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Old 02-19-2013, 10:11 AM
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
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Interesting concept Ellen. But it sounds impractical. The fact you have problems with break ins indicate a bad area. Where I live now I leave my stuff unlocked and unsecured and do not have problems. Previous places I lived that was not the case. I prefer when I do not need to worry that my truck keys are frequently left in the ignition and I do not fear vandalism when I take a trip someplace.

Based on your description the property and of what you are looking for in terms of additional people, I could see you attracting only the wrong sort. People with nothing have nothing to lose. You and your husband might be better to look for a better place to homestead.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:47 AM
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Interesting concept Ellen. But it sounds impractical. The fact you have problems with break ins indicate a bad area. Where I live now I leave my stuff unlocked and unsecured and do not have problems. Previous places I lived that was not the case. I prefer when I do not need to worry that my truck keys are frequently left in the ignition and I do not fear vandalism when I take a trip someplace.

Based on your description the property and of what you are looking for in terms of additional people, I could see you attracting only the wrong sort. People with nothing have nothing to lose. You and your husband might be better to look for a better place to homestead.
The neighborhood backing mine in town gets hit all the time because it is completely seasonal. It is an opportunistic problem. No one is home and there are signs up that it's open seasonally between May-October. The rest of the time it's open just for people who want to have easy access for break ins without interference.

The logic is unfounded. It's like saying more laws for the law abiding citizens will keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I do not believe this. The area is vacant. With this logic, a good area would be Chicago. No, our area is good. People put homes out there and are never there to keep things secure. That happens in town and out of town. Some burglars don't mind breaking in when you're home. Others like the conveniene of 100% assurance that no one is home and no one will be back until May.

Some people who have nothing and nothing to lose are just looking for a place to be. We have housed homeless vets there in the past. When someone is there, there is no problem. The problem occurs who we leave it unattended for 5 months. I honestly feel, when we move out there to live full time that will solve the problem. Having other people there provides extra coverage when we have to be gone or want to go on vacation.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:49 PM
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:31 PM
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I understand what you are wanting and/or planning. Whether you call it a commune or a community, a group of like minded people working together and watching each others' backs.
I wish you luck, and I don't mean that facetiously.

Getting there is the problem. Although I'm new here I'm going to suggest doing something that is probably not suggested here much. Talk to a lawyer. One who specializes in real estate and/or rental issues. You want to protect your rights and property, yet still reassure people you won't evict them once they help you build. Granted, you want as few outside people knowing about this as possible, but this ain't gonna be your standard lease. And until TSHTF you may want some legal recourse if someone turns out to be a problem.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:09 PM
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I understand what you are wanting and/or planning. Whether you call it a commune or a community, a group of like minded people working together and watching each others' backs.
I wish you luck, and I don't mean that facetiously.

Getting there is the problem. Although I'm new here I'm going to suggest doing something that is probably not suggested here much. Talk to a lawyer. One who specializes in real estate and/or rental issues. You want to protect your rights and property, yet still reassure people you won't evict them once they help you build. Granted, you want as few outside people knowing about this as possible, but this ain't gonna be your standard lease. And until TSHTF you may want some legal recourse if someone turns out to be a problem.

We will have a lease for sure. This will protect all parties. We are no longer looking for apprentices though, just tenants who would like to live out there with us. We need enough people out there to watch each others back. Tenants would have full use of several acres or shared gardens, however they want to do things. There are a lot of options. We would even help someone build something, travel trailers, RVs etc.

Our place is set to be finished soon, well, a couple of months. We want the property to appear as though there is always someone there or several people coming and going. It is open for opportunist burglars at the moment because there is no confrontation risk.

We are still looking for a few more people/families. Thanks for your advice and concern. It is appreciated.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:24 AM
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Pictures of your property might help.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:56 AM
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Pictures of your property might help.
I have tried attaching photos several times and there is always a UPLOAD FAILURE. I would be glad to email pictures.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:18 AM
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Hmm, I tried to suggest a similar arrangement with my 40 plus acres in WV but no one seemed particularly interested...not sure why the interest in AZ over WV? If TSHTF I think southern WV would be a better BOL, no offense meant to Ellen.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:18 AM
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Hmm, I tried to suggest a similar arrangement with my 40 plus acres in WV but no one seemed particularly interested...not sure why the interest in AZ over WV? If TSHTF I think southern WV would be a better BOL, no offense meant to Ellen.
That's easy to answer. The white mountains of AZ are ranked the #2 best place in the world for survivability of a world catastrophe. Unless you plan on bugging our to South Africa, this is the next best place.

We are high on the mountains and surrounded by more mountains; volcanoes, actually. But they have been inactive for hundreds of years. The greatest underground water aquifer in the nation. Temperate climate, cool and arid. Very few natural occurrences of destructions; no earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, etc. some forest fires but that's natures way of preparing the land for vigorous growth. Rich in natural resources/metals abundance of lakes and streams and wildlife.

I will stop there. I don't want everyone on here begging to come. After all, we only have 50 acres. We are in the process of acquiring 90 more but, still, we only want a handful.

I'm not so easily offended!! But thanks for caring!
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:26 PM
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Without giving yourself away, can you give me some idea of where you located? I'd like to do some research climate, weather, minerials, water, wildlife, type of soil, ect...

OR

just pm me if its better for you
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:29 AM
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Without giving yourself away, can you give me some idea of where you located? I'd like to do some research climate, weather, minerials, water, wildlife, type of soil, ect...

OR

just pm me if its better for you
ZIP Code 85924. It is located near this town, not IN this town. Let me know if this doesn't help enough.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:24 AM
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Thanks for your quick reply and PMs. I will continue to post here for the benefit of other people that have similar questions or concerns. I know that some of my questions may sound negative but I'm not trying to have you give up your ideas. I'm looking for a long-term BOL so I want to be able to carefully assess your chances for long term success because they would directly impact my chances (and everyone's) for success.

I do agree with other posts from people who are concerned that your group may get filled by people that have no way of supporting themselves and are unreliable. I already live in a neighborhood where people don’t help me work my garden but they will try to sneak in to pick all the ripe fruits and berries and some of the vegetables. I finally had to put up security cameras and motion sensors to put a stop to that. I would suggest that anyone that anyone that you admit into your group should have a verifiable work history or financial proof that they can support themselves.

You mentioned that you have raised rabbits before. Do you know that 100% pure Angora rabbit wool sells for about the same price per ounce as silver? This could go a long way towards paying your operating expenses. When I was raising rabbits for meat and pets I had up to 100 in my operation so I know how to set up an effective small scale operation. Of course this is not free money! People have to be willing and able to invest in setting up the operation. People also have to be willing and able work to feed the rabbits and clean the cages. Angoras need to be brushed 2-3 times per week to collect the wool and sheared at least twice per year. I also know several other ways of raising money if people are willing to do the work.

I am still concerned about getting stuck with a bunch of people that think a BOL is a way to escape work and paying for anything. In reality it is the exact opposite. If you think living in a debris hut and foraging for all your food is a good long term BOL plan then you can try it without me. My plan is to have a garden, an orchard, livestock and a well built cabin. I already have my solar panels, batteries and a backup propane setup. I have enough cash to get started and pick up everything else I would need. I get regular medical checkups so I know there is nothing wrong with me that a little hard work wouldn’t fix. I have derived great satisfaction from having healthy livestock, a productive garden and a house that I have at least partially built myself and I want to go back to that lifestyle. I like the feeling of independence from being able produce my own heat and electricity.

I’m sick and tired of this G-D city and all the rules and regulations that do nothing more than to prevent me from the life I love. I don’t oppose them for wanting to eat disgustingly tasteless factory food and looking at their useless putting green lawns but I deeply resent them passing regulations to force me to live like they do. Anyone that feels like I do is more than welcome to work WITH me for a common goal.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:48 AM
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Maybe I am confused but it sounds like someone is looking for basically Free Labor..? So this land your talking about sounds like your typical $1000k an acre and you will "lease" some of YOUR land to your servant/appearance which means they do not own it.

-So how much labor do you want to lease a few acres of cheap land? Forever..? a year? 4000hrs?

-Why would someone want to invest in building on land they do not legally own? They could lose it all when they don't do your dishes one night when they could of just started on 5k worth of land the do legally own.

Construction labors get paid $10-$18 an hour why would someone do this work for the privilege of staying on underdeveloped cheap land ?
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:03 PM
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Thanks for your quick reply and PMs. I will continue to post here for the benefit of other people that have similar questions or concerns. I know that some of my questions may sound negative but I'm not trying to have you give up your ideas. I'm looking for a long-term BOL so I want to be able to carefully assess your chances for long term success because they would directly impact my chances (and everyone's) for success.

I do agree with other posts from people who are concerned that your group may get filled by people that have no way of supporting themselves and are unreliable. I already live in a neighborhood where people donít help me work my garden but they will try to sneak in to pick all the ripe fruits and berries and some of the vegetables. I finally had to put up security cameras and motion sensors to put a stop to that. I would suggest that anyone that anyone that you admit into your group should have a verifiable work history or financial proof that they can support themselves.

You mentioned that you have raised rabbits before. Do you know that 100% pure Angora rabbit wool sells for about the same price per ounce as silver? This could go a long way towards paying your operating expenses. When I was raising rabbits for meat and pets I had up to 100 in my operation so I know how to set up an effective small scale operation. Of course this is not free money! People have to be willing and able to invest in setting up the operation. People also have to be willing and able work to feed the rabbits and clean the cages. Angoras need to be brushed 2-3 times per week to collect the wool and sheared at least twice per year. I also know several other ways of raising money if people are willing to do the work.

I am still concerned about getting stuck with a bunch of people that think a BOL is a way to escape work and paying for anything. In reality it is the exact opposite. If you think living in a debris hut and foraging for all your food is a good long term BOL plan then you can try it without me. My plan is to have a garden, an orchard, livestock and a well built cabin. I already have my solar panels, batteries and a backup propane setup. I have enough cash to get started and pick up everything else I would need. I get regular medical checkups so I know there is nothing wrong with me that a little hard work wouldnít fix. I have derived great satisfaction from having healthy livestock, a productive garden and a house that I have at least partially built myself and I want to go back to that lifestyle. I like the feeling of independence from being able produce my own heat and electricity.

Iím sick and tired of this G-D city and all the rules and regulations that do nothing more than to prevent me from the life I love. I donít oppose them for wanting to eat disgustingly tasteless factory food and looking at their useless putting green lawns but I deeply resent them passing regulations to force me to live like they do. Anyone that feels like I do is more than welcome to work WITH me for a common goal.
I do appreciate you nit-picking! We definitely don't want to overlook anything and constructive criticism is great! I try not to paint this as a pretty picture of living the easy life. We have considered 11 different parties. 10 have been turned down for various reasons ranging from totally absurd to folks wanting welfare and to live of my preps.

Our rabbits are all for meat and research, which likely brings in more money without brushing a few times per week. I would consider angoras though. We are working up to a 400-doe rabbitry and I don't think we can change our focus on breeds at the moment. I like the idea of angora for personal use if nothing else.

Thanks so much for the thought you out into this. It is thought-provoking.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:21 PM
Ellen Ellen is offline
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Maybe I am confused but it sounds like someone is looking for basically Free Labor..? So this land your talking about sounds like your typical $1000k an acre and you will "lease" some of YOUR land to your servant/appearance which means they do not own it.

-So how much labor do you want to lease a few acres of cheap land? Forever..? a year? 4000hrs?

-Why would someone want to invest in building on land they do not legally own? They could lose it all when they don't do your dishes one night when they could of just started on 5k worth of land the do legally own.

Construction labors get paid $10-$18 an hour why would someone do this work for the privilege of staying on underdeveloped cheap land ?

Yes, we want slaves and free labor, nothing else. That's what apprentices are, just pure slaves. If you don't want to be a slave, please don't beg to come. You have to commit to 4000 hours per year for life. If you're not willing to bow down to us and slave for 24-48 hours straight please don't ask to come here. We only want to have slaves. We are slave-drivers.

Sheesh people! READ, WE ARE DONE WITH BUILDING. YOU MISSED OUT ON THE FREE EDUCATION WHICH INCLUDED ROOM AND BOARD.

4000 hours?! I'm thinking of 8 hours per month IF a person can't afford to pay their rent. READ!! Some people cannot afford BOL. Am I right? Some people are ready to move out of the rat race and can't afford it. If they can't afford their own, then why does it matter if they will never own the land under them out here for a mere few hours of labor per month? Yeah, if they live long enough I may demand 4000+ hours out of them. The thing is, if they have to be away, we are so happy to tend their livestock, garden, etc for them while they are away....for free!

If you do about 2 minutes of research, you will find people who WANT to learn a trade (apprenticeship) without paying tuition. I have done it twice in my life. Disney World offers an apprenticeship. You have to pay to live there, they teach you a trade and force you to work 40-60 hours per week without pay in return for the knowledge. IT's CALLED APPRENTICESHIP. Hard workers may be able to appreciate free training. On the job training is great. Free room and board during this time would perhaps constitute payment. It's called BARTER, look it up. There MIGHT be a thread on this forum if you look really, really hard.

YOU WILL NOT OWN OUR LAND. I DO NOT OWN THE LAND I HAVE RENTED FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS. NO, YOU WILL NOT BE A SLAVE, AS I HAVE REITERATED ON THIS THREAD MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES. IF YOU BEG US, WE WILL STILL NOT LET YOU BE A SLAVE. PLEASE DO NOT ASK TO BE A SLAVE.

We have had a homeless vet living out on our place before. He lived there for about a year. He paid nothing. He did keep watch of our structures out there and no one bothered anything during that time. He has since moved. The only reason we are charging anything is because it satisfies the legal requirement of a lease which protects EVERYONE. In AZ, leases seem to protect the leasee more than the person leasing out their property.

Keep the slavery idiocracy coming. It has been address here in several posts. We are making it very clear what we want. If it's not for you move on. If you're looking to be owned as a slave, so sorry, we are not buying slaves at the moment.

If you are looking for BOL and you can only afford $60-$70 per month and don't mind never owning the land you live on, this may be for you. After a trial we can discuss possibilities of 50-100 year leases to protect where you live. We are fair, we are not welfare. Living off grid is challenging in ways that don't become real until you try it. There is 50 acres. No one will be constrained to a single acre. Many acres can be share-cropped (that means WORK that is shared to produce a crop). I am not paying wages for you to grow your garden. If we work together and share the labor and make a profit, we will share the profit 50/50.

I'm not sure who can own any land for so little per month, but occasionally if a person can't afford it we can work out some labor to cover the cost. This shall not be construed as slavery. We want a pleasant place that a person would want to stay. We need people who will be out there for a long, long, long time. People we can build a trusting relationship with. People who will be our BOL stewards. That's what we want. There is no free lunch.

Why would someone do this? Because we can afford the treasure and safety of BOL and someone else may not be able to unless it is made available to them in affordable terms.

Why would someone want to invest in something that they will never own? People do this all the time. It's called rent. It's called MORTGAGE. It's called property taxes. Who doesn't do this?

I don't remember anything about someone doing my dishes mentioned anywhere. I think I have stressed that people need to do their own things. If there is something beneficial we can do together then that might be a possibility.

Yes, lodgepole, you are confused. Admitting your problem is the first step towards recovery. Good luck!
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:31 PM
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Call it what you like but when a person lives on someones property and works(for money or free) for them they are living IN someones Kingdom. Who's law? The King or Queen. Who is slave to the law? The servant, serf, etc. Doesn't sound very fun or free to me. At least with a 9-5 job you can leave at the end of the day and have your own life.

I guess if you can "only afford $60-$70 per month" and you have no motivation to make your own life or you are getting kicked out of a cult this could be for you.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:43 PM
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ap∑pren∑tice
/əˈprentis/
Noun
A person who is learning a trade from a skilled employer, having agreed to work for a fixed period at low wages or in trade for learning a skill.
Verb
Employ (someone) as an apprentice.
Synonyms
noun. learner - novice - prentice - disciple - pupil - tiro
verb.



slave
/slāv/
Noun
A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
Verb
Work excessively hard: "slaving away for all those years".
Synonyms
noun. thrall - helot - bondslave - serf - bondservant - bondman
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:46 PM
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Call it what you like but when a person lives on someones property and works(for money or free) for them they are living IN someones Kingdom. Who's law? The King or Queen. Who is slave to the law? The servant, serf, etc. Doesn't sound very fun or free to me. At least with a 9-5 job you can leave at the end of the day and have your own life.

I guess if you can "only afford $60-$70 per month" and you have no motivation to make your own life or you are getting kicked out of a cult this could be for you.
If someone isn't planning on working then this is not for them. We will have real jobs. Right now there is someone in the White House who is the King. My [lack of] freedoms have been determined by the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto the US has been practicing since before I was born. This bol land gives me the illusion of freedom.

Who says bugging out is fun? Send me a thread on that. I'm excited to learn the fun parts of bugging out. Maybe the fun part is bugging out and not having a place to go?

I have no idea what you're talking about as far as a cult. You win, I'm stumped.

I don't know who is responsible for making my own life aside from myself. We are not making anyone's life for them. I don't know how you came to that.

What is a lease? It spells out what is expected of all parties. You are confused. I'm not sure how to explain things any better to you.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:49 PM
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Serf - An agricultural laborer bound under the feudal system to work on his lord's estate.

Raising rabbits is not very profitable. I seriously doubt you support your selves and property from it. So you bought some cheap land you want people to work for free to learn a unprofitable trade/hobby? Not very impressive.
And is cleaning out rabbit pens a skill to learn?

Why don't you try making a real business and hiring some workers for real money.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:57 PM
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Serf - An agricultural laborer bound under the feudal system to work on his lord's estate.

Raising rabbits is not very profitable. I seriously doubt you support your selves and property from it. So you bought some cheap land you want people to work for free to learn a unprofitable trade/hobby? Not very impressive.
And is cleaning out rabbit pens a skill to learn?

Why don't you try making a real business and hiring some workers for real money.

Serf? Someone who grows his own food? I'm a serf unto myself then. I'm not offering labor. PERIOD! The labor part is over. We aren't going to pay anyone to grow their own food either. No food stamps here!

Selling rabbits for what we get is profitable; research is the key. I don't know what you think about what our actual business is, and I don't care. Rabbits are our only business. No one will be allowed in our rabbit pens.

We are not hiring anyone for money. This is not a job offer. Back to your confusion, this is an offer of a place to have affordable BOL. I'm not sure at all what you're getting at. I will stop confusing you further.

Who are YOU hiring? Why would we hire someone to come a live where we are charging rent? My landlords have never given me a job. Ever!! I have to work and pay my rent. I'm not sure which world you're living in. I can see that your confusion is more severe than what you might think. Please get some help with that!
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