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View Poll Results: Is a gun or a bunker better?
Is a gun best? 45 22.28%
Is a bunker best? 15 7.43%
Are both very good to own or even work to acquire? 146 72.28%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-24-2013, 03:21 PM
Woody951 Woody951 is offline
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First off, let me fully admit that we are totally cheesy – a bunch of grown men running around shooting each other with BB guns. I’ll get that out of the way before you get swamped with posts making fun of us.

I’ve been through a lot of “high speed” schools in the military and they were great for learning basic tactics. But the sound of a BB whizzing past your ear adds a sense of realism - it really impresses on you the importance of good cover and moving tactically. I’ve trained with SIMS, paintball and even the laser tag systems they used in the Army in the 90’s. I still prefer the good old BB gun. Does it hurt? Heck yes! But it’s also super fun, cheaper than paintball and we’ve actually learned a lot about moving/shooting as a group.

We've been doing this for years and we’ve run several scenarios, including trying to storm a cabin with a lone gunman inside, wooded areas, clearing structures and even a bunker assault. One thing it overwhelmingly clear: an armed/barricaded person has the advantage over a much larger group assaulting the position. With enough troops, you might eventually kill him, but not before suffering severe losses.

That's what's great about your setup Mike. It’s very well hidden, so most opposing forces would likely go right past it without knowing you were there. Even if they noticed your bunker, you can exact a tremendous toll on any force trying to push their way inside. Their leader would have to decide if it’s worth that toll to take what you have. Absent RPG’s or heavy artillery, you would snipe many of his men before they got close enough to attempt a breach.

Here’s one of our cheap videos. It’s obviously not as professional as yours Mike, but I thought you might appreciate it since we’re assaulting a fortified structure/bunker:


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Old 04-26-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Woody951 View Post
First off, let me fully admit that we are totally cheesy – a bunch of grown men running around shooting each other with BB guns. I’ll get that out of the way before you get swamped with posts making fun of us.

I’ve been through a lot of “high speed” schools in the military and they were great for learning basic tactics. But the sound of a BB whizzing past your ear adds a sense of realism - it really impresses on you the importance of good cover and moving tactically. I’ve trained with SIMS, paintball and even the laser tag systems they used in the Army in the 90’s. I still prefer the good old BB gun. Does it hurt? Heck yes! But it’s also super fun, cheaper than paintball and we’ve actually learned a lot about moving/shooting as a group.

We've been doing this for years and we’ve run several scenarios, including trying to storm a cabin with a lone gunman inside, wooded areas, clearing structures and even a bunker assault. One thing it overwhelmingly clear: an armed/barricaded person has the advantage over a much larger group assaulting the position. With enough troops, you might eventually kill him, but not before suffering severe losses.

That's what's great about your setup Mike. It’s very well hidden, so most opposing forces would likely go right past it without knowing you were there. Even if they noticed your bunker, you can exact a tremendous toll on any force trying to push their way inside. Their leader would have to decide if it’s worth that toll to take what you have. Absent RPG’s or heavy artillery, you would snipe many of his men before they got close enough to attempt a breach.

Here’s one of our cheap videos. It’s obviously not as professional as yours Mik, but I thought you might appreciate it since we’re assaulting a fortified structure/bunker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5lA2...QJqWu1UzzxuhFm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgzDp...QJqWu1UzzxuhFm
Thanks for posting that Woody.

Your post and videos prove that WR and I are not the only ones who have made a bunker shooting video. Even if you did only use bb's

But really I am not making fun of you and no one else better either although they can try if they wish.

I think using paintball or even bb's can be useful and people should not get hurt either.

Watch Ryder and I did use live ammo - 12 gauge and a few other kinds of ammo. No one has identified all of the guns we used in the video though. I can If no one else will.

But very good to see your videos Woody and IF anyone else has similar vids please post...
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:19 PM
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Love the drop and roll, Woody! too much fun
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:42 AM
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You guys need to stop tearing mike down. most of the ones saying it are all mall ninjas. I personally inspected mikes bunker and surrounding area and i would say out of every place i ever witnessed it had the biggest chance of surviving almost anything! have you seen the dam snow up there? it crushed his effing A frame shed Mike told me about some dumbass tourists that died in a snowstorm because they got stuck up there around his property! There are people that live around him but most dont take living up there seriously except for the guy i met filling up his water tank from the spring.

Now i have to say the bunker isnt complete yet in my opinion.. it doesnt have a seal on it making it easy for animals and other problems to come in. If it were hermetically sealed somehow and that plexiglass part replaced with more concrete and maybe a special sun porthole thing I have seen in some houses which makes the sun light up the inside of a home through a magnifier. And probably some wiring to some lights and alternative heat besides wood in there ( hook the solar to the inside of the bunker) then it would be perfect. he has plenty of wood water , space and resources just sitting there on the place.

Once you make that cabin ( hopefully ill make it this summer to help) it will be a bit more cozy than the darker colder confines of the bunker. Also i couldnt help but notice alot of stuff could be salvaged from the ruins of the broken shed right on and beside the bunker. i tried to salvage what i could but i was worried about being cut up by some of the rusty or broken stuff. I highly reccomend getting everyone that comes up to dig that out, get the good stuff and burn the bad in a big bonfire so the pests and animals etc have nothing to live in and feed off of. I will bring more water in a big container if i can and some more food to share


And movies to trade ya of course :P I hope you liked what i gave ya.
I would happily help you make a new storage facility and maybe move that gate further back so its not obvious someone lives there.

That and just fix up and make it more efficient ( like the toilet :P ) we might need to move that somewhere closer to the road thats not near the water supply.



all in all mike has made excellent use of his property and free supplies and hopefully we can make it a place to learn and promote self sufficiency and survival.

I am finally answering this good post of Kroenen's which proves that I am ridiculously patient. Kro's above post was written on 2-10-13.

I was going to answer it much earlier but I had to work at the corn research station and my Dad had back surgery and a few other time consuming things happened also.
And I knew to fully answer Kroenen's post I would have to spend an hour or more responding to all of the many things that needed clarifying and telling the way it really is up on my mtn place.

He got most of it right but I still have to go through the above post and correct and give the true details and also my thoughts on his good post.

I do know that Kroenen has seen quite a few places in the mountains, even some other survival retreats, cabins etc. etc. mainly in Colorado and some other areas also.
So thanks Kro for saying that "I personally inspected mikes bunker and surrounding area and i would say out of every place i ever witnessed it had the biggest chance of surviving almost anything!" You are not the only one to say that and I also think that my retreat and the vast mountain area for at least a hundred miles in every direction is the best survival area I know about and I have seen 20 different states, mainly west of Nebraska and Kansas. Although in the early eighties I did drive to Washington D.C. and through states that Interstate 70 goes through plus VA, TN, NC etc.

There is an overabundance of wood, water and wildlife plus some other things on and all around my mtn retreat.
Many would not like the deep snowpack from Nov. to June but that just helps keep out most people and makes for more water storage up there plus making the whole area as or more remote than many parts of Alaska, even similar to northern Canada with balsam firs etc. and taiga = subalpine forest up there.

Some years there can be over 12 feet of snowpack although a couple winters ago there was way below average snow from Nov. to June at around maybe only 5 feet average. Most years there are 8 to 10 feet of snowpack.

And actually my A-frame shed is the only above ground shed I have that was not really crushed by the heavy snows. Three winters ago when there was way above normal snowpack one part of the roof of the A-frame did get damaged but still functions. The roof of my other 3 sheds especially the one Kroenen talks about later in his post did get almost half of the roof crushed. But that shed was mostly for firewood storage plus other old storage. My most valuable items are stored deep inside the underground bunker which is the only structure that I have built that the deep heavy snowpack has never damaged. That one heavy snow year only a 5 inch crack occured on a part of the roof of the bunker which I easily patched.

And when Kro said that: "some dumbass tourists that died in a snowstorm because they got stuck up there around his property!" that is mostly right although the tourists were 75 year old neighbors with a cabin about 2 miles down the private dirt road. They never should have went up there in early Feb. 1998 and then they tried to leave on a Tuesday when no one else was up there. Not even snowmobilers were up around there on a weekday. If they would have left on a Saturday there would have been plenty of snowmobilers, skiers etc. around especially on the snowmobile trail which is state highway 70 from mid June to mid Nov. when it is not closed and no snow up there.

Those two people tried to start their snowmobiles but it was too cold and they would not start. They got one finally started but it got stuck after less than a mile and they tried to walk out to the locked gate and parking area 6 miles down the trail where their vehicle was parked.
They walked within a mile from their vehicle but the lady died - froze to death and the 75 year old guy almost froze but he did lose some fingers.
Fortunately some snowmobilers found him on the side of the snowmobile trail.

No one was up there at other cabins and I usually never am up there in the winter, especially in February. Someday I do hope to live up there permanently but I have to finish the new cabin plus do a few more things to prepare.

The guy who Kroenen met who was filling his 300 gallon water tank does take survival more seriously than many, not more than I do and that guy drinks way too much beer etc. as well as the funny weed. And he owns a fairly large cabin with 2 of his brothers. They could store much more food, water and supplies up there though. Here is a video of that guy with me helping him get water from the waterfall spring about 1/4 of a mile up the road from my land >


About sealing my bunker is that I probably will someday soon. Although the way it is built now it has a vent - opening under the steel front door and also an opening near the back trap door so there is a chimney effect that creates good ventilation.
I should put screens over those openings to keep out mice, a porcupine etc. Although a marten sometimes goes through and gets mice as well as one of the best mouse hunters around - an ermine or some call it a short tailed weasel. Actually few animals go deep inside the bunker and stay around the edges from what I have seen.
Only the porcupine really likes the deep dark coolness to sleep in although I have seen the porcupine more under the woodshed the past couple years.

The plexiglass window is almost unbreakable and a great window to let much sunlight into the bunker - underground storage storm shelter. I will put bags of hardened concrete, even much dirt over that one plexiglass / plastic window if necessary someday but in the winter and most of the year I keep that window covered with plywood. >



I am not sure about any alternative heat since I do have 2 woodstoves in the underground shelter - the larger one near the front door and a smaller airtight cast iron stove near the back trap door.
The solar panels would be mainly to power the lights and any radios etc. I have. And I use the solar panels to do that for 5 years, mainly in the summer. I also have a 100 foot extension cord running from the solar panels to the bunker. And I also have a gas generator for emergency power and when there are too many cloudy days for solar power.

I could go on and on trying to answer more such as about the "ruins" of a shed or two but this post is getting too long.
After I do finally get the new partially underground cabin with 2 large windows and greenhouse built, hopefully built by October 2013 then I will concentrate on cleaning up the sheds which are messy mainly from a no good bear which ransacked and tore into plastic storage bags and boxes in those sheds at least 2 years ago.

I do not need more water since I have at least 2 fulltime springs and up to 7 springs when the snow is melting in May to early July. I can always use more storage containers though. I do have three 50 gallon black plastic containers for water now though up there.
I did like the movies I got from your 1 Terabyte hard drive Kroenen. Never have seen so many movies on a hard drive before. I mainly still have Les Stroud's videos which I have watched a couple times. I never watch those survival shows on tv since I never had cable or satellite.

I might build one more storage facility - shed although it is a low priority now. And about the gate which was Watch Ryder's project is that is not too bad. I never had a gate before and while it does show where the beginning of my driveway is it also really helps keep out anyone who might try to drive up onto my land. Which some years I have had trespassers come right up even all the way up my driveway and around the A-frame shed. No way anyone can drive up to or even within 100 or so feet to the bunker.

And about the toilet / outhouse is that I first built it about as far from my drinking water springs as I could. I likely will build another outhouse up on the sunny hillside which will be much further from the springs, maybe even this next summer.
I will not build an outhouse closer to the road since it would be seen more easily and there is the main spring that runs along the road. Seen here >



But thanks for the good post Kroenen and I do hope to see you this summer. You are welcome to camp and stay as long as you wish. If you have more important things to do I understand although I cannot think of any better or more interesting things to do than the unique experience of Living on and near my remote mountain place.

I also hope Watch Ryder will come up again this summer but he wants to go elsewhere in the USA although I hope he will stop by for a day or more anyway.

There will likely be two or more people on my mtn retreat most of this summer and even into October or later. Especially a lady about my age whom I look forward to meeting and finally having a good woman to help me and likely inspire me to do much more up there. She also has written some books and has much survival, hiking, camping and various outdoors experience. More later about her the rest of this year as well as other good things that will hopefully occur this coming year.

Given enough time, effort and some help I hope to make my remote Wyoming mountain retreat into one of the best places anywhere to learn and Live survival and self sufficiency and make it more than a good survival retreat; yes even an excellent off grid self sustaining homestead!
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:58 PM
powderandprimers powderandprimers is offline
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Mike, was that a PS90 in the one video? Pretty sure it was. My buddy has one. Interesting gun but I can't get used to having to crane my neck so far forward (had neck surgery years ago and don't have good range of movement).

I think you need both a secure location like your shelter and firearms to answer your original question. I'm going to build something similar to your's but with a little different purpose. The only thing I should have to buy is maybe some steel for the door and the bags of concrete. The rest will be stuff I get for free or use from my own land (rocks, logs, etc).
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:34 AM
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Of course Patton thought fixed fortifications were foolish. He was referring to things like the Maginot Line, which the Germans simply outflanked. You add in artillery and heavy bombers, and of course bunkers become tombs.

Unless the "raiders" secure some military hardware, they won't have artillery. Would blowing up what you have be worth a very valuable mortar shell? They won't have fuel to fly a bomber and won't have a need to bomb your bunker. The 'G' (government) might have a need to drone strike you, but since you would be likely vaporized, that won't matter.

My point being if the SHTF, a bunker IS a good idea because the most powerful weapons one might have is a rifle. A strong fortification, especially with multiple well trained defenders and interlocking fields of fire, won't be a place easily taken. Take for example a medieval fort like Baba Vida in Bulgaria. The Kumbhalgarh in India. If you had a large amount of water and other supplies, even a place like Fort Jackson in the Dry Tortugas would be nearly impregnable for a long time against "raiders". What's old will become new again. Against the power and tech of the 'G', all bets are off. Best stay off that radar.

Who is your likely enemy if society collapses? Someone who is going to have the same weapons and capabilities that you have. I do not think a fortification is a death trap against this type of opponent.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:28 PM
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Thanks for the two most recent posts. Glad a Few like this thread.

And powdersandprimers that is a PS90 show in the videos and was the main gun I used when I shot out of the bunker. Watch Ryder did most of the shooting in the video. Even shooting himself when he tried to bomb the bunker with the pack of firecrackers.

I hope many can tell what all the guns are in the videos on the first page of this thread but the last one which I was shooting might be more difficult. This pic is the closest I can find on the net to what that $1,500 PS 90 gun, looks like >



Wish the video could have shown All 50 rounds being shot but it jammed after just less than 30 rounds being fired out of the porthole. Which is why the neighbor I borrowed the gun from sold it. I paid that neighbor $25 mainly to cover the cost of the 50 rounds.

And powderandprimers I hope you will post some pics if / when you build your bunker / shelter. It can mainly be used for secure storage and even a good place to go to in case of some kind of collapse, war, raiders or even the most powerful tornado!

And good post Kpz1234. Wish more on this Survivalistboards, could think and use as much reasoning as you just posted.

IF there ever is a collapse of some kind or even a Great Depression then the government would surely have many more concerns rather than someone who owns a bunker. Even if that bunker has some ammo, guns and cans of beans.....

IF someone owns a well fortified structure such as a bunker / storm shelter = something like what is shown on page one of this thread then the smart "raiders" or whomever would surely choose easier softer targets such as thousands of cabins / houses all over this country.

And I Must post the following. Few will likely see these pics but I must show them and you can come to your own conclusions.

I do like portholes and they are extremely strong structures for doorways or portals.

Looking out of the main porthole out of the bunker >



Showing outside the bunker with drain pipe etc. >



I also want to tell that NO one except myself has ever seen the very back of the bunker. I do hope to dig possibly 100 feet more into the mountainside or at Least 20 more feet but maybe I already have? A pic that no one has ever seen me post before, not even the "famous Watch Ryder" and I will not, I cannot tell any more details about this - Maybe someday >
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Old 08-02-2013, 04:41 AM
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Intrigued by that MMM, what further secrets await at the Mountain Hold?!
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:51 AM
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Intrigued by that MMM, what further secrets await at the Mountain Hold?!
The Mountain Hold in southern WY - closest town is Encampment, is Full of secrets which possibly only I will ever know.

Now IF anyone were to come back up and prove themselves worthy I would most likely show most of the secrets. Watch Ryder came close and this summer I was going to show him much much more. Maybe someday whenever he will come back to the mountain paradise.

I had at least 7 visitors last summer but I only showed WR the most. Especially regarding any guns I own although I think there is one or two more guns even WR did not see.

Well all for now since I must answer more messages, emails, see one or two people here in Encampment and then go back up and possibly I won't get back down to town and the free wifi until Sept.

I do plan to create a new long pic thread in Nov. or Dec. at the latest, mainly of my new cabin building, which is going slow but sure. And also a few other "adventures" especially with a large bothersome, even destructive bear. Not sure if it is the same bear from 3 years ago but anyway hopefully more pics and info later - at least about the new cabin and bear.....

I also see that the small thumbnail pic has only gotten 8 views so far - so it is still a fairly well kept secret. More later, someday....
MMMM
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Old 09-21-2013, 05:37 PM
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I see many different caliber weapons, that affects the good logistics, Greetings

PS: I never had many weapons, lately had 5 different calibers and reduced to only two 9mm glock .... and like 308 or ak rifle, well known weapons the P90 is just cute, maybe a garand
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:43 PM
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I see many different caliber weapons, that affects the good logistics, Greetings

PS: I never had many weapons, lately had 5 different calibers and reduced to only two 9mm glock .... and like 308 or ak rifle, well known weapons the P90 is just cute, maybe a garand
Thanks for the message Daniel.

It is better to have a Lot of ammo rather than many guns. But if people can afford guns then get all you can. I just like to own some guns if necessary such as for hunting and someday if attacked by a bear or 2 legged critters then I will be glad to own various weapons, much ammo and the bunker.

I would not say the $1,500 PS90 was cute but it was fun to shoot until it jammed. I do not own that gun and it was sold to someone late last year.

Anyway, I Hope more will watch the videos and info in posts #1 and 2 of this thread and give your opinion about guns and bunkers and the value you think they are worth?!
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Old 10-04-2013, 08:50 PM
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I was talking with a guy at work about the Lee Enfield Mk 3 (1918) used in the video and he was impressed. He said it was of (slightly) superior craftmanship than the later Mk4s (1930s and 40s).
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Old 10-14-2013, 04:31 PM
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All good information. Nice thread !
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:01 AM
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Interesting stuff. Bunkers can be incredibly simple. My grandfather fought the Japanese, and they were nuts about bunkers!

In the Buna/Gona beachhead, the Japanese would dig a pit 3 - 4 feet deep, and then cover the pit with coconut logs 1 foot thick or thicker. Then they would add a few inches of dirt, and lay some more coconut lots going the other direction, making a # pattern. Some more dirt, and a 3rd layer of logs going the same direction as the first layer. To this, they would add a foot of dirt. Being the jungle of Papua New Guinea, as soon as they put their shovels down, the bunkers were covered in jungle growth and impossible to see. Each bunker was built with a firing line that intersected with fire lines from other bunkers, and easily entered/exited from the rear. They could take a direct hit from a 500 pound bomb, and still be operational. The Aussies had to be called in as the Americans could not budge the Japanese out.

Bunkers do very well when hidden, and designed with defense in mind.

Cool stuff, Mtn Man. You are living the high life! Your land is so far superior to most of what I see for sale. I would dearly love some land like yours. In Utah, most of the 'mountain land' for sale is scrub oak at best - on the dry side of the mountain, so no tree growth.

Someday....
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Daeyel View Post
Interesting stuff. Bunkers can be incredibly simple. My grandfather fought the Japanese, and they were nuts about bunkers!

In the Buna/Gona beachhead, the would dig a pit 3 - 4 feet deep, and then cover the pit with coconut logs 1 foot thick or thicker. then they would add a few inches of dirt, and lay some more coconut lots going the other direction, making a # pattern. Some more dirt, and a 3rd layer of logs going the same direction as the first layer. To this, they would add a foot of dirt. Being the jungle of Papua New Guinea, as soon as they put their shovels down, the bunkers were covered in jungle growth and impossible to see. Each bunker was built with a firing line that intersected with fire lines from other bunkers, and easily entered/exited from the rear. They could take a direct hit from a 500 pound bomb, and still be operational. The Aussies had to be called in as the Americans could not budge the Japanese out.

Bunkers do very well when hidden, and designed with defense in mind.

Cool stuff, Mtn Man. You are living the high life! Your land is so far superior to most of what I see for sale. I would dearly love some land like yours. In Utah, most of the 'mountain land' for sale is scrub oak at best - on the dry side of the mountain, so no tree growth.

Someday....
Wisdom post! We don't see to many of them these days on the S-Boards!

I have seen some good videos of Utah's greener parts, but I think they weren't or sale and were national forest zones.
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Old 01-05-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeyel View Post
Interesting stuff. Bunkers can be incredibly simple. My grandfather fought the Japanese, and they were nuts about bunkers!

In the Buna/Gona beachhead, the Japanese would dig a pit 3 - 4 feet deep, and then cover the pit with coconut logs 1 foot thick or thicker. Then they would add a few inches of dirt, and lay some more coconut lots going the other direction, making a # pattern. Some more dirt, and a 3rd layer of logs going the same direction as the first layer. To this, they would add a foot of dirt. Being the jungle of Papua New Guinea, as soon as they put their shovels down, the bunkers were covered in jungle growth and impossible to see. Each bunker was built with a firing line that intersected with fire lines from other bunkers, and easily entered/exited from the rear. They could take a direct hit from a 500 pound bomb, and still be operational. The Aussies had to be called in as the Americans could not budge the Japanese out.

Bunkers do very well when hidden, and designed with defense in mind.

Cool stuff, Mtn Man. You are living the high life! Your land is so far superior to most of what I see for sale. I would dearly love some land like yours. In Utah, most of the 'mountain land' for sale is scrub oak at best - on the dry side of the mountain, so no tree growth.

Someday....
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Originally Posted by Watch Ryder View Post
Wisdom post! We don't see to many of them these days on the S-Boards!

I have seen some good videos of Utah's greener parts, but I think they weren't for sale and were national forest zones.
Thanks for the couple recent messages.
I finally got some time to respond, even responding to other posts and messages I get almost everyday here.

I would like to see Utah's green parts. I have traveled almost all over that state which a big part is desert. I am sure compared to many other states all of Utah is not green and a very harsh desert.

People think that Wyoming is a desolate, ugly desert which some is except for Yellowstone park and many of the vast national forests and the mountain area within 100 miles of my WY mtn retreat.

I think one of the smartest things about Japanese, Vietnamese and some others is that they did like and did use bunkers. The U.S. also did as well as some other countries, especially in WWII. But I doubt as much as some Asian countries who knew how to build very good, well hidden even non-concrete bunkers - underground shelters, tunnels etc.

I have posted before and will again, I use my bunker mainly as a very good secure storage area. I have also used it as a storm shelter with its two woodstoves, during cold snowy weather in October and Nov.

And IF something were to happen as is shown in the first couple posts of this thread then a bunker would also be very good to own. In case of the Chinese army or something similar coming down my private road then I would bug out to the vast national forest and wilderness that surrounds the mtn retreat / Hold.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:43 AM
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[QUOTE=Crutch;5210400]Very Bad ass! I especially love the Iron kill vent. I think a fun vacation would be driving to your bunker and helping you keep building and expanding.

yes! just keep building every year and end up with an underground mansion
to rival the http://winchestermysteryhouse.com
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