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Old 10-03-2017, 09:16 AM
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(AS A WROL/APOC SCENARIO)
(to acquire before-hand tho!)

I decided to make a new thread on BOL observation and defensible pillboxes around the wooded BOL property.
Most likely 5 or 6.
BOL Property owners are family, have some preps, not sheeple.
30 acres. rectangular. House in middle of one-half. ATV paths throughout.
They are open to ways of protecting their place.

This thread is the alternative outcome of the initial thread concerning guard/watch towers.
---In general, the majority of advise and wisdom from the community conveyed that building 5-6 towers (to my dimensions) around the perimeter was not a good idea. Too big, too excessive.

Alternatively I want something that BOL people can utilize that is elevated to above the average "under brush" heights.

(this in accordance with surrounding topography of BOL - generally lower.)
(It is pretty well established at BOL, is that an elevated
position is needed to survey "far out".)

TREE STAND

This "guard" would be in camouflage or ghillie.
This will be the person that will be observing/scanning the surrounding areas.

(NVGs and thermals are already considered for acquisition in near-future)
(Along with scoped rifle.)
(NVG/thermals if one or two is owned at the time, they are rotated between "guards' by a "patrolman". Stealthily, of course.


If the Guard is spotted/realizes who he sees is shooting at him, he ought to have a "fallback" .
the Guard may descend to the ground and utilize a protected position, to fight back and/ or defend, wait on backup to arrive. Or high tail it out of there. depends on what is happening.

(Communications are being developed)


PILLBOX/gunner bunker

Basically a fallback position if guards get shot at up in the trees.
There might be some short range supplies/ammo/food within it.
- or close by...
Fortified of course.

So, I would like to know what you guys and gals think.
Quick way to get to ground?
besides freakin ladders! Fastrope? rappelling might be too cumbersome.
(I do rappelling quite a bit!)

Cheap and easy materials we can get for pillbox/bunkers.
Any other ideas are welcome.

We at BOL have plans on "natural barriers" along the perimeter, but that's another thread...
Tripwires/alarms and "booby traps"(if truly wrol) are considered too.

Unlike the "tower" thread, which kind of fell apart-
(mostly due to perverse/childish comments and phrases, which we can do without), although, had great advise and considerations.

This thread here rose like a Phoenix, from the flaming ashes of...well, towers..lol,

Anyway, I hope this thread remains mature and insightful.

Last edited by davej1138; 10-03-2017 at 09:42 AM.. Reason: adding
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:42 AM
Gulcher Gulcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davej1138 View Post
(AS A WROL/APOC SCENARIO)
(to acquire before-hand tho!)

I decided to make a new thread on BOL observation and defensible pillboxes around the wooded BOL property. Most likely 5 or 6.
30 acres. rectangular. House in middle of one-half. ATV paths throughout.

This thread is the alternative outcome of the initial thread concerning guard/watch towers.
---In general, the majority of advise and wisdom from the community conveyed that building 5-6 towers (to my dimensions) around the perimeter was not a good idea. Too big, too excessive.

Alternatively I want something that BOL people can utilize that is elevated to above the average "under brush" heights.

(this in accordance with surrounding topography of BOL - generally lower.)
(It is pretty well established at BOL, is that an elevated
position is needed to survey "far out".)

TREE STAND

This "guard" would be in camouflage or ghillie.
This will be the person that will be observing/scanning the surrounding areas.

(NVGs and thermals are already considered for acquisition in near-future)
(Along with scoped rifle.)
(NVG/thermals if one or two is owned at the time, they are rotated between "guards' by a "patrolman". Stealthily, of course.


If the Guard is spotted/realizes who he sees is shooting at him, he ought to have a "fallback" .
the Guard may descend to the ground and utilize a protected position, to fight back and/ or defend, wait on backup to arrive. Or high tail it out of there. depends on what is happening.

(Communications are being developed)


PILLBOX/gunner bunker

Basically a fallback position if guards get shot at up in the trees.
There might be some short range supplies/ammo/food within it.
- or close by...
Fortified of course.

So, I would like to know what you guys and gals think.
Quick way to get to ground?
besides freakin ladders! Fastrope? rappelling might be too cumbersome.
(I do rappelling quite a bit!)

Cheap and easy materials we can get for pillbox/bunkers.
Any other ideas are welcome.

We at BOL have plans on "natural barriers" along the perimeter, but that's another thread...
Tripwires/alarms and "booby traps"(if truly wrol) are considered too.

Unlike the "tower" thread, which kind of fell apart-
(mostly due to perverse/childish comments and phrases, which we can do without), although, had great advise and considerations.

This thread here rose like a Phoenix, from the flaming ashes of...well, towers..lol,

Anyway, I hope this thread remains mature and insightful.
Hey as you will find lots of crusty curmudgeon's on here, and some will snipe you. Take your ideas apart. But in my humble opinion, if you already have high ground and surrounded by open fields, dig in and put in OP that are in the ground and camo'd with a cover of dirt etc and some natural vegetation. If placed in right places they can also become your "Pill Box". Anyway just my POV but I think anything obvious will become a target. Look at fields of fire. Concealment and ckokepoints and directing your adversaries into the path you want to control. Beware anyplace without a back door and escape avenue.
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:55 AM
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Hey as you will find lots of crusty curmudgeon's on here, and some will snipe you. Take your ideas apart. But in my humble opinion, if you already have high ground and surrounded by open fields, dig in and put in OP that are in the ground and camo'd with a cover of dirt etc and some natural vegetation. If placed in right places they can also become your "Pill Box". Anyway just my POV but I think anything obvious will become a target. Look at fields of fire. Concealment and ckokepoints and directing your adversaries into the path you want to control. Beware anyplace without a back door and escape avenue.
OP?

It is already estimated that elevated positions would be beneficial there, especially for longer-range surveying. Oh, and one of the BOL residents does hunt out there.
Yes, I realize going smaller scale is better than my original tower idea, thanks to the majority of the replies given in the other thread. Snipers will get 'em. Easy target type deal.

Also in my other thread, I ask about 'natural barriers' which should have gaps for wildlife to pass through (easier anyway)
(and/ or an easier way for intruders to get through.)

Thank you
This should also function as "chokepoints."
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Gulcher View Post
Hey as you will find lots of crusty curmudgeon's on here, and some will snipe you. Take your ideas apart. But in my humble opinion, if you already have high ground and surrounded by open fields, dig in and put in OP that are in the ground and camo'd with a cover of dirt etc and some natural vegetation. If placed in right places they can also become your "Pill Box". Anyway just my POV but I think anything obvious will become a target. Look at fields of fire. Concealment and ckokepoints and directing your adversaries into the path you want to control. Beware anyplace without a back door and escape avenue.
OP?

It is already estimated that elevated positions would be beneficial there, especially for longer-range surveying. Oh, and one of the BOL residents does hunt out there.
Yes, I realize going smaller scale is better than my original tower idea, thanks to the majority of the replies given in the other thread. Snipers will get 'em. Easy target type deal.

Also in my other thread, I ask about 'natural barriers' which should have gaps for wildlife to pass through (easier anyway)
(and/ or an easier way for intruders to get through.)

This should also function as "chokepoints."

Thanks
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:01 AM
Gulcher Gulcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davej1138 View Post
OP?

It is already estimated that elevated positions would be beneficial there, especially for longer-range surveying. Oh, and one of the BOL residents does hunt out there.
Yes, I realize going smaller scale is better than my original tower idea, thanks to the majority of the replies given in the other thread. Snipers will get 'em. Easy target type deal.

Also in my other thread, I ask about 'natural barriers' which should have gaps for wildlife to pass through (easier anyway)
(and/ or an easier way for intruders to get through.)

This should also function as "chokepoints."

Thanks
OP or Observation Post. Some are simple some are elaborate with roofs, grenade trenchs, etc
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:03 AM
богдан богдан is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davej1138 View Post
(AS A WROL/APOC SCENARIO)
(to acquire before-hand tho!)

I decided to make a new thread on BOL observation and defensible pillboxes around the wooded BOL property.
Most likely 5 or 6.
BOL Property owners are family, have some preps, not sheeple.
30 acres. rectangular. House in middle of one-half. ATV paths throughout.
They are open to ways of protecting their place.

This thread is the alternative outcome of the initial thread concerning guard/watch towers.
---In general, the majority of advise and wisdom from the community conveyed that building 5-6 towers (to my dimensions) around the perimeter was not a good idea. Too big, too excessive.

Alternatively I want something that BOL people can utilize that is elevated to above the average "under brush" heights.

(this in accordance with surrounding topography of BOL - generally lower.)
(It is pretty well established at BOL, is that an elevated
position is needed to survey "far out".)

TREE STAND

This "guard" would be in camouflage or ghillie.
This will be the person that will be observing/scanning the surrounding areas.

(NVGs and thermals are already considered for acquisition in near-future)
(Along with scoped rifle.)
(NVG/thermals if one or two is owned at the time, they are rotated between "guards' by a "patrolman". Stealthily, of course.


If the Guard is spotted/realizes who he sees is shooting at him, he ought to have a "fallback" .
the Guard may descend to the ground and utilize a protected position, to fight back and/ or defend, wait on backup to arrive. Or high tail it out of there. depends on what is happening.

(Communications are being developed)


PILLBOX/gunner bunker

Basically a fallback position if guards get shot at up in the trees.
There might be some short range supplies/ammo/food within it.
- or close by...
Fortified of course.

So, I would like to know what you guys and gals think.
Quick way to get to ground?
besides freakin ladders! Fastrope? rappelling might be too cumbersome.
(I do rappelling quite a bit!)

Cheap and easy materials we can get for pillbox/bunkers.
Any other ideas are welcome.

We at BOL have plans on "natural barriers" along the perimeter, but that's another thread...
Tripwires/alarms and "booby traps"(if truly wrol) are considered too.

Unlike the "tower" thread, which kind of fell apart-
(mostly due to perverse/childish comments and phrases, which we can do without), although, had great advise and considerations.

This thread here rose like a Phoenix, from the flaming ashes of...well, towers..lol,

Anyway, I hope this thread remains mature and insightful.
my advice on pillboxes is still the same from the tower thread get some 4ft concrete pipe and drop them in vertically and pour a concrete roof with a half inch thick steel door on top like a small manhole or have steps behind it to allow quick ingress/egress.


I would put them relatively close to the main structure and with intersecting fields of fire.

the tree stand idea is still super labor intensive just like the towers,
and the japs in ww2 did this and while generally the hiding is pretty effective once your spotted the observers goose is cooked, be it tower, tree stand or just in the canopy with a teather to the tree. your observer would have to stay just that unless he wanted a 1 way trip to hell when hes spotted.


the pill boxes in a defensive perimeter near the main structure is sound because you can easily defend all of them from the main structure easily when the alarm is raised.

manning multiple outposts of whatever flavor will be extremely labor intensive even if you just have 5 guys on guard on 8hr shifts you will need 20 guys just for that purpose
any more than that your going to be really really wearing your guys out and your likely to have a sleeping sentry or a dead one.

I think you would be much better off putting cameras 20-30 feet up and have a solar panel feeding them up higher out of site. and monitor things remotely or as also stated before get a drone that can survey the whole property from 400ft up precicely and see where the deer are people and whatever else for a long way away some the ones ive used we were able to watch whats going on about 3 miles away in great detail, to build a s imilar setup would cost 6-8k. then instead of 20 folks on guard duty you could have several batteries charging at a set location and 4 guys on 8 hr shifts doing constant patrols at intervals say every 15 minutes send up for 5-10 mins. you couls see what is on your propery and well beyond
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davej1138 View Post
OP?

It is already estimated that elevated positions would be beneficial there, especially for longer-range surveying. Oh, and one of the BOL residents does hunt out there.
Yes, I realize going smaller scale is better than my original tower idea, thanks to the majority of the replies given in the other thread. Snipers will get 'em. Easy target type deal.

Also in my other thread, I ask about 'natural barriers' which should have gaps for wildlife to pass through (easier anyway)
(and/ or an easier way for intruders to get through.)

This should also function as "chokepoints."

Thanks
there a lot of things that would act as natural barriers the trick will be to make them look natural and not like you planted a wall of something.
I would suggest walking around the edges of fields inthat area see what prickly things are making a hedgerow most likely is a mix of wild roses and blackberries
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:17 AM
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Dave
I think your biggest problem are the woods, since it severely limits your observation.
Bogdan's post is pretty good.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:08 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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As has been brought up in this thread as well as the previous one...MANPOWER. How many people are you looking at having at your location?

It does no good to build things that you will never have the manpower to properly utilize. It is a fantasy to think you will be running from one position to another once an attack starts.

Just as your comment in the previous thread about swapping the pair of thermals around from post to post wasn't a viable plan. Since you never know from what direction the people would be coming from.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:36 AM
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Be aware that the local County Assessor's office will crawl all over your property about every 5 years. If your pill boxes are concrete, you might get away with calling the storage sheds, but they will charge you for them if they are permanent. They'll also know where they are unless you're VERY good at camouflage.

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Old 10-04-2017, 08:40 AM
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Be aware that the local County Assessor's office will crawl all over your property about every 5 years. If your pill boxes are concrete, you might get away with calling the storage sheds, but they will charge you for them if they are permanent. They'll also know where they are unless you're VERY good at camouflage.

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that's why you make em really small if you can seen some one man ones that were tiny
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:45 PM
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I listed some options to get down quickly from heights in the tower post. Let me know if you would like me to list them here, or explain them in more detail.

From what I am understanding, you want some basic hides, with at least some ability to use as a fighting position.

If that is the case, I would suggest a one of the fighting positions as explained in the US Army manual on field fortifications. I am on my tablet at the moment and do not have the file on it. I will attach it when I get a chance, if you do not find it online in the meantime.

Basically, it is a dug in position, with overhead protection that allows a firing slit toward the expected approach of someone, with enough spread to allow supporting fire for the positions on each side.

The back can be protected, with a way to quickly exit to a relatively safe path toward the rear, or it can be left open to allow a very quick exit.

They can be camouflaged extremely well, and if necessary, fields of fire cleared that are not too obvious, except to someone with military experience in that type of terrain. Since their is mostly just labor involved, with everything else natural materials, quite a few can be installed, and the appropriate ones used for the situation.

While I doubt that you would need to worry about grenades, having a grenade sump in each one is not a bad idea anyway, as it also acts as a sump for minor water accumulations.

If you have questions, feel free to ask.

Just my opinion.
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:48 PM
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advice on exiting defensive structures and withdrawing under fire are going to be determined by a lot of other factors, like the available cover, layout of the land, your manning, training aka what sort of support you have related to the distances or area involved.

What we have. 30 acres elevated slightly from surrounding land, semi-
wooded? Land around is generally clear views.

1. What area do the trees cover on the land? I am assuming you have a 'homestead' or cleared yard somewhere in the middle?

2.How many acres or yardage is clear?

3.What is the height and type of the wood? I mean are we talking light brush, dense thicket or tall pine forests?

4.What is the manning of the BOL establishment? This is a big one for suggestions on bugging your back guys out. Are we talking 10 folks or 50?

5. Does anyone have any military training at all, or are they just at 'not sheeple' level
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Old 10-04-2017, 02:41 PM
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The whole idea of advanced positions violates two of the most important military maxims:
1. Economy of force
2. Concentration of force.

The first point has been covered by others: there is not enough manpower to occupy those positions (except in VERY rare cases).
The second one must be obvious: even with the whole force occupying one location (the house), they would likely to be outnumbered, physically and tactically. So what is the point of having one man away from the family? He would either be disposed quickly, or, at best, pinned down and unable to retreat. In both cases there is no advantage of an advanced guard.
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Old 10-04-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wldwsel View Post
Be aware that the local County Assessor's office will crawl all over your property about every 5 years. If your pill boxes are concrete, you might get away with calling the storage sheds, but they will charge you for them if they are permanent. They'll also know where they are unless you're VERY good at camouflage.

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There are solutions to your (valid) concerns: the fighting positions (or parts thereof) may be prefabricated, stored and assembled at need.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:28 PM
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Well, the Field Fortifications .pdf I have is too large to attach. But here is a link to it:

https://archive.org/details/Field_Fo...course_EN_0065

Another reason to have the emplacements, if they are so designed for it, is as 360 degree fighting positions so the fight can be taken to anyone attacking from behind them.

Though people could be concealed in the positions beforehand, it would be much better to have tunnels (30" culvert) to each of them from the house. With pop up tops, camouflaged, they could be used as OP/LP and all around fighting positions.

Just my opinion.
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:13 AM
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advice on exiting defensive structures and withdrawing under fire are going to be determined by a lot of other factors, like the available cover, layout of the land, your manning, training aka what sort of support you have related to the distances or area involved.

What we have. 30 acres elevated slightly from surrounding land, semi-
wooded? Land around is generally clear views.

1. What area do the trees cover on the land? I am assuming you have a 'homestead' or cleared yard somewhere in the middle?

2.How many acres or yardage is clear?

3.What is the height and type of the wood? I mean are we talking light brush, dense thicket or tall pine forests?

4.What is the manning of the BOL establishment? This is a big one for suggestions on bugging your back guys out. Are we talking 10 folks or 50?

5. Does anyone have any military training at all, or are they just at 'not sheeple' level
Thickish underbrush especially in warmer seasons. Hard to see out of at ground levels. unless you're at the edge of tree line. At least elevated, you can pretty much survey the fields. (Still within the woods)

no pines, not really deciduous.

Property is pretty much all wooded except driveway lane (about 100yds open, from road, then 25yds driveway is wooded to house.)

It is cleared around the house I'd say a good 25 feet min.

Surrounding land may become "friendly" and possibly secured by the farmers.
The residents at BOL know them. The farmers don't live nearby though..
So It might become a 'community' effort once shtf. But I still want to defend the BOL primarily.

If all contacts make it to BOL in a timely fashion, there will be former military people there. But as of right now, just us civvies.

Last edited by davej1138; 10-05-2017 at 08:18 AM.. Reason: adding
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:31 AM
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Update/new info

Regarding the surrounding fields.

The local farmers are known to the BOL residents and are on friendly terms.
A 'standing around and talking' sort of way. lol.
A simple silo complex lies near the BOL, owned by the same farmers.

I myself do not know them.

From what I gather, these farmers will 'most likely' protect their crop if SHTF.
(depending on time of year I imagine.)

I imagine most farmers would.

As far as them doing their own patrols and defending the fields with firearms, I don't know.

If SHTF and/or WROL, I would be primarily defending BOL property. Unless the farmers are nearby, then create a "neighborhood watch" sort of thing.
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Old 10-05-2017, 04:23 PM
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Update/new info

Regarding the surrounding fields.

The local farmers are known to the BOL residents and are on friendly terms.
A 'standing around and talking' sort of way. lol.
A simple silo complex lies near the BOL, owned by the same farmers.

I myself do not know them.

From what I gather, these farmers will 'most likely' protect their crop if SHTF.
(depending on time of year I imagine.)

I imagine most farmers would.

As far as them doing their own patrols and defending the fields with firearms, I don't know.

If SHTF and/or WROL, I would be primarily defending BOL property. Unless the farmers are nearby, then create a "neighborhood watch" sort of thing.
you basically said nothing, there are other folks that farm your on good terms with but no idea if you can rely on them wich means you just went into a circle back to your group.

and even if they were doing their own patrols other than having some sort of running password or way to identify yourself at a distance when hunting or whatnot, how does that impact you protecting your little area?
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Old 10-06-2017, 03:14 AM
steve marshall steve marshall is offline
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Why do you need manned OP's? What are you protecting? As has been pointed out the man-hours needed and the expense of construction are unrealistic not to mention, but, a manned OP is putting a target on your back. For smallish investment even considering redundancy, you could do some sort of electronic surveillance. Consider too that 30 wooded acres in the middle of farmland?, is hardly an attractive destination.
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