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Old 03-10-2014, 08:04 PM
Astronomy Astronomy is offline
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but a Glock or M&P9, nope
Seriously, why is that? (Not trying to be argumentative). To my mind, the raison d'Ítre for a striker fired weapon (like a Glock) is it's ability to deliver an immediate fast shot. The speedy and simple engagement advantage of a DA revolver reincarnated into a semi-auto. Draw, Point, Shoot.

I've never carried a Glock un-chambered. I've been using various versions since 1985 and carried them CCW for years.

I don't carry empty chamber and I don't use guns with magazine disconnects. Magazines get ejected in grappling fights (BTDT) and I've never had a tussle at field interview distance that would have allowed me to chamber a round. By the time stuff started happening, my hands were usually full of the other guy. Only once able to break contact and get enough distance to draw (didn't actually have to shoot). Wouldn't want to be screwing around with also charging the gun at that time. Or running the risk of bobbling the load due to the gun failing to go completely into battery.

It's been my personal experience that bad events start out fast and then get worse even faster. I don't like starting out well behind the reaction power curve because I deliberately added in unnecessary steps to employing my weapon. My CCW is ready to go in the same way that my issue weapons were in combat. And for the same reason. Action often beats reaction... and you are usually reacting during an attack. I won't deliberately choose to be any slower than I have to be.

Oh well, I guess it's whatever makes the user most comfortable. Unloaded carry guns make me uncomfortable.
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Old 03-11-2014, 02:53 PM
heyrakes heyrakes is offline
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i can't add anything to this that will change any ones mind.

after 30 yrs of carry. i will say concealed delays you a couple of seconds and carrying condition 2 will cost you double that.
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Old 03-11-2014, 03:04 PM
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Who in there right mind would ccw with out a round in the chamber.

Do you think a guy carjacking you is gonna stop because you need both hands to rack the slide...
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Old 03-11-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jesse8931 View Post
Who in there right mind would ccw with out a round in the chamber.

Do you think a guy carjacking you is gonna stop because you need both hands to rack the slide...
You don't strictly speaking NEED both hands.... But I've ripped jeans before doing one handed reloading drills!


(crazy how most sites are sloped on the side you DON'T want them to be.)
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:51 PM
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You know I still can not wrap my head around this if you had your pistol iwb with no round in the chamber and I was ten feet in front of you I know for a fact I could draw my g19 and put 3 shots in you before you even begin to rack the slide...
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:53 AM
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Travel back up the history road for a minute. The Browning Hi-Power pistol was the no.1 handgun in Israel years ago. A lot of everyday common citizens carried it, not because they liked guns but they needed a tool for defense.

Being the bulk of the population are not gun enthusiasts (like USA) they had a problem with ND's. The solution they came up with was carrying with an empty chamber and racking the slide during the draw. Sounds cumbersome and time consuming but if you practice it you really don't lose much, if any time.

I first heard about this technique in the 80s. Instead of sneering because "it wasn't invented in the USA" I decided to try it and practice it and keep practicing it. It actually works. Like any skill...practice, practice, practice. I eventually quit using it because I didn't want muscle memory to conflict with my other handgun training.

I've never heard or seen the Israelis "pushing" their method as the best. The publicity on the method came from the US gun press. The Israelis had a problem and came up with a solution. Problem was solved. In the good ole USA we'd have the same problem if the bulk of our non-gun enthusiasts were carrying handguns every day.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Bill H View Post
Travel back up the history road for a minute. The Browning Hi-Power pistol was the no.1 handgun in Israel years ago. A lot of everyday common citizens carried it, not because they liked guns but they needed a tool for defense.

Being the bulk of the population are not gun enthusiasts (like USA) they had a problem with ND's. The solution they came up with was carrying with an empty chamber and racking the slide during the draw. Sounds cumbersome and time consuming but if you practice it you really don't lose much, if any time.

I first heard about this technique in the 80s. Instead of sneering because "it wasn't invented in the USA" I decided to try it and practice it and keep practicing it. It actually works. Like any skill...practice, practice, practice. I eventually quit using it because I didn't want muscle memory to conflict with my other handgun training.

I've never heard or seen the Israelis "pushing" their method as the best. The publicity on the method came from the US gun press. The Israelis had a problem and came up with a solution. Problem was solved. In the good ole USA we'd have the same problem if the bulk of our non-gun enthusiasts were carrying handguns every day.
The problem I have with it is it seems to be a half ass solution for a problem based on lack of training and the wrong equipment.

What if I have your hands full of groceries, a child, a beer (just kidding) or something else? I can draw and fire on target with one hand. Without using two hands I am not as fast or accurate with follow up shots but I can still fire one handed. I can't chamber a round one handed effectively.
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RossO View Post
The problem I have with it is it seems to be a half ass solution for a problem based on lack of training and the wrong equipment.

What if I have your hands full of groceries, a child, a beer (just kidding) or something else? I can draw and fire on target with one hand. Without using two hands I am not as fast or accurate with follow up shots but I can still fire one handed. I can't chamber a round one handed effectively.
I agree their method has drawbacks from our viewpoint. Every decision with weapons and tactics comes with pros and cons no matter where you live on the earth. Their problem with ND's among citizens must have been bad enough to warrant such a change in tactics. I can imagine how the conversations went...we have X number of ND's vs how many times does anyone need to draw and fire with one hand?
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Old 03-12-2014, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
Seriously, why is that? (Not trying to be argumentative). .
Well, like a revolver, the only safety is the trigger, but it's trigger pull is So hard, you won't likely have a ND.

With Glock and M&P being the trigger is the only safety, but the trigger pull is 2lb, you likely will.

1911( grip and thumb), S&W 5906( decocker), Sig ( decocker, long trigger pull),etc has safeties other than the trigger, so those are good to go.
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Old 03-12-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
You don't strictly speaking NEED both hands.... But I've ripped jeans before doing one handed reloading drills!


(crazy how most sites are sloped on the side you DON'T want them to be.)
No one has mentioned injury, you may injure a hand and be having to do a one hand reload with the weak hand.
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Old 03-12-2014, 03:48 PM
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...With Glock and M&P being the trigger is the only safety, but the trigger pull is 2lb, you likely will (have an ND).
You do realize that factory Glock triggers average 5.5 - 6 lbs?

I don't put my finger on the trigger (of any handgun) until I've identified my target and have decided to shoot. That by itself almost completely mitigates the possibility of an ND.

Glocks require dedicated trigger awareness and good holster protection of the trigger guard area. Most of the NDs I've seen with that weapon occurred when someone wrapped their finger around the trigger when they shouldn't have (e.g., as they cleared the holster) or got careless and snagged the trigger while re-holstering. Or tried to use one Mexican Carry (no holster).

I knew a young twenty-something rising star in the local Serbian mafia while I was working in Bosnia. He was a useful street informant. He'd stop by in a stolen BMW, wearing gold neck chains, with two extremely hot Russian whores on his arms... and eventually, a Glock 17 tucked into his front waistband... pointed right at the family jewels. Miami Viceski in the flesh.

One day, showing a little embarrassment, he asked me to show him how to unload his pistol. Like the BMW, he'd simply acquired an already fully loaded Glock on the street... without the slightest idea of how to operate it. He'd apparently never even test fired it. And he'd been carrying it that way (no holster) for a week or two. Amazing.

I gave him a 2 minute class on loading and unloading. I didn't bother to explain the trigger, holster, and safety concerns. I never liked him anyway.

Thanks for the response.
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
You do realize that factory Glock triggers average 5.5 - 6 lbs?
well, of course. Do you realize that you can get a 3.5lb connector and that most Glock owners have them and have them tweaked to 2.5? My M&P9 has the revised trigger and is 2.5lb and there's NO way I'd carry with one in the pipe( altho, I changed my carry from 4:00 to appendix). I trust my skills enough that I'm sure I could get to condition 1 easily enough. ymmv.


Quote:
I don't put my finger on the trigger (of any handgun) until I've identified my target and have decided to shoot. That by itself almost completely mitigates the possibility of an ND.
Really? That's nice. I've been civilian carrying for over 10 yrs(and bet you haven't, or you wouldn't be saying what you are) and know that your clothes and day to day activity can do things to your pistol. I had a Kimber that had a ambi thumb safety and every day( several times a day), my clothes, furniture, etc, would take the safety off. I took the ambi off the gun( and made it one sided) and they still take the thumb safety off. Thanks to JMB for the grip safety. Carry at your own risk..
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:54 PM
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I bought my first G17 in 1985. I own a 19, 23, and 21 today. I have never bothered with a lightened connector on my Glocks, because they ain't a good idea for gunfights. And if you had been in one, you'd understand why. But they're great for hobby shooters punching paper on square ranges.

BTW: Most Glock owners don't do anything to their pistol except buy it and shoot it.

Been carrying CCW since 1975.
Trained my first class of combat pistol students in 1979.
Trained my most recent a few weeks ago.

But I'm all ears about your ten years of CCW experience.

Agree re: ambi-safeties on 1911s. They come off even with factory Colt small paddles. That was the one thing I didn't like about the last gun I was issued (in the photo up thread). That extended ambi paddle would occasionally wipe off even in a hard shell 6004 holster. Have had the same problem IWB and OWB. No big deal. No risk. But I don't use 'em on my personal guns.

I'm glad you've a little bit of experience. As the years go by, I'm sure you'll acquire more...
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:30 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is offline
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Originally Posted by letsgetreal View Post
well, of course. Do you realize that you can get a 3.5lb connector and that most Glock owners have them and have them tweaked to 2.5? My M&P9 has the revised trigger and is 2.5lb and there's NO way I'd carry with one in the pipe( altho, I changed my carry from 4:00 to appendix). I trust my skills enough that I'm sure I could get to condition 1 easily enough. ymmv.




Really? That's nice. I've been civilian carrying for over 10 yrs(and bet you haven't, or you wouldn't be saying what you are) and know that your clothes and day to day activity can do things to your pistol. I had a Kimber that had a ambi thumb safety and every day( several times a day), my clothes, furniture, etc, would take the safety off. I took the ambi off the gun( and made it one sided) and they still take the thumb safety off. Thanks to JMB for the grip safety. Carry at your own risk..
since we are measuring.... I've also got you beat and agree with the other poster/disagree with you and your claim.
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