaps. Human tissue is much the same.

What has been determined is that the speed at which that energy is transferred is everything. And when it comes to bullets, at velocities lower than about 2000fps, energy transfer is not rapid enough to cause any damage to tissue that the bullet does not touch.

Once again, I refer people to the holy bible of handgun wounding physics:

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

If you don't have the time, this is summary:


Quote:
CONCLUSIONS
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."42, 43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
You are wrong. Any projectile entering the human body causes the body to absorb energy to stop it. The human body is largely liquid so that energy radiates a hydraulic effect. Granted the energy might be less from a hand gun but none the less the more energy a bullet has striking and entering the body the more energy radiated around it as it slows the bullet.

If that physics is wrong please show your proof.
At handgun velocities, what does that energy do? The answer is....nothing. Energy is not a mechanism of wounding. The entire concept of hydrostatic shock in low velocity rounds has been disproven.

I used this analogy in another thread:

Picture a balloon filled with water. That theoretical balloon requires at least 50 ft lbs of pressure to pop. Hitting it with 1 ft lb, or 49 will have the same effect. It will bulge, then return to normal.

Back to mechanisms of wounding - in handgun rounds, the velocity of the round is not high enough to cause any damage outside of the permanent wound cavity. A temporary wound cavity at sub-2000 fps velocities (some say as high as 2200 fps), is the same thing as hitting our hypothetical balloon with 1 to 49 ft lbs of force.

Energy calculations in ammunition are kind of a specious thing, in that ft lbs in ammo ratings are not actual ft lbs. They also do not differentiate between hitting a solid object where the round instantly stops, vs the gradual slow down of a penetrating object.

https://archive.org/stream/fbi-handg...eness_djvu.txt

"The reason is that most tissue in the human target is elastic in nature. Muscle, blood vessels, lung,
bowels, all are capable of substantial stretching with minimal damage. Studies have shown that the
outward velocity of the tissues in which the temporary cavity forms is no more than one tenth of the
velocity of the projectile. 21 This is well within the elasticity limits of tissue such as muscle, blood vessels,
and lungs, Only inelastic tissue like liver, or the extremely fragile tissues of the brain, would show
significant damage due to temporary cavitation. 22

The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush
mechanism is the hole the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is
the temporary cavity formed by the tissues being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path
of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only
handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue. 23 To cause significant injuries to a structure within
the body using a handgun, the bullet must penetrate the structure. Temporary cavity has no reliable
wounding effect in elastic body tissues. Temporary cavitation is nothing more than a stretch of the tissues,
generally no larger than 10 times the bullet diameter (in handgun calibers), and elastic tissues sustain
little, if any, residual damage"
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
Energy does not equal damage. This is common sense of course, a car running into you at 1 MPH would transfer a massive amount of energy, and cause no damage. In fact the energy of a bullet is similar to getting hit by a baseball, yet baseballs rarely kill.

Another way to think of it is like a rubber band, you can stretch a band thousands of times if you do it slowly enough...but do it very rapidly and it snaps. Human tissue is much the same.

What has been determined is that the speed at which that energy is transferred is everything. And when it comes to bullets, at velocities lower than about 2000fps, energy transfer is not rapid enough to cause any damage to tissue that the bullet does not touch.

Once again, I refer people to the holy bible of handgun wounding physics:

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

If you don't have the time, this is summary:
LOL. You beat me to it.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:01 AM
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Energy does not equal damage. This is common sense of course, a car running into you at 1 MPH would transfer a massive amount of energy, and cause no damage. In fact the energy of a bullet is similar to getting hit by a baseball, yet baseballs rarely kill.
NO! a thrown base ball has about 10.47 foot pounds of energy a .45 bullet ranges between 300 and 500 foot pounds of energy. Couple that with the energy is absorbed oner a larger per square inch of skin protecting major organs. A bullet penetrates the skin and the rest of that energy must be absorbed by the inner tissue.

Energy = .5 X Mass X Velocity squared.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
NO! a thrown base ball has about 10.47 foot pounds of energy a .45 bullet ranges between 300 and 500 foot pounds of energy. Couple that with the energy is absorbed oner a larger per square inch of skin protecting major organs. A bullet penetrates the skin and the rest of that energy must be absorbed by the inner tissue.

Energy = .5 X Mass X Velocity squared.
Elasticity makes a difference. See above.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
Energy does not equal damage. This is common sense of course, a car running into you at 1 MPH would transfer a massive amount of energy, and cause no damage.
NO!
A car at 45 mph has more energy than the same car at 1 mph. In fact almost 2,000 times as much.

Where two cars one the same as above 3,000 lbs another half that at 1500 lbs both traveling at 45 miles per hour. Heaver car has only 2 times more energy at 45 mph.

So energy increases proportionally to weight increases. While energy increases at the square of speed.

Again

Therefore the base ball analogy is irrelevant.

What matters is the energy left after penetration and how that energy is dissipated inside the body. This is why hollow point ammo is a more effective kill ammo. The radius of energy dissipation is grater.

This is why one can shoot a person with .556 ammo and if it does not hit an organ or artery survival is likely. Shoot the same round into a pine tree and it will kill the tree. All the energy is dissipated inside the pine tree where in the person there is enough to go through and through.

A hand gun round with a velocity as low as 800 feet per second is going 545 miles per hour. The baseball analogy is absurd.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:31 AM
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What has been determined is that the speed at which that energy is transferred is everything. And when it comes to bullets, at velocities lower than about 2000fps, energy transfer is not rapid enough to cause any damage to tissue that the bullet does not touch.
The fact that the tissue snaps back is irrelevant what is important is the damage done to the functioning of the tissue. The fact that the tissue absorbing the energy is able to settle back in the same place does not mean it is undamaged or can or will function as before. Or even can heal to function as before.

The sum total of that damage causes pain and trauma all of which contribute to stopping power.

A pine tree killed with a .556 is just as dead even if it has not lost its pine-needles yet. It stopped its tree life function immediately.

The sum total of a head or torso shot is no less a function of energy dissipation within the body is far greater than being hit by a baseball. If it were not we would still be throwing rocks at each other.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:44 AM
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My take away. Never bring a pistol to a rifle or a shotgun fight.
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:11 PM
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The fact that the tissue snaps back is irrelevant what is important is the damage done to the functioning of the tissue. The fact that the tissue absorbing the energy is able to settle back in the same place does not mean it is undamaged or can or will function as before. Or even can heal to function as before.

The sum total of that damage causes pain and trauma all of which contribute to stopping power.

A pine tree killed with a .556 is just as dead even if it has not lost its pine-needles yet. It stopped its tree life function immediately.

The sum total of a head or torso shot is no less a function of energy dissipation within the body is far greater than being hit by a baseball. If it were not we would still be throwing rocks at each other.
Did you even read the document we linked? All of your arguments are addressed and debunked.
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Old 10-19-2019, 01:11 PM
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Did you even read the document we linked? All of your arguments are addressed and debunked.
Indeed. Please read the link and then come back.

It was momentum that I meant when talking about baseballs and bullets though, you got me there.
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Old 10-19-2019, 01:33 PM
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I tend to take the stopping power debate with a grain of salt. All commonly used self defense handguns/calibers have the necessary power to stop.


The genuine measure of stopping power is nowhere to be found in handgun/caliber debates, stats or anecdotal comparisons. True stopping power is directly related (in proportion) to the skill and ability of the person wielding the handgun.


If you want to possess true stopping power, then push yourself away from the keyboard go to the range and work on your skills and abilities.
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Old 10-19-2019, 02:42 PM
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They will just continue to ignore it and site anecdotal evidence from a coroner they once they once knew or old cop buddy.

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I PERSONALLY investigated over 1000 shootings... not something I read or heard about. IF I had kept an accurate count over the years it could have been as high as 2000. You get tired of keeping track after a while, you know they just sort of run together... "SHOOT thy neighbor" was one of the most followed commandments in the hood.

BUT


Calibers beginning with .4 overwhelmingly put people down, stopped fights, canceled aggression over everything else that could considered a regular handgun round. NOT saying they are INSTANT DEATH... what I am saying is I never had to fight or restrain anyone hit with a .4. They always seemed quite content to lay there and hope not to die, all thoughts of aggression sort of gone out of them.

One of the most interesting ones, 2 officers responding to B&E, BG is running for a 10' high fence, makes a gun like gesture, officer 1 pops a 125gr .357HP at him, hitting him in the ribs, through and through, BG turns and starts climbing fence. Officer 1 closes, tries to pull THE SHOT GUY off the fence, gets kicked in the head, knocked semiconscious, officer 2 gets in position to fire, sticks the muzzle of his Model 29 through the fence and fires. Hits BG in left upper arm with a .44Special load. According to officer, as I was taking the report, BG did a complete 360 spin, went down, stayed down never moved until ambulance hauled him away.

Even though a nonfatal or even life threatening hit, it was pretty much the results from impact with a .4. I was a skeptic at first when they brought out the ,40S&W which we all heard stood for "short and weak" Well, lemmetellya, it worked just the same. Something about that extra bullet diameter just makes a lot of difference. at least in my experience.

I had a guy shot 3 times with a .25 auto while wearing one of those silk wife beaters so popular back then. The shirt was sucked into the wound channels. When they went to take the shirt off of him, the bullets popped out. The silk had caught them and when the ER doc went to remove the shirt the 3 little pills hit the floor.

Bullets do weird things.
I will go with the 1000 investigations, for these questions:

-Do you remember where the majority of shots were placed on the body?
-How many shots were placed on the body v how many were fired?
-In what year did you first start and in what year did you finish?

If all we are talking about is ending a fight and not "killing" or "instant incapacitation". I have yet to find anyone who wanted to stand in front of a 380 and take one. Eventhough they said something with a .4 was far superior.

Just curious, because my father in law just retired as a 20 year detective in NEW ORLEANS. One of the most violent cities in America and over the last 20 years he had exactly 892 violent cases come across his desk and not all were firearm related.
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Old 10-19-2019, 08:55 PM
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I tend to take the stopping power debate with a grain of salt. All commonly used self defense handguns/calibers have the necessary power to stop.

The genuine measure of stopping power is nowhere to be found in handgun/caliber debates, stats or anecdotal comparisons. True stopping power is directly related (in proportion) to the skill and ability of the person wielding the handgun.

If you want to possess true stopping power, then push yourself away from the keyboard go to the range and work on your skills and abilities.
I agree. I have always argued against bigger is better for every gun owner.

If ability and execution are equal what else makes a difference? That I thought was the purpose of the discussion.

This was the post that started the argument:
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
No.

A handgun projectile doesn't cause more damage if it doesn't exit. "Energy" is a meaningless term in that respect.

Handgun bullets don't radiate death and destruction as they pass through. They poke a hole. That's it.
My argument was damage is a function of “mass” meaning size of the round. As one goes from .22 up the mass of the bullet increases. The other item damage is a function of is “velocity”.

We all know the ammo velocity for a given ammo is a function of barrel length. No one argued differently. Rifles have more velocity for a given ammo than a handgun. No on argued differently. Shorter handgun barrels result in less velocity than longer ones given the same ammo. No one argued differently.

The article says, “Kinetic energy does not wound.” That is a lie! “Kinetic energy does not wound.” If not what does?

“Penetration less than 12 inches is too little…” How does a bullet get any penetration or 12 inches of penetration without “kinetic energy”? “Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet.” What two factors are necessary for a sizeable bullet to penetrate far enough? Kinetic energy, which is one half the “bullet size”, times “the velocity of that bullet squared.” That is the scientific formula for kinetic energy.

From what I can find out the average 5’9” man has a torso thickness of 9.5”. I am short and over weight 5’7” and my torso thickness is about 14”. So based on this article to do major damage a bullet must penetrate 70 to 100% through a human body. I do not think so. A chest shot is likely to hit part of the following: chest includes the chest wall, ribs, spine, spinal cord, intercostal neurovascular bundles, lungs, bronchi, heart, aorta, major vessels, esophagus, thoracic duct, and diaphragm. An abdominal shot is likely to hit part of the following: “stomach, small bowel, colon, liver, spleen, pancreas, kidneys, spine, diaphragm, descending aorta, and other abdominal vessels and nerves.

Medical experts report “gunshots to the chest can thus cause severe bleeding (hemothorax), respiratory compromise (pneumothorax, hemothorax, pulmonary contusion, tracheobronchial injury), cardiac injury (pericardial tamponade), esophageal injury, and nervous system injury.” “Gunshots to the abdomen can thus cause severe bleeding, release of bowel contents, peritonitis, organ rupture, respiratory compromise, and neurological deficits.”

Yet the article says: “It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.” This is pure BS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
In fact the energy of a bullet is similar to getting hit by a baseball, yet baseballs rarely kill.
I have already proven (see post above) that your statement is a lie.

To make matters worse you are misusing the article. The article states “Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing. In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps).”

“A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32 Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.”

I do not think I ever addressed “knock-down power”. Neither example is the equivalent of a 9mm or .45ACP round hitting a human.

Here is the physics: “A light object traveling fast is more damaging than a heavy object with the same momentum traveling slowly because it carries more energy.”

Plus even the kinetic energy of a baseball without penetration can cause internal tissue damage to the torso resulting in death. When I was a boy, I was at a Pony League baseball game. A brother of a boy I was in Little League with was catching. He was hit in the chest, while wearing a proper chest protector, and died. He died right there on the field. That is a fact.

The FBI author of this article was attempting to warn LEO against myths. The result was an article cloaked in ignorance.

Human tissue does have a lot of elasticity. But, kinetic energy increases with mass, which the article admits, increases the damage at and around the path of penetration. Kinetic energy increases with increases in velocity, which increases the length of penetration of the mass.

Yea I read the article and most of it is wrong. A bullet cannot penetrate at all without kinetic energy. For a bullet to lose its kinetic energy it must transfer that energy to either to the air in the form of fraction or in a body in the form of damage. The fact that human body tissue is somewhat elastic does not mean as the kinetic energy of a bullet increases as a result of increases in mass or velocity or both does not increase the wound.

The author is an idiot and the article is a half-truth lie.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armtx77 View Post
I will go with the 1000 investigations, for these questions:

-Do you remember where the majority of shots were placed on the body?
-How many shots were placed on the body v how many were fired?
-In what year did you first start and in what year did you finish?

If all we are talking about is ending a fight and not "killing" or "instant incapacitation". I have yet to find anyone who wanted to stand in front of a 380 and take one. Eventhough they said something with a .4 was far superior.
.
YOU are kidding right?

We are talking about hundreds and hundreds of people shot from nose to toes with everything from .22 shorts to 12ga slugs and everything in between. Certain ones stand out because they were unique, like the guy who had a single 12ga stuck into his stomach and his wife pulled the trigger and blew a softball size hole out his back. ... and lived. The guy shot in the back of the head with a 12ga slug, and had his head turned into a Jackson Pollack.
I remember well the guy shot with 5- 9mms because he had to be physically restrained to wait for the ambulance because I didn't want my shooting to turn into a homicide. I really remember the drug kingpin who had 13 9mm holes in his body as he lay next to his brand new running Corvette wearing his gold Rolex watch with over $5000 in cash in his pockets..(we ruled out robbery as a motive)
Another was where a dealer was chased out of his house and shot 7 times with a .45 colt auto and then run over 3 times with his own van. A wit said as the killers were driving out one end of the block I was coming in on the other end. 5 seconds faster and I would have seen them leaving. He was so dead it was hard to say what really killed him.
but
to think that I can remember who specifically was shot 3 times with a .357 and exactly where and missed twice... I have a good memory but not that good. Also in street shootings unless you found the brass on the street you would have wits telling you they heard from 2-10 number of shots at the same incident.
and
to tell the truth.. after so many same as usual they get boring and repetitious so unless there was something very strange about it, you did the paperwork and forgot about it.

A majority of our shootings were with standard calibers with a fair number of oldies thrown in. .32S&W longs, .32 Savage, things like that along with boat loads of 9mm and .38spec. Very few of the homicides with the .4s when they were used. but you shoot someone with enough .22s or .32s they die, just not as fast as some other rounds.

When we did have the shooting with a .4 it usually stood out because there wasn't the usual drama that went with it of the vic trying to do something "manly " and showing how little concern he had for his superficial heart wound. Putting on a great face was big in the hood.

I was on the street in uniform from 73-92 then I went to det in UC narcotics and assigned to one of the large multijurisdictional conglomerate units involving locals state and feds for the next 5+ years.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
I agree. I have always argued against bigger is better for every gun owner.

If ability and execution are equal what else makes a difference? That I thought was the purpose of the discussion.

This was the post that started the argument:


My argument was damage is a function of “mass” meaning size of the round. As one goes from .22 up the mass of the bullet increases. The other item damage is a function of is “velocity”.

We all know the ammo velocity for a given ammo is a function of barrel length. No one argued differently. Rifles have more velocity for a given ammo than a handgun. No on argued differently. Shorter handgun barrels result in less velocity than longer ones given the same ammo. No one argued differently.
Barrel length is far from the only variable effecting velocity in regards to the difference between rifles and handguns

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
The article says, “Kinetic energy does not wound.” That is a lie! “Kinetic energy does not wound.” If not what does?

“Penetration less than 12 inches is too little…” How does a bullet get any penetration or 12 inches of penetration without “kinetic energy”? “Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet.” What two factors are necessary for a sizeable bullet to penetrate far enough? Kinetic energy, which is one half the “bullet size”, times “the velocity of that bullet squared.” That is the scientific formula for kinetic energy.
Kinetic energy is not a mechanism of injury in handgun rounds. The energy itself does not cause injury. As long as there is sufficient energy to cause a round to penetrate 12-18" of properly calibrated porcine gel, and reliably expand, there is sufficient energy. More does not equal better.

All modern self defense ammunition, made by major manufacturers is designed with those testing parameters in mind. That is why, regardless of caliber, you will universally see those benchmarks being hit. 45 cal? Yep...designed to penetrate 12-18". 40 cal? Same. 9mm? Same. Different calibers and bullet designs require different amounts of velocity to achieve the same goal. That translates to differing amounts of "energy" to have the rounds perform similarly.None of those amounts of energy contributes to additional wounding above and beyond that achieved by the aforementioned penetration and expansion. For "energy" to add to the wounding achieved, it would require enough to drive a given round at least 2000 fps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
From what I can find out the average 5’9” man has a torso thickness of 9.5”. I am short and over weight 5’7” and my torso thickness is about 14”. So based on this article to do major damage a bullet must penetrate 70 to 100% through a human body. I do not think so. A chest shot is likely to hit part of the following: chest includes the chest wall, ribs, spine, spinal cord, intercostal neurovascular bundles, lungs, bronchi, heart, aorta, major vessels, esophagus, thoracic duct, and diaphragm. An abdominal shot is likely to hit part of the following: “stomach, small bowel, colon, liver, spleen, pancreas, kidneys, spine, diaphragm, descending aorta, and other abdominal vessels and nerves.
The amount of penetration required is based on penetration in properly calibrated porcine gel, which mimics living human muscle very well. This fact is borne-out in post mortem examinations comparing rounds to their performance in gel.

The human chest is not all muscle. Some of it is covered in bone, depending on angle, some of it is essentially an air pocket, some is muscle, etc. 12-18" of penetration in gel has been shown to correlate to adequate penetration through all of those mediums, in the average human torso, as well as accounting for heavy clothing, sitting in a vehicle, being turned sideways (or off-angle), potentially passing through an arm bone, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
Medical experts report “gunshots to the chest can thus cause severe bleeding (hemothorax), respiratory compromise (pneumothorax, hemothorax, pulmonary contusion, tracheobronchial injury), cardiac injury (pericardial tamponade), esophageal injury, and nervous system injury.” “Gunshots to the abdomen can thus cause severe bleeding, release of bowel contents, peritonitis, organ rupture, respiratory compromise, and neurological deficits.”

Yet the article says: “It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.” This is pure BS!
Unless you have a background as a trauma surgeon with a substantial dataset, or have conducted enough repeatable testing to gather an equally substantial dataset, your belief that the science is bs is what is bs. Again, there have been several studies comparing actual street results to results of shooting gel. Remarkably, they correlate incredibly closely. The most famous study was done by Eugene Wollberg.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
I have already proven (see post above) that your statement is a lie.
You have proven nothing. You have misapplied basic physics. "Foot pounds" as noted on ammunition boxes are not true foot pounds. Or is it your contention that a round that claims 500 ft lbs is actually capable of lifting a 500 pound weight one foot off the ground? More on this below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
To make matters worse you are misusing the article. The article states “Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing. In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps).”

“A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32 Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.”

I do not think I ever addressed “knock-down power”. Neither example is the equivalent of a 9mm or .45ACP round hitting a human.

Here is the physics: “A light object traveling fast is more damaging than a heavy object with the same momentum traveling slowly because it carries more energy.”

Plus even the kinetic energy of a baseball without penetration can cause internal tissue damage to the torso resulting in death. When I was a boy, I was at a Pony League baseball game. A brother of a boy I was in Little League with was catching. He was hit in the chest, while wearing a proper chest protector, and died. He died right there on the field. That is a fact.
Freak outlier occurrences are not what ballistic science (or any science) relies on. Because something might happen (eg dying from getting hit in the chest with a baseball), does not mean it will happen. Again, conflating the force of an item which stops essentially immediately upon impact, at the surface of the item struck, to an item which gradually slows after penetrating the target, is a non-starter. Dive head-first into a pool of water from a 10-ft diving board. Now replicate that onto hard pavement. All other variables are equal.

The fact remains, without exceding 2000fps, a round is not capable of overcoming the elasticity of the human body (with the exception of specific organ tissues). It doesn't matter how big you make the round (in a realistic sense). Energy beyond what is needed to cause penetration and expansion is absorbed by the natural elasticity of the body, at normal handgun round velocities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
The FBI author of this article was attempting to warn LEO against myths. The result was an article cloaked in ignorance.
Considering the author actually cited his sources (many of whom actually had direct input into the article), and considering that many of them are lifelong students of the subject, with incredibly large sample sizes, the only thing cloaked in ignorance is your insistence as a layperson, that you somehow know better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
Human tissue does have a lot of elasticity. But, kinetic energy increases with mass, which the article admits, increases the damage at and around the path of penetration. Kinetic energy increases with increases in velocity, which increases the length of penetration of the mass.

Yea I read the article and most of it is wrong. A bullet cannot penetrate at all without kinetic energy. For a bullet to lose its kinetic energy it must transfer that energy to either to the air in the form of fraction or in a body in the form of damage. The fact that human body tissue is somewhat elastic does not mean as the kinetic energy of a bullet increases as a result of increases in mass or velocity or both does not increase the wound.
False

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
The author is an idiot and the article is a half-truth lie.
If your academic background is such that you can make that statement, I'm certain you have multiple peer-reviewed articles on the subject. If not, you're kinda like a kid who read a high school "Physics for Dummies" book, calling Einstein an idiot.

The US military, all major manufacturers of ammunition, the FBI, NATO, and all of the major civilian labs that study ballistics agree across the board with the article above. It is probably one of the most concise, often-cited writings out there. Additionally, the results are borne out every day, with every additional autopsy performed. You can argue it until you are blue in the face - it won't change the above.
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