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Old 09-07-2013, 03:11 PM
Thefranks2009 Thefranks2009 is offline
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Well said Zeke. I don't believe breeding is a scam at all, I just think you have to be very, very careful
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Old 09-07-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ben&janelle View Post
We are starting to look for a dog(s) to have when we move up to our wilderness property. Mountain lions are a problem there, and neighbors have said two or more dogs will really help deter them from coming close to people. I don't have any problem with a shelter dog. My issue is that I don't know how to train a dog for guard/livestock protection, and how do you know if the shelter dog you get will have the natural instinct for what you want to train it to do? I thought that was the main purpose for getting a purebred (I couldn't care less about having a show dog), so that you know it should have certain inherent qualities that lend themselves to the dog learning more easily what you want it to learn. I would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions on how to pick a dog that will be a good guardian for both us and our chickens, goats, etc., yet not an aggressive dog unless the situation truly calls for it.
When it comes to fighting mountain lions with 5 weapons and speed, you need a dog with very high agility and the ability to make the lion "miss" with a good coat. Pure bulk isn't going to cut it because a mountain lion will go after elk weighing far more than dogs do.

With that in mind you also need to remember that you really cannot expect any dog breed to go up against full grown mountain lion and come out on top with any regularity. Even the best dog might be only good for one attack or two before you have to retire or put down the dog.

Also, dogs good at guarding land and livestock are not always the best dogs for home and family defense. You are talking about two different sets of priorities there. Even with land and livestock there are some differences. Shepherding animals and guarding them are two distinct functions that rarely favor a single breed.

You likely will need several different dogs that each work their own turf. Like a Rotty for around the house, a Great Pyrenees to wander the property line, and a good shepherd dog to stay around your goats.

While hunting for some easy info for you on the Pyrenees I found a nice link that offers some suggestions. It covers a lot of breeds used in the Old World for guarding sheep and goats from mountain lions,coyotes, and wolves. Incidentally it is also a site devoted to mountain lions and their conservation too. Might be worth your time to grab a bit of reading there so you know more about what you will be dealing with.

http://www.mountainlion.org/portalpr...ardanimals.asp

Also of interest might be the USDA page on recommended livestock guard dogs.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/compani.../guarddogs.htm
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:48 PM
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With that in mind you also need to remember that you really cannot expect any dog breed to go up against full grown mountain lion and come out on top with any regularity. Even the best dog might be only good for one attack or two before you have to retire or put down the dog.
Well said Zeke,
But this here brought to mind a story within one of the documentaries on Dogs I suggested earleir.

They tracked the breeding selection process of the Dogo Argentino which is a fairly new breed that two brothers who were ranchers in Argentina developed to take on the Wild Boar problem they had down there.
Not only was it a fascinating lesson on how they brought the breed to be,
but there was a particularly heart warming story of one of their older Sires who responded to the screams of one of their granddaughters who was being attacked by a Puma.

The Dogo ran off to protect the child and the child was able to get away. The father ran to where the fight had happened to retrieve his dead dogo. What he found was a very torn up Dogo and a dead Puma. That Dogo has a place of honor now in the family and they still owned the old guy at the time of the filiming. He was a pretty ugly old torn up Dogo but he was treated like a king by the family.

Was just an incredible story of the simply miraculous nature of Dogs.

I have recently heard that folks in Texas and other parts of the south have been importing and breeding the Dogo for their feral hog problems. Maybe there are some southerners who can elaborate on that.

I highly recommend the movie to anyone who loves Dogs.

Here is a clip I found on the story, enjoy!



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Old 09-07-2013, 09:35 PM
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Has anyone ever thought about keeping some sort of big canine for SHTF? I figured it would be a good idea to have a guard dog but on the other hand it would also give your position away by barking.What do some of you think?
My family had large trained dogs growing up (Black Labrador Retrievers, GSD). Now I am a fan of smaller dogs. They are much more portable, eat less, and my perspective is that I pay the dog (so to speak) to be an alarm system.
I prefer not to have the liability of an attack animal, the higher food costs, nor the shorter life span of a larger animal. Guard/protection/attack animals are AMAZINGLY simple to kill by a man armed with only a sharpened stick. While an UNarmed man is pretty much screwed if one of these animals attacks him, the best thing an animal can do for an ARMED man is take a bite. Once the dog's mouth is busy on an arm/leg/groin (I was taught to "feed" an attack animal my "off" arm, hand in a fist), the sharpened stick, knife, bat, common hammer can be employed to kill said dog in less then ten seconds. $4000 AND my dog... down the drain. No thanks. Heaven forbid my guard animal bites someone... coz most everywhere now, said dog will be walking the Green Mile. Again, huge money and my dog down the drain.
In the last few years I have become a fan of the 20-30 pound "mixed breed" generic dog. *shrug*
If I lived out in the country, had cattle, etc., then I would probably consider a larger specialized breed that I could pour countless dollars and personal time into for purchase, training, etc.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:18 PM
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OBW, a Dogo might be good in big cat country while hunting but they are more of a companion dog than a true herd guard dog or property dog. Fine for the porch as the last line of dog defense, but definitely not suited for front line duty out with a herd.

Also, even that story of the heroism of that Dogo showed that the owner expected a dead dog and the miracle was that the dog survived. The next encounter could that dog's last. For sure, most other dogs wouldn't have made it. It is simply an unfair fight against a larger and more agile animal that regularly uses three weapons and can bring two more if necessary. Once a dog goes for the bite it has committed everything. If the choice was wrong a dog has no Plan B. That cat always has a backup.

Owners of dogs in big cat areas should have very realistic expectations when they put dogs out to protect their herd animals. The dog's chances will always be poor. The chance of laming or killing the dog will be high. He will need to find a good breeder who is also affordable enough that he can replace lost dogs. He will need to learn to not get so attached to these dogs either because they aren't pets and he could be burying them with regularity.


Now for a lateral move......

As an aside and a sop to those who want a smaller breed that are only expected to be a watch dog and not a true guard, then I recommend the standard sized Schnauzers. It's a very well rounded dog that is smart, alert, and very good with family. Got a good bark on them and are brave little suckers too. They are also known as "kinderwachters" in Germany as they excel at taking care of children. They also have the energy to tire out your rugrats when you can't. Just don't let them get too bored or they will get mischievous. My grandmother had one and I remember it being a very astute dog. A very clean animal as I remember too. She took it everywhere with her and was a fine companion for her. It's about the only non-large dog I ever actually liked.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:47 AM
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Zeke,
I think you mistook my post as being an advertisement for getting a Dogo as the previous poster had suggested needing Dogs to guard for Big Cats.

I was merely sharing a story that I loved about a very brave Dog that so loved his children that he took on a Mountain Lion and WON!

I think if you were hunting Big Cats they might be a pretty good choice as a pack.

I don't think for a second that this would be typical outcome for any single Dog, whether it be my Rott's or a Dogo. I was merely sharing a Dog Lover story.

I actually agree with you that for protecting against big Cats you would need a team of light quick footed hounds that can coordinate an attack against a cat in order to expect a level of success.

As for your comment about Schnauzers, the only small dog I have ever owned was a Schnauzer when the kids were yournger and they wanted a lap dog. I felt pretty GAY bringing home a cute little fluff mutt but I had to admit that dog was one of the smartest dogs I have ever seen. Came to find out that is pretty breed typical. The other thing my wife loved was that they DON"T shed! I had no idea before we got one! Boy if I could somehow extract that gene and give that to my Rotts! At least Rott's are short haired and don't shed much even in the summer months.

My Labs I think were some of the worst for me personally but my sons Pug, took the Shedding Championship of the WORLD! That dog would leave a fine mist of short hairs everywhere and on everything! I could not believe it was possible that the dog could grow hair fast enough to shed that much! I used to ask my son, HOW IS HE NOT BALD!

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Old 09-08-2013, 12:56 AM
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My family had large trained dogs growing up (Black Labrador Retrievers, GSD). Now I am a fan of smaller dogs. They are much more portable, eat less, and my perspective is that I pay the dog (so to speak) to be an alarm system.
I prefer not to have the liability of an attack animal, the higher food costs, nor the shorter life span of a larger animal.
In the last few years I have become a fan of the 20-30 pound "mixed breed" generic dog. *shrug*
If I lived out in the country, had cattle, etc., then I would probably consider a larger specialized breed that I could pour countless dollars and personal time into for purchase, training, etc.
I think that is the most incredible thing about Dogs.
They can genetically mutate so quickly within just a few short generations to become whatever type of dog works best for you.

That is the beauty, you can find a Dog for whatever kind of lifestyle you have and for whatever kind of things you want your dog to be able to do for you.

Dogs are like Guns, there is no one perfect breed for everyone.
You can research and find the breed that suits you best.

Problem is not with the dogs, the problem is people don't usually do enough research to find the breed that suits what they want out of a dog and then blame the dog when they are disappointed.

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Old 09-08-2013, 12:27 PM
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I myself have favorite kinds of dogs and dogs I detest for personality traits. To each his own. I love dogs, however as far as defense is concerned I shot a silenced .22 with subsonic ammo and honestly it was almost silent. I mean QUIET. It surprised me how quiet. So unless you miss and end up with a lot of yelping I think most dogs could be very quickly neutralized. If the bad guys wanted to play a bit of chess by killing off the dogs in less than quiet or covert ways it could stack the board in their favor. Then they play the wait you out game.

Big or small the dogs, the primary purpose IMHO is to alert the owner. I am much more dangerous than any dog I know. Don't believe me. Police just shoot dogs they feel intimidated with and it's over. Even trained dogs go down when ventilated sufficiently. Bad guys with a plan would likely do the same.

On the upside, especially women and children walking a sufficiently large and intimidating dog in public places will deter most would be ner do wells. They do have their place for sure.
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Old 09-08-2013, 03:18 PM
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I have spiked collars stashed away too
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Old 09-08-2013, 03:32 PM
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I myself have favorite kinds of dogs and dogs I detest for personality traits. To each his own. I love dogs, however as far as defense is concerned I shot a silenced .22 with subsonic ammo and honestly it was almost silent. I mean QUIET. It surprised me how quiet. So unless you miss and end up with a lot of yelping I think most dogs could be very quickly neutralized. If the bad guys wanted to play a bit of chess by killing off the dogs in less than quiet or covert ways it could stack the board in their favor. Then they play the wait you out game.

Big or small the dogs, the primary purpose IMHO is to alert the owner. I am much more dangerous than any dog I know. Don't believe me. Police just shoot dogs they feel intimidated with and it's over. Even trained dogs go down when ventilated sufficiently. Bad guys with a plan would likely do the same.

On the upside, especially women and children walking a sufficiently large and intimidating dog in public places will deter most would be ner do wells. They do have their place for sure.
I think you are taking a rather narrow view of the situations that could occur.

In my situation where we live in the mountains in a heavily wooded environment I think if someone were trying to sneak up on us and kill us, or our dogs, they would likely find themselves staring down the throats of several 130+ lb K-9's when they were getting in position for their hide. In which case I wish them luck with their little suppressed .22.

And even if they were able to succesfully shoot and disable ALL of the dogs they would suddenly find themselves trying to evade several hundred little balls of flying lead.

They may be stealthy enough to escape my notice but with a Dogs sense of smell and hearing I doubt someone could be stealthy enough to escape notice from the dogs.

I don't think logical people believe that their dogs are going to be able to be a single defense line, in and of themselves. They are simply the front line of defense.

Be prepared,
OBW

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Old 09-08-2013, 03:47 PM
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A well trained dog is an asset, but then again you've got the problems inherit to all living things - they've got to be fed, they can become sick and sometimes they can make noise...Personally, I'm in favor of an apocalyptic canine; it'll be just like in the movies.
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:24 PM
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I think you are taking a rather narrow view of the situations that could occur.

They may be stealthy enough to escape my notice but with a Dogs sense of smell and hearing I doubt someone could be stealthy enough to escape notice from the dogs.

I don't think logical people believe that their dogs are going to be able to be a single defense line, in and of themselves. They are simply the front line of defense.

Be prepared,
OBW

.
I agree with your points. But many people do actually think their dogs are going to save them. My points parallel yours in that the dogs main purpose is alerting the owner.

In Argentina after the economic collapse people found their guard dogs poisoned or shot days or weeks before being invaded by the bad guys. Bad guys aren't totally stupid and sooner or later they will wonder why you have the dogs and why you can afford to feed them. I think having a good dog is an asset as long as you recognize their limitations.
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:41 PM
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I will never be without a German Shepherd. like anything else, you usually get what you pay for, with a few exception.

My current dog is a german import and is incredibly intelligent. he has proven himself around my wife with a creep of a repair man who decided to grab ahold of my wife in our own home. hes also a great deterrent to the neighborhood thug-wannabes who walk by while we are doing bite sleeve work in the front yard

now my wife also has a couple Pomeranians, I don't claim them, and I will say that they are a good alarm. their small scared nature causes them to alert much more quickly than me or my GSD will. that said, I have gotten to where I really only look if the GSD alerts to something, even if the little dogs are going off first.
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Old 09-09-2013, 02:42 PM
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Personally, I would go with Greyhounds. The don't eat much, are really good at catching small game, and are big enough to discourage people. And they're nice. Since they're sighthounds they are very alert also. My Presa Canario would be more trouble than he's worth because he eats as much as a person, if not more. And he's pretty loud. I'd rather have a dog that can help feed me and isn't much hassle than that giant son of a bitch who eats everything.
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:00 PM
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With Fidalgoman on this one, my dog's role is to raise the alarm that's it. If he attacks he risks injury that I don't want. I'm going to attack from ambush. If my dog barks, he's the least of your worries.
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:52 PM
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I think having a dog is a good idea. In fact I had a dog growing up that would've made the perfect SHTF companion. He was a Siberian Husky, and was EXTREMELY protective of me but he also did the most awesome thing. He caught/killed a small animal or two a week for years. He would only chew off and eat the head of the animal and lay the headless body at my feet! He was my little hunter/protector. I just wonder if I could ever get another Husky to do that?
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:53 PM
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With Fidalgoman on this one, my dog's role is to raise the alarm that's it. If he attacks he risks injury that I don't want. I'm going to attack from ambush. If my dog barks, he's the least of your worries.
I guess to each their own theory and maybe some of that is based on where you live.

Personally I spend quite a bit of training time teaching my Dogs NOT to bark.

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Old 09-09-2013, 06:03 PM
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Default not making any judgements.

didn't somebody with a family dog get shot up by some feds a while ago back? be safe.
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:14 PM
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My wife and I sleep well at night with our Blue Heeler at the foot of the bed. Generally speaking they are extremely smart and loyal. Though not the biggest dog I am not sure I would want to tangle with one protecting her owners.
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:20 PM
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With Fidalgoman on this one, my dog's role is to raise the alarm that's it. If he attacks he risks injury that I don't want. I'm going to attack from ambush. If my dog barks, he's the least of your worries.
I can agree with this as well. my dog looks at my wife as his to protect when im not home but you cant tell hes a different dog when im around as he looks to me. now he will still go on command from my wife. If he provides me with an advanced warning and/or causes someone to pause for just a second, then I have the time I need to react. the deterrent of him being around is much more valuable.

I can only hope but imagine he will be greatly protective of our daughter due in December.
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