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Old 06-06-2019, 09:27 PM
Idaho Survivalist Idaho Survivalist is offline
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Today I watched the Paul Harrell critique of the Miami-Dade shoot out on You-tube Sure would recommend that all gun owners preparing for SHTF watch that. That ex-Marine is one tactical firearms expert.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:11 PM
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One of the few You Tube channels I subscribe to. Always something good to learn or laugh about.
Here's the link.

https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:22 AM
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what specifically about the miami dade shooting should we focus on?
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:41 AM
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I watched that last week.

1. Mr Murphy reared his fugly head and always will.
2. Six shots is not enough.
3. Accuracy goes out the window the minute it becomes a two way range.
4. Be prepared for things to become a cluster.
5. Fast reloads are critical.
6. No matter how experienced you are you can still die.
7. Always bring more firepower than you think you will need.
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Idaho Survivalist View Post
Today I watched the Paul Harrell critique of the Miami-Dade shoot out on You-tube Sure would recommend that all gun owners preparing for SHTF watch that. That ex-Marine is one tactical firearms expert.
Paul is the bomb. I watched that video a while back. Very good.
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:41 AM
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i find it interesting people keep pointing to the miami dade incident to reinforce their personal beliefs over what was essentially a bunch of poorly trained ****-ups on the side of the FBI.. the only takeaway you need from it is do not be as inept as barney fife, and actually train with what you plan to use
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
2. Six shots is not enough.
I thought the fight was ended with a cop firing a 6 shot 357 into the car and killing the two gunmen. I only watch Paul Harrell for laughs. It cracks me up when he says "Don't try this at home. I'm a professional". A professional what? Or when he used to say "Don't try this at home. I'm a professional YouTuber". What? Did he go to school to be a professional youtuber?
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:11 PM
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I think it was the 9mm that nicked his ticker, but just a bit to late.

Biggest lesson, when you know your adversary has a rifle bring appropriate armor and a rifle yourself, or accept the risk.
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:30 PM
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i find it interesting people keep pointing to the miami dade incident to reinforce their personal beliefs over what was essentially a bunch of poorly trained ****-ups on the side of the FBI.. the only takeaway you need from it is do not be as inept as barney fife, and actually train with what you plan to use
This was 1986, and most cops were relatively poorly trained, especially investigative agencies rarely involved in gunfights at the time. They still did better than most of the internet tactical armchair guru's would do under similar circumstances.

Training has come a long way since then, partly due to the awful lessons learned that day.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:38 AM
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Miami-Dade is like the modern day OK corral.
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Old 06-09-2019, 10:14 AM
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what specifically about the miami dade shooting should we focus on?
Nothing really.

When it happened, lots of LEO's still carried revolvers, and 9mm loads weren't as good as they are now.

It's interesting reading but the lessons are pretty much obsolete.
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Old 06-09-2019, 10:46 AM
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This was 1986, and most cops were relatively poorly trained, especially investigative agencies rarely involved in gunfights at the time. They still did better than most of the internet tactical armchair guru's would do under similar circumstances.

Training has come a long way since then, partly due to the awful lessons learned that day.
And how much more advanced now, are most civilians who carry a gun these days, even compared to what training they had back then?

I just watched the video above and thought he did a pretty good job of going over things.

I thought his point of the major malfunctions being lack of marksmanship and lack of preparation were pretty much spot on.

To put that in perspective, how well is the average civilian who carries a handgun, "prepared", and in both of those respects? Do you have enough gun with its necessary accessories on you right this second, and more importantly, the realistic skills to use it?
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Old 06-09-2019, 10:51 AM
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It's interesting reading but the lessons are pretty much obsolete.
I wouldnt go that far. Still, plenty to be learned, if youre willing to learn.

Especially when you consider many people carrying a gun these days, dont carry a reasonable gun on a daily basis, and dont likely have even the basic training those agents had back then.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:59 PM
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I wouldnt go that far. Still, plenty to be learned, if youre willing to learn.

Especially when you consider many people carrying a gun these days, dont carry a reasonable gun on a daily basis, and dont likely have even the basic training those agents had back then.
They aren't too likely to be in any "firefights" either.
The agents were hunting dangerous criminals who had them outgunned.

The main lesson I see is "shot placement matters most".
I knew that long before the shootout took place.
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:31 PM
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They aren't too likely to be in any "firefights" either.
The agents were hunting dangerous criminals who had them outgunned.

The main lesson I see is "shot placement matters most".
I knew that long before the shootout took place.
Thats kind of the whole purpose of the 7 P's.

You may never be in a firefight, but are you prepared and ready for the one you dont want, but still get? If not, whats the point in carrying a gun?

And whos to say, if your turn in the barrel comes along, those same dangerous criminal's arent hunting you? Somebody is always hunting somebody. Hunter or prey, either way, being unprepared isnt good.

And absolutely, while only one part of the whole equation, shot placement is a key part of it. The question is, are you prepared enough that you can you do it "on demand" at any given moment, and with what you have.

Realistically, shooting wise, you have to base things on your worst, or at least, your average. Not your one time best effort.

Its what you can do in the moment, with what you have, thats going to be it.

If youre starting off with the wrong equipment, and little or no training and practice, all thats left, is luck and hope.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:10 PM
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They aren't too likely to be in any "firefights" either.
The agents were hunting dangerous criminals who had them outgunned.

The main lesson I see is "shot placement matters most".
I knew that long before the shootout took place.
They were sorta hunting bad guys. The agents who were involved in the gunfight were not supposed to be (yeah, I know...can't assume you won't be). There were actually teams of FBI Regional SWAT guys that were supposed to engage, once Platt and Matix were located.

Platt and Matix were seen by some of the agents who were out looking, with the plan being, if they were located, they would keep their distance, and advise one of the SWAT teams. Unfortunately, once they were located, their behavior was such that the closest team (which was stuck a couple miles away in traffic), was unable to get to the agents in time to get involved with the stop. Some of the "eyes" located the vehicle in question, and the closest other backup to them were other car-loads of "eyes," not the anticipated SWAT guys.

Harrell was absolutely correct about none of the agents having any experience in one-handed manipulation of the shotgun, at the time of the shootout. Mireles made it up right there, and the subject began being taught as a direct result of the shootout, to future agents.
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Old 06-09-2019, 07:25 PM
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And how much more advanced now, are most civilians who carry a gun these days, even compared to what training they had back then?

I just watched the video above and thought he did a pretty good job of going over things.

I thought his point of the major malfunctions being lack of marksmanship and lack of preparation were pretty much spot on.

To put that in perspective, how well is the average civilian who carries a handgun, "prepared", and in both of those respects? Do you have enough gun with its necessary accessories on you right this second, and more importantly, the realistic skills to use it?
i dont know about the average citizen, because that'd also include little old ladies that stick one in their purse and never touch it again, but the majority of people on SB, certainly in the firearms section i'd put my money on having more practice, training, and skill than those agents did
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Old 06-09-2019, 07:38 PM
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The main lesson learned was no matter what whether One likes the Idea or not One of my mentors in the Corps always said "when it comes to a gunfight the Enemy does get a vote. So get used to that idea whether you like it or not it's a FACT and FACTS do not have to be fair. " JMHO and S/FI!
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
i dont know about the average citizen, because that'd also include little old ladies that stick one in their purse and never touch it again, but the majority of people on SB, certainly in the firearms section i'd put my money on having more practice, training, and skill than those agents did
Whether taken advantage of or not, civilians have a lot of excellent training options and much of it is scenario-based. While I would say the typical LEO training has also vastly improved and evolved, the civilian-side isn't too far behind and likely superior to the beat-cops of that era.

Regardless, all lessons are valuable if analyzed in proper context and appropriately applied to one's situation. I do agree that the best aspect of the Miami-Dade shooting was how well it was documented for use as a case-study. Lessons learned are valuable if they are documented and detailed enough for study.

I'm not a LEO, I won't have backup coming. While I do carry a spare mag for the pistol, if I'm away from the house or truck, I'm really not in a position to engage an active shooter unless it's right in front of me. As mentioned, the probability of doing a reload, using a backup gun, using your weak-hand/on-handed, etc. are all pretty low in documented shootings, they all happened in Miami-Dade. Instead of critiquing the actions of the agents, it's more helpful to understand decision making, importance of planning/preparation, importance of marksmanship under stress, real-world hit probability, importance of intel, etc. You use other's lessons not as a "this is what I would have done" analysis, but one to critique your own TTPs or how to improve your own scenario-based training or improve your own planning and preparation.

I do like Paul Harrell's videos; he does a great job of analyzing and discussing...

ROCK6
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:31 PM
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Thats kind of the whole purpose of the 7 P's.

You may never be in a firefight, but are you prepared and ready for the one you dont want, but still get? If not, whats the point in carrying a gun?

And whos to say, if your turn in the barrel comes along, those same dangerous criminal's arent hunting you? Somebody is always hunting somebody. Hunter or prey, either way, being unprepared isnt good.

And absolutely, while only one part of the whole equation, shot placement is a key part of it. The question is, are you prepared enough that you can you do it "on demand" at any given moment, and with what you have.

Realistically, shooting wise, you have to base things on your worst, or at least, your average. Not your one time best effort.

Its what you can do in the moment, with what you have, thats going to be it.

If youre starting off with the wrong equipment, and little or no training and practice, all thats left, is luck and hope.
Like I said, I knew all that stuff long before this "shoot-out" ever happened.

There's not much that can be learned from it that can't be learned a million other ways.

It's mostly just common sense.
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