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Old 12-03-2015, 03:02 PM
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Limping Crow claims that Muslims include themselves in that category, along with Christians and Jews, and that the Qu'ran also uses that term in reference to Muslims. I have never seen anything that corroborates that, so at LC's request I am starting a thread in this forum so he can provide me with a reputable source.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:14 PM
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Thanks for creating the thread, but I dont expect to last here long.

You told me earlier to go "research" my view, in essence I am telling you the same. Reason is it is obvious to you and to me we are not going to see eye to eye. I will not change your opinion nor will you change mine. Both of us will view whatever information is presented with our own bias. To think otherwise is not being truthfully with ourselves. I am sure you have a Qu'ran to reference and other texts and if you do you will see that term used. You will also see the reference in scripts that have been written after the Qu'ran by Muslims. There are various texts to refer to that. I dont want to convert you, nor do I want to be converted.

Dont worry, I am not your enemy. If you want to know my religious views feel free to ask.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ella View Post
Limping Crow claims that Muslims include themselves in that category, along with Christians and Jews, and that the Qu'ran also uses that term in reference to Muslims. I have never seen anything that corroborates that, so at LC's request I am starting a thread in this forum so he can provide me with a reputable source.
Since they both came late to the table, Muslims have as much (and possibly more) claim to the title than any modern-day protestant or evangelical.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ella View Post
Limping Crow claims that Muslims include themselves in that category, along with Christians and Jews, and that the Qu'ran also uses that term in reference to Muslims. I have never seen anything that corroborates that, so at LC's request I am starting a thread in this forum so he can provide me with a reputable source.
Having read the Qu'ran - it's best to know your enemy - there are a handful of references to people of the book. I couldn't give them to you chapter and verse because I don't know that book like I know the Bible but they are there. HOWEVER. They all refer to/exhort the people of the book to agree that we all worship allah and one calls belief in the divinity of Jesus a heresy.

Since Allah is Al'Ilah, the Meccan moon god stripped of his pantheon, it isn't accurate to say that Chrisitianity, Judiaism, and Islam all worship the same diety.

What the hadith say, I can't comment on.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:20 PM
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LC, I want to make my motives clear here. I'm not trying to set this up as a "gotcha". If you are correct in this then I want to know. I have been trying to find something that supports your claim via Google and have so far been unsuccessful. All I'm asking for here is a legitimate source that backs up your claim. If you don't have one, that's fine, too. Just say so.

I can't just be expected to take your word for it when all of the many books, literature, videos, and Muslims I've spoken with, etc. state something completely contrary to what you claim.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:42 PM
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I am touch and go at work but will dig it up.
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Old 12-03-2015, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Having read the Qu'ran - it's best to know your enemy - there are a handful of references to people of the book. I couldn't give them to you chapter and verse because I don't know that book like I know the Bible but they are there. HOWEVER. They all refer to/exhort the people of the book to agree that we all worship allah and one calls belief in the divinity of Jesus a heresy.

Since Allah is Al'Ilah, the Meccan moon god stripped of his pantheon, it isn't accurate to say that Chrisitianity, Judiaism, and Islam all worship the same diety.

What the hadith say, I can't comment on.
That is true, if one splits hairs, then none of them worship the same god.
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Old 12-03-2015, 04:24 PM
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I concede to ella here. After pulling up what was actually written. You are correct, People of the Book refers to the three faiths to other faiths, but in Islamic Law refers to people who who though are of the book, are not of the "whole" book, which in turn references Islam.

So, Lawful Muslims would NOT consider themselves people of the book. The phrase is used many times, but in reference to others.
I stand corrected, for now.
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Old 12-03-2015, 04:39 PM
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That was my understanding of it, but I was prepared to learn if I was mistaken. Thanks for taking the time, LC.
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Old 12-03-2015, 05:21 PM
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The entire "People of the Book" thing is just another, "How can we fool them today" lie.

Mohammed pulled is new faith from many other faiths to make it appear legitimate in the eyes of those he wanted to influence/convert. By converting the pagan Moon God, Allah into the only God, he was able to convert pagans to Monotheism by jettisoning the other 359 lesser pagan Gods, which made everyone's life easier and did not require pagsn converts to 100% abandon all their old beliefs.

My claiming descent from Abraham and also claiming to being visited by the Angel Gabriel (Ja-Brill) further legitimised the new religion with Christians and Jews.

These were all good marketing strategies employed by many faiths to get new adherents, without requiring they give up 100% of their old beliefs initially. These lies also provided some protection to Muslim communities, who could claim, "We are all worshippers of the same God", so please tolerate us and don't kill us etc.

This strategy has been adopted by the Mormons, Scientology, The Moonies and other cults, etc. because it works.

Don't be fooled by these and other lies.
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Old 12-03-2015, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ella View Post
Limping Crow claims that Muslims include themselves in that category, along with Christians and Jews, and that the Qu'ran also uses that term in reference to Muslims. I have never seen anything that corroborates that, so at LC's request I am starting a thread in this forum so he can provide me with a reputable source.
sura 98:6 (Muhsin Khan translation)
Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

source quran.com
http://quran.com/98/6-16
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Old 12-03-2015, 05:41 PM
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I dont really disagree mauser, but on the same note Christianity did the same thing. So we need to level the playing field. Only religion that I know of for the most part, that really doesnt/didnt go out and seek to convert people is Judaism.
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Old 12-03-2015, 05:47 PM
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sura 98:6 (Muhsin Khan translation)
Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

source quran.com
http://quran.com/98/6-16
[But] they are not all alike: among the followers of earlier revelation there are upright people,1 who recite God's messages throughout the night, and prostrate themselves [before Him].
They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.

3:113-115
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Old 12-03-2015, 06:03 PM
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[But] they are not all alike: among the followers of earlier revelation there are upright people,1 who recite God's messages throughout the night, and prostrate themselves [before Him].
They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.

3:113-115
and the next few verses after that

3:116

Surely, those who reject Faith (disbelieve in Muhammad SAW as being Allah's Prophet and in all that which he has brought from Allah), neither their properties, nor their offspring will avail them aught against Allah. They are the dwellers of the Fire, therein they will abide.

3:118

O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.
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Old 12-03-2015, 06:19 PM
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and the next few verses after that

3:116

Surely, those who reject Faith (disbelieve in Muhammad SAW as being Allah's Prophet and in all that which he has brought from Allah), neither their properties, nor their offspring will avail them aught against Allah. They are the dwellers of the Fire, therein they will abide.

3:118

O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.
And if indeed you are slain or die in God's cause, then surely forgiveness from God and His grace are better than all that one could amass [in this world]:


Damn, ok wrong verse. lol.

A question will linger though and this is interpretation. Regardless of the text, whether it is OT or NT or the Qu'ran, etc etc. Is how one absorbs what they are reading that makes a difference. Now the trouble makers in Islam if you notice are those that are big on the "law" of Islam. There are other sects that turn thier backs on the majority of the "law", such as Sufists. You wont find a Sufist killing people for Allah, you will never hear of them blowing themselves up for Allah either.

For instance, getting back to interpretation. Jesus stated he was the son of God. To some they take that literally, that he was the actually son of God, while someone likes me views it differently, and view it that he was a son of God, a child of God as all of us are.
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Old 12-03-2015, 06:37 PM
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I always understood "People of the Book" refers to the 2 biggest religious groups of the Middle east as mohummed was writing...the Jews & the Christians.

Of special interest is that in reference to dietary requirements 'that which is clean for People of the Book is clean for the muslim" (paraphrasing)

Which means straight away the recent invention of halal certification is even more bogus. it also, as I remember it sets out that if the muslim is having trouble he is to turn to People of the Book.

Seeing as hamas & hesbollah have as their core doctrinal aim the destruction of Israel and all Jews, well you gotta wonder what else psycopaths will do when they get organised into groups.

islam is I agree a completely different religion from Judaism & Christianity. It denies the divinity of Christ so it is completely different to Christianity...and therefore Judaism.

If you deny Christ as deity you are not Christian in any way shape or form...
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Old 12-03-2015, 06:42 PM
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Now the trouble makers in Islam if you notice are those that are big on the "law" of Islam. There are other sects that turn thier backs on the majority of the "law", such as Sufists. You wont find a Sufist killing people for Allah, you will never hear of them blowing themselves up for Allah either.
From what I understand the Ahmadiyyas are rather peaceful people as well. I've always found their sect interesting.

it's been a while since i've used quran.com and they seem to have changed the website. i prefer the older interface :-/

I like the Muhsin Khan translation because on quran.com it has little texts in parenthesis in some of the verses. Though I'm not aware of any good quran commentaries.
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:17 PM
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From what I understand the Ahmadiyyas are rather peaceful people as well. I've always found their sect interesting.

it's been a while since i've used quran.com and they seem to have changed the website. i prefer the older interface :-/

I like the Muhsin Khan translation because on quran.com it has little texts in parenthesis in some of the verses. Though I'm not aware of any good quran commentaries.
I have a old set of books from the 60's which go into commentaries on 6 major religions. Not a bad set, though tiresome to read to be honest. I find the Sufists interesting since they focus on the mysticism rather than the law. As the Ahmadiyyas, they are also considered outcasts from main stream Islam.

The ****es and the sunnis it seems often take breaks from trying to do each other in to take care of the others.

I need to read more I think.
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:31 PM
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Islam is I agree a completely different religion from Judaism & Christianity. It denies the divinity of Christ so it is completely different to Christianity...and therefore Judaism.

If you deny Christ as deity you are not Christian in any way shape or form...


The divinity of Jesus was decided by a vote of humans assembled 325 years after the purported birth of Jesus, in the First Council of Nicaea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

The vote to declare Jesus divine was not unanimous The council decided for divinity overwhelmingly, with 250 of the 318 attendees voting for divinity. All but two agreed to sign the creed and these two, along with the priest Arius, were banished to Illyria.
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Since Allah is Al'Ilah, the Meccan moon god stripped of his pantheon, it isn't accurate to say that Chrisitianity, Judiaism, and Islam all worship the same diety.

What the hadith say, I can't comment on.
Where do you get that Allah is Al'Ilah? The God of the Muslium faith is the "God of Abraham, which is the same God of the Jews and Christian faiths...

Brother Don, Catholic Hermit

Last edited by BrotherDon; 12-03-2015 at 08:40 PM.. Reason: spell checking...
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