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Old 08-15-2019, 06:32 AM
libertyforall libertyforall is offline
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Default Actual gun battles - how much ammo used?



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I was watching the situation in Philadelphia last night and the news commentators were saying the bad actor had shot a huge amount of ammo (100 rounds) and I thought this sounded incredulous that some naive people believe that is a lot. The average person doesn’t have any idea how much a large cache of ammo is defined as. But this got me thinking about how much I should be storing up. I store only for what I believe I will need to defend my position. My range ammo and my plinking ammo I just buy and use and not store up. I’m guessing if you are in a gun battle whereby someone or a group of people are attempting to takeover your position.....if you shoot up about 1,000 rounds, you’ve got yourself in a hell of a firefight. Then I have to ask myself what are the actual chances of that taking place. I know you don’t prep so much for what is going on as much as you prep for what MAY happen. I guess I need to accurately come up with what I feel will get me through SHTF so I have enough resources to purchase prep food and all other necessary items. It’s easy to spend huge amounts on ammo and guns.....you have to save a little money back for the beans and bandaids. I’ve got about 16k of .223 and I feel terribly under-supplied.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:01 AM
lew.45 lew.45 is offline
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I stock up on ammo to be prepared in case that ammo is no longer available for sale. I want to be able to still shoot.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:29 AM
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FIRST- THE AMOUNT of ammo required is dependent upon the skill of the shooter.

IF you follow the school of MidEast shooting style, where you just hold the gun out from behind cover and pull the trigger.. then you will need LOTS!!!!!!!!!!

If you follow strictly the schools of sniper training... then not so much.

IT also depends on what you think you will be confronted with as an opponent. If they number in 2-5, it is different than facing down hundreds...

SO

potentially you may never have enough ammo no matter how much you store.
It is just whatever you have as a threat assessment and what makes you comfortable.
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:15 PM
Herd Sniper Herd Sniper is offline
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A well trained rifleman can dominate a fighting zone with a minimum of fired shots using accuracy, patience and good tactics to his advantage. A great example is how snipers stop and hold whole convoys from advancing by using good tactics and good accuracy to their advantage. So, really, it's not how many rounds that you have or shoot. It's how many rounds that you can accurately deliver on target.

That's why I urge people to consider using some kind of scope on their rifles. Not to turn their rifles into sniper rifles but to enhance their overall accuracy by using a simple 4X or four power scope to their advantage. If you mount a 4X scope on your rifle and properly zero the scope to your rifle, ammo and your eyesight you can end up being the bad boy on the block, and the surrounding blocks, for the most part. Think about it.

A guy with a properly zeroed scope on his rifle is more of a threat to a bad guy than the guy who has all sorts of ammo and can't hit anything at all. Even if that shooter has 10,000 rounds to waste.
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:45 PM
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I WAS a cop in a pretty violent and nasty place where the PO-PO had lots of "interesting" interaction with the inhabitants of certain areas of urban living. In all my years there I saw/investigated/partook in probably over 100 police involved shootings. In all those interactions, no one ever had to reload. In fact no one ever even emptied their gun. IT was all pretty much up close, personal and dirty... and shotguns were used when available.

Wait...

there was one incident in an adjoining jurisdiction that shows the pressure of shootings.
One of the local state cops had a guy in a stolen car he stopped. The trooper was on the state pistol team. At the time the state carried revolvers. At a range of about 20 feet, cop and BG opened up on each other.. and missed. They emptied their guns. BG takes to flee on foot, cop dumps empties drops a couple more rounds into the gun, takes his bullseye shooting stance and hits the guy at about 100 feet dropping him. He never lived that one down.

SO
by our PD experience, not a lot was needed other than what was carried in the gun.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:28 AM
whirlibird whirlibird is offline
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First: The quantity of ammunition needed will depend upon the situation not my ability. Two bad guys in an alley vs. the entire nation of islam on the 'El' in Chicago.

Most civilian gunfights last until someone runs out of ammo. There are exceptions both high and low, but generally empty means its over, now try and reload.

Choose your weapons accordingly. High chance of actually using the gun and multiple bad guys, volume is important. Low chance and the need to conceal and not be seen? That 33 round mag may just stand out a bit.
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:04 AM
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Situation will dictate. I've gone through 200-300 rounds in extended training fights, either "attacking" or breaking contact. Of course, that's with a specific mission or battle drill with a squad and often with a crew served weapon taking on similar sized forces. Some here, have been in firefights using 300+rounds, which is a lot, but once you start using suppressive fire for maneuvering elements or a larger attacking force, more is better, but many aren't focused on disciplined marksmanship.

100 rounds isn't that much for firefight, but in competent hands, that should be more than enough to end a fight outside of open combat or at least enough to break contact if out-gunned. In an extended firefight scenario, you can go through a lot of ammo easily without fire-discipline.

ROCK6
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:01 AM
LuniticFringeInc LuniticFringeInc is offline
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In a mugging or robbery, car jacking, home invasion a magazine or two will likely get you through or end with you dead. In such situations the fight is generally measured in seconds. In an ambush or CQB clearing a building like in Iraq or Afghanistan, you can easily burn through 200-300 plus rounds if you live long enough! In that situation the fight may last several minutes, possibly hours if you cant break contact right away.

In a SHTF situation, while we will likely avoid confrontations to the extent possible, sometimes the choice is not yours to make. As such you dont get the option of determining the circumstances/terms of the engagement. When the confrontation is up close and personal and your getting shot at its very unlikely your going to be taking well aimed shots like you would at a Camp Perry match, your going to most likely be "instinctive" shooting. When that happens you might find yourself burning through a lot more ammo if you survive the encounter than you ever imagined, even when you are skilled at instinctive shooting. I know it opened my eyes in a major kinda way and changed the way I though from there after.

Here are a example of what I am talking about with incidents that happened right here in America!


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Old 08-16-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
A well trained rifleman can dominate a fighting zone with a minimum of fired shots using accuracy, patience and good tactics to his advantage. A great example is how snipers stop and hold whole convoys from advancing by using good tactics and good accuracy to their advantage. So, really, it's not how many rounds that you have or shoot. It's how many rounds that you can accurately deliver on target.

That's why I urge people to consider using some kind of scope on their rifles. Not to turn their rifles into sniper rifles but to enhance their overall accuracy by using a simple 4X or four power scope to their advantage. If you mount a 4X scope on your rifle and properly zero the scope to your rifle, ammo and your eyesight you can end up being the bad boy on the block, and the surrounding blocks, for the most part. Think about it.

A guy with a properly zeroed scope on his rifle is more of a threat to a bad guy than the guy who has all sorts of ammo and can't hit anything at all. Even if that shooter has 10,000 rounds to waste.
I feel like I end up quoting and agreeing with you a lot.

Not a sniper myself, but was a medic attached to some for a while. The situation will dictate, but it's possible to stop up a platoon size element with a couple great shots and book it back to an FFP and observe. Launch a 3rd round to pause them enough for your escape and you've sent 30 dudes into disarray for 3 deer hunting rounds. Not knowing where a shooter is gets folks spooked fast.

And yeah, fire superiority via round attrition is an infantry concept not readily afforded to small dismount patrols with carbines. It burns too much resource. As Jeff Cooper teaches: the goal of shooting is to hit what you're shooting at.

It was cool to see the pros do their stuff. Great learning experience.

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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Situation will dictate. I've gone through 200-300 rounds in extended training fights, either "attacking" or breaking contact. Of course, that's with a specific mission or battle drill with a squad and often with a crew served weapon taking on similar sized forces. Some here, have been in firefights using 300+rounds, which is a lot, but once you start using suppressive fire for maneuvering elements or a larger attacking force, more is better, but many aren't focused on disciplined marksmanship.

100 rounds isn't that much for firefight, but in competent hands, that should be more than enough to end a fight outside of open combat or at least enough to break contact if out-gunned. In an extended firefight scenario, you can go through a lot of ammo easily without fire-discipline.

ROCK6
I feel like I'm always quoting and agreeing with you, too!

If a fireteam really has their rhythm down and is practiced at keeping on line, they can duck heads for a solid couple minutes without even draining the first magazine of each shooter.

I know that even a single round in my direction once every 3-5 seconds would keep me pretty planted until a better plan or opportunity came up.

A good team would be maneuvering that whole time, too.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:13 PM
NAC/NSW/CAC NAC/NSW/CAC is offline
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libertyforall, any cache is only worth what you can carry unless you have determined that you shall expire atop a mound of shells. So perhaps common Combat Loads would be a starting point for every cache & firearm.

Now Scout Snipers facing a (88) Infantry Company performing Bounding Overwatch, they won't go through 100 rounds.

Yet the average EKIA with fully automatic (5.56) firearms was 35 rounds per EKIA.

So to brace 3 unfriendlies you either need less than 6 rounds if you are a Scout Sniper, or at least 105 rounds if your a common conscript armed with a fully automatic (5.56) rifle.

JMHO.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:23 PM
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When I was stationed in Sicily guarding ground launched cruise missiles, I think we carried about 240 5.56 rounds.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:12 AM
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Military claims tens of thousands used per enemy killed.

I plan to use a lot less...but I'm not going to delude myself with 'one shot, one kill' Real world stats show something like a 90% miss rate in police shootings.
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:42 AM
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or at least 105 rounds if your a common conscript armed with a fully automatic (5.56) rifle.
JMHO.
I've discussed hit probabilities before, and while I would hope I could improve my hit probability much higher than 3 per 105 rounds, it does highlight that those who think one-shot, one-kill in a gun fight (not sniping from a hide) are deluding themselves.

In fact, if you're engaging multiple threats and you've ripped through a 30 round magazine with only one "hit", that's a sign you need to break contact as you won't have enough ammo for an extended fight, your lost any tactical advantage, you're more likely to get pinned down, and your decision making process sucks.

If threat engagements are imminent, your best strategy is hit and run. Better results using much less ammo.

If you're walking into an ambush or attacked, without any intel of the threat, you are far better off breaking contact and tactically withdrawing if at all possible.

The ammo you can carry on your back is finite. Planned firefights need a resupply point. While I don't think many will live through a single firefight against a superior force with even the slightest tactical advantage, you definitely won't be doing many firefights with a single combat load.

Avoid firefights. Engage first if you have the tactical advantage (and know it's an viable threat). Hit and run tactics will have a higher hit probability and life expectancy. If lacking the tactical advantage and no intel on the threat...break contact; save ammo and your skin.

ROCK6
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Old 08-17-2019, 07:03 AM
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THIS IS ALWAYS a viable option when engaged in small unit situations when the outcome is in doubt and you are on the wrong end of the tactical situation.

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Old 08-17-2019, 07:48 AM
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I agree that we should be shooting with skill and down range accuracy in shtf. But having a lot of ammo also is a good idea since when you run out it is goon. Most "preppers" will run out of ammo and food way too soon.
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Old 08-17-2019, 01:40 PM
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Military rounds per EKIA is good data to know, but the prospective SHTF patrol won't operate the same. Escape and Evasion will be the name of the game. Counting every round a SAW gunner threw into a window to keep a dude planted isn't relevant stuff to someone walking the boundaries of their living space.

Mission dictates gear. Nail down your mission, first. The rest generally will sort itself out.
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:00 PM
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Military rounds per EKIA is good data to know, but the prospective SHTF patrol won't operate the same. Espace and Evasion will be the name of the game. Counting every round a SAW gunner threw into a window to keep a dude planted isn't relevant stuff to someone walking the boundaries of their living space.

Mission dictates gear. Nail down your mission, first. The rest generally will sort itself out.
Good point not something to overlook. Most of us will be hunkering down, E&E, simply patrolling the property and avoiding engagements if possible. This is also the reason my bug-home ammo for my AR pistol is only about 90 rounds...fast, light, discreet.

I think as individuals, round-counts matter, hit probability is of higher importance than suppressive fire, and even simply aspects of magazine retention when reloading. Of course if typical firefights result in low-hit probabilities, that would make them a high-priority on my list of things to avoid

ROCK6
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:25 PM
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I just want to say from my experience. Two things I lighten my load of stuff I carried so that I could carry extra ammo and already load mags. I made sure I had 20-25 with 18 rounds with me. Plus a few hundred more to reload not wanting to depend on relief drop.

One night we sprung an Ambush and turned out it was a Battlalon size instead of a company or so. Ended upspringing the ambush and after it was determined we were outmanned. We set claymores with trips and turn tail and ran for about two clicks or more.

You never know how much ammo you will need in any given firefight. But use conservatively and hopefully you will have enough to survie to see another day.
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:46 PM
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In actual military gun battles a crap ton,I personally carried minimum of a dozen 30 round mags and 2 or 3, 20 round boxes for serious aw crap,never did get into the extra boxes but it was nice knowing I had them a time or two,in a civilian engagement I'm sorry but if your in that kind of firefight without support of fully auto belt fed,ect. your screwed!!
Like Nomad mentioned in different thread, we no longer move and sleep with squad to plt sized elements,if you want to survive you gotta go to guerilla tactics,stay hid shoot and scoot move light and fast! I personally plan to stay out of any shooting engagements if at all possible so 50-100 rounds is plenty,been there done that not sorry but sure the hell dont want to do it again,with bad back,bad shoulders,and shredded knees..
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
I've discussed hit probabilities before, and while I would hope I could improve my hit probability much higher than 3 per 105 rounds, it does highlight that those who think one-shot, one-kill in a gun fight (not sniping from a hide) are deluding themselves.

If threat engagements are imminent, your best strategy is hit and run.

Avoid firefights. Engage first if you have the tactical advantage (and know it's an viable threat). Hit and run tactics will have a higher hit probability and life expectancy. If lacking the tactical advantage and no intel on the threat...break contact; save ammo and your skin.

ROCK6
It sounds like you don't consider it a "Gunfight" if only one round is expended from concealment. (So BAMBI ain't got a fair chance from my treestand?) Taking incoming fire just so I can call it a "GUNFIGHT" isn't in my tactical planning guide.
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