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Old 03-10-2016, 09:45 AM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is offline
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Rodney king, yes--great example. Now take a look at the timeline and how the events evolved. I could see something along these lines sparking in small but multiple clusters of ghettos if something was to happen to their freebie king while in office. You'll also note that the open firefights of koreatown were a day after the first events began and began to propagate through other areas. nice try though. They originally developed from local Korean residents arming and protecting their property and businesses from looting and rioters much the same way places and people in Ferguson did. There's another one you can spend time with. Racial outbreaks in the so-called minority groups is volatile. If your bug out plan routes through the ghetto, I can see your desire for more ammo. You'd get farther with an MRAP.


"A day" is often NOT enough time to "get out of the way"
Not to mention I listed several things which DO NOT give you ANY notice.

What we have here is you sitting g behind your keyboard with "20-20 hindsight" and "predicting the past" sorry dude, real world don't work that way.
That's why governments and businesses have RESPONSE.

If you had actually watched the video I linked you to you would of seen the part about how "everyone expected" certain actions on the part of the police, and when they didn't happen it dramatically changed the scinario.

...that's the crystal ball I was talking about. The unexpected has a way of happening.


...but I'm sure you knew that already!
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:49 AM
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I thought the forum was about survival, and the best survival tactic is to avoid situations that will get you killed. Maybe you can, but I can't think of a situation in my lifetime where reading the signs and bugging out in time wouldn't have totally avoided armed civil unrest or rioters.
Bull**** (or you never read or watch the news)
Flashmobs, spontaniously riots at sporting events etc...

You either aren't telling the truth, or have your head WAAAAYYY up your.... sand.
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:51 AM
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Call it a throwback of having been in a reconnaissance mos. In small groups or as an individual moving from A to B, staying fast and light kept me alive. Your experience may vary.
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:54 AM
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I have never once said not to carry anything. I said, in almost every situation paying attention and leaving at the right time can keep you out of a situation where they are needed.
You made the case it was not needed, yet you have it.
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
"A day" is often NOT enough time to "get out of the way"
Not to mention I listed several things which DO NOT give you ANY notice.

What we have here is you sitting g behind your keyboard with "20-20 hindsight" and "predicting the past" sorry dude, real world don't work that way.
That's why governments and businesses have RESPONSE.

If you had actually watched the video I linked you to you would of seen the part about how "everyone expected" certain actions on the part of the police, and when they didn't happen it dramatically changed the scinario.
...that's the crystal ball I was talking about. The unexpected has a way of happening.


...but I'm sure you knew that already!
On that note, are you going to be among them sitting at work waiting for the police to handle it for the day, or are you going to see the beginning signs that it's cracking loose the day before and say "this has potential to get ugly fast--lets get moving and weather it out where we're equipped to."

That was the point. Each type of event has similar dynamics when they occur. Being able to recognize them earlier buys time, which can mean the difference between getting where you need to be and being caught in the $***-storm unexpectedly.
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:23 AM
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Call it a throwback of having been in a reconnaissance mos. In small groups or as an individual moving from A to B, staying fast and light kept me alive. Your experience may vary.
Yea, no. That excuse isn't going to work:

I was an 0311/0321.


Out in the field is certainly different than back at the FOB, but EVERYONE has a FOB (AKA point B). if your one of those under the "nomadic delusion" (slightly ironic given my handle and past) I think we are done. Do a search.

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Originally Posted by CORangefinder View Post
On that note, are you going to be among them sitting at work waiting for the police to handle it for the day, or are you going to see the beginning signs that it's cracking loose the day before and say "this has potential to get ugly fast--lets get moving and weather it out where we're equipped to."

That was the point. Each type of event has similar dynamics when they occur. Being able to recognize them earlier buys time, which can mean the difference between getting where you need to be and being caught in the $***-storm unexpectedly.
My "point B" (as I've talked about before) is offgrid, just a hair over 1/2 mile past the end of the grid/county maintained road, and (after I pay my taxes the next time I go to town) I could sit here till I need yo pay my taxes next year.

But I still visit family, have family go into the hodpital, a little less than a year and a half ago had major surgery myself, have cars break down, have people I actually care about I'd risk getting shot over etc.

If your a loaner with no friends and family and who never goes anywhere I guess I could see your point.

But I'd submit that your not really alive at that point.

I noticed in the back and forth one of you 2 (sorry, your getting interchangeable) talked about "carrying all that ammo in your pack"
This leaves me with the impression you didn't read what I said earlier, at length and in detail.

Let me summarize, since that might sink in:
"With little to no opportunity cost, it is vastly better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." If you have it you can always jettison it, whereas if you need it and don't have it... you may regret it the rest of your life. (Which may be long or very short)
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:04 AM
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You do realize we're comparing legs of the same horse, right? In my first post I said no, I don't keep ammo in my pack, that is on me along with my sidearm before I leave the house. Your situation may be different.

Personally, I have about 12 to 20 miles to cover in order to get home, depending on the circumstances and the route I take. As for family, friends, etc, those are all figured into the scenarios. Everyone has their primary as well as contingencies based on what is happening. We've run drills and even had a couple good false starts that were able to confirm or show holes in what we have.

The additional point I have been trying to get across is that making accurate reads early in an event is critical to everything that follows. Prior events can and do say a lot IF you take the time to look at them. Will it predict everything, no. Will it show you certain things that might give you a huge tactical advantage in your planning and execution? Only if you're willing to look, which is far better than going into motion blind.
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:45 AM
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You both seem to think you can see the future.
To some extent you can. I knew when they said Katrina would hit land that it would be a disaster area. Doesn't always work, but if you pay attention...
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:42 PM
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Personally, I have about 12 to 20 miles to cover in order to get home, depending on the circumstances and the route I take. As for family, friends, etc, those are all figured into the scenarios. Everyone has their primary as well as contingencies based on what is happening. We've run drills and even had a couple good false starts that were able to confirm or show holes in what we have.
I agree with planning and contingencies. It all goes out the window when SHTF for real, but if you have done dry runs, you can at least find some holes to make your life easier when it really counts..

Real scenario:

I was working on a project to re-purpose a former nuclear bomb shelter for the private sector. This location happens to be within 10 miles of a Nuclear power plant.

So during the early phases of reconstruction (gutting really), I happened to stay behind at the site while the crew went to get lunch. I was new to the area and didnt know my AO. I was near the entrance and heard a voice on a loud speaker followed by DTMF tones. I couldnt quite make out what was being said but it was a repeated loop and pretty eerie. Once the air raid siren began to go off, is when my heart skipped a beat. First one siren went off, then another. It was clear skys, no bombers or tornados, the first stage I experienced was confusion.

Though confused, I ran to the car and grabbed my gear. I tried to call my crew but got no answer. I called my wife but again no answer. I texted her to be on the lookout that something may be going on and to check the news. checked the news on my phone but there was no news of an invasion or anything. The siren went off and I was like oh, just a test, but then more voice and more sirens. That's when confusion started to lead to panic.

So, I went into the bunker. I had to disconnect the temporary lights to shut the blast doors, all the meanwhile several minutes had passed and the sirens and voice message were still going off. Once I closed the door I couldnt hear anything. It was an eerie silence with the thump, thump of my heart trying to blow out of my neck. I was trying not to panic, but my adrenaline was through the roof. I was hot and in the dark. I was searching through my pack with my phone because my flashlight wasnt working and I was looking for new batteries. I ended up dumping my pack on the floor to sort through it, because I couldnt find the iosat tablets, or my spare glock magazines. I also didnt realize how hard it was to open new filters and get them on a gas mask in the dark when your brain isnt working. Whole ordeal felt like it took hours.

I stayed in the dark for quite a while, thinking, all kinds of crazy things. I immediately was bracing for a nuclear blast or bombers, but when nothing came, I was imagining an invasion force or paratroopers filling the sky. I know it sounds crazy, but if you are ever in that situation, where panic has set in, and you are cut off from the outside, your brain will go just about anywhere.

Some time passed and I heard tapping on the blast door. One of the crew was calling for me. I opened the door to find the crew was back from Wendys, and the world was still intact.

Meanwhile I was dripping wet from sweat, and had my gas mask on and was ready to shoot at shadows. We all had a good laugh once I explained, but I learned some valuable lessons:

1. There is no time in an emergency. That concept goes out the window. Every second feels like an eternity, and is never enough.

2. Without communications, the world becomes very, very small. If you have no idea whats going on and cannot contact anyone, you are left to "imagine" the script.

3. I had everything I though I needed, but they were not in a state of readiness and my pack was poorly organized. Flashlight was dead, spare batteries were not easily found in the pack. Iosat tablets were in the medical supplies, but looked too much like every other blister pack I had and took a while to identify. Gas mask had new sealed filters which is good, but fumbling around to open the filters and screw them on the mask was way harder then it is on a normal day.

4. My brain wont work properly in an extreme situation. It goes to a very primal state of fear vs action. You either need to be acting, or the fear creeps in. You can have everything you need, but the hurry up and wait, and not knowing the scenario, takes a real toll.

5. Every second felt like an hour, and every time I tried to do something it seemed ten times harder. Frustration is a major player in an emergency.

Ive been through quite a few different situations in my life. Ive been tested and had to deal with several life lessons, but this one was a real eye opener, and nothing really happened (luckily).

Here is a link to the sirens if you want to know what it was like (mind you I was about 10mi away and unable to make out that they were saying it was only a test):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glzfb9YBTY8

Take from it what you will.
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:08 PM
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If you can drive to your BOL ahead of the "curve" or during the SHTF more power to you. If you're on foot before things really take a turn for the "worse". Odds are you are not going to be carrying your MBR out in the open. No encounter with LOE at this time will end well for you and your family. Granted a lot depends on where you live. If the SHTF has hit the fan I assumed you would plan a route to avoid all "bad" areas even if it adds miles to your travel. I keep coming back to what scenarios do you see as having a reasonable chance of happening that you feel the need to go heavy with ammo when on foot bugging out with only your wife and kids? Keep in mind I'm talking reasonable not a situation where you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. I find it interesting that though I asked the question a few times now noone has really responded.

I wonder what two well armed people think of each other if they run into each other on a empty rural dirt road? Is the chance of a misunderstanding the reason you feel the need to go heavy on ammo? Will anxiety/ fear make you wonder if the other is thinking "better safe than sorry" or are you thinking those thoughts? Don't get me wrong in my car my GHB I do have a pistol and extra loaded mags. If I'm bugging out and have to abandon my truck we'll utilize a game cart to carry extra ammo/arms. If we have to abandon the cart our backpacks have food, water,shelter ect. I'll be carrying my rifle and extra mags for it, but I won't be decked out like some mall ninja or a Seal on a mission.
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:55 PM
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I agree with planning and contingencies. It all goes out the window when SHTF for real, but if you have done dry runs, you can at least find some holes to make your life easier when it really counts..

Real scenario:

I was working on a project to re-purpose a former nuclear bomb shelter for the private sector. This location happens to be within 10 miles of a Nuclear power plant...

snipped to save space, see above.

Take from it what you will.
I can relate, but with example of how practice and forethought play in.

A couple years ago while at work around lunch time the power dropped. Okay, nothing new. Then immediately the phones dropped, internet and all cell towers in the area went down. So immediately the radios came out. Within the first ten minutes we established several things. Every one of our people who were in radio range or repeater range were checking in and standing by. Local dispatch was a complete wreck operating on emergency power and no clue what happened. Local emergency services were equally blank and trying to establish radio communications with neighboring counties to reroute 911. It obviously was not an emp because basic electronics were unaffected and vehicles were running, so someone or something had cut all power and communication besides radio and off-grid repeater units that covered a large but unknown area of coverage. And lastly, 99% of the population were outside wandering around and main roads were quickly clogging up from people at dead traffic lights that couldn't figure out what to do.

Ten minutes later we were all in motion to our primary locations. Within an hour all our people were where they were supposed to be, monitoring communication, and checking in at the designated intervals while making the predetermined preparations for the next stages of the primary plan. In the meantime, all area emergency services were overwhelmed, the outage cause was still not identified, and was at least several counties in area. Three hours after that, the cause was identified. A road crew out in the middle of nowhere had managed to cut a fiber optic trunk line and underground power line that tripped everything for several counties. Power was back by midnight, the fiber optic line took several days.

What was learned was that the work and preparing my people had spent had proved effective under the conditions we found ourselves facing. What we also confirmed was that local emergency services were caught with their pants around their ankles.
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Old 03-10-2016, 04:49 PM
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You made the case it was not needed, yet you have it.
You like to paraphrase while changing content. I never said anything is never needed. I said, proper planning and leaving before things get bad can keep you out of armed conflict because you aren't where the conflict is when it happens. I said my kit includes no tactical gear. I don't own anything camo except a shotgun case I won last weekend in a drawing. I have no surplus anything. I think waiting until things are dangerous is way too late to be bugging out and can be avoided in most situations. If my home is going to possibly be lost I am taking my grandfather's rifle and my father's shotgun.
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:41 PM
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I keep coming back to what scenarios do you see as having a reasonable chance of happening that you feel the need to go heavy with ammo when on foot bugging out with only your wife and kids? Keep in mind I'm talking reasonable not a situation where you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. I find it interesting that though I asked the question a few times now noone has really responded.


I wonder what two well armed people think of each other if they run into each other on a empty rural dirt road? Is the chance of a misunderstanding the reason you feel the need to go heavy on ammo?
Ill try and address my opinion on this:

If a race riot moves towards your neighborhood, you may have to leave and come heavy. Probably in a car, but if you hit a roadblock and have to go on foot. I wouldnt want to face an unruly mob with only 2 magazines.

Also when it comes to food, people will panic. Lets say the trains stop running. Grocery stores will be empty in under 3 days. People will start beating eachother senseless for the last box of twinkies. If you have food and can hunker down all the better, but if you have to hit the roads, youd want to be armed.

Personally, a pistol just isnt the same as a rifle. Its sure better then a knife, but if your enemy has a rifle, you need a rifle period.

As for running into somone else well armed and what can follow, thats what greyman is about. I carry a hoody in my GHB to cover my plate carrier, pistol hides in the front pocket. I also have an ak pistol in a backpack. Its technically a pistol and can legally be a concealed carry weapon with permit so no laws are broken. It stays in the backpack with the bandolier. It only comes out if I get pinned down and need more than a pistol to get out. Unless there was an armed occupying force in the AO, there is no reaon to walk down the street with a rifle in my hands...thats a good way to get shot for no reason. I also dont see a walking dead scenario where it would be common to walk down the street with a rifle. If society is breaking down, anyone who sees you with a rifle, including police will consider you a threat. Instead if you have a hoody and backpack and are running down the street, they may just let you by.


Run, duck, hide, thats how your survive.
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:51 PM
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I Then immediately the phones dropped, internet and all cell towers in the area went down. So immediately the radios came out. Within the first ten minutes we established several things. Every one of our people who were in radio range or repeater range were checking in and standing by. Local dispatch was a complete wreck operating on emergency power and no clue what happened. Local emergency services were equally blank and trying to establish radio communications with neighboring counties to reroute 911.

... And lastly, 99% of the population were outside wandering around and main roads were quickly clogging up from people at dead traffic lights that couldn't figure out what to do.

What was learned was that the work and preparing my people had spent had proved effective under the conditions we found ourselves facing. What we also confirmed was that local emergency services were caught with their pants around their ankles.
Comms are so important amd often overlooked. Emergency services are a mess directly after an event and without am/fm radios and transceivers, you are in the dark amd unable to organize. After the 2004 Hurricane season I got a ham radio. Ive been through a few hurricanes and lost all phones, cell, internet, power, etc for extended times, so after the first, I fixed that problem.

Since a hurricane was expected society didnt break down. But on the roads and in the grocery stores it did. With no stop lights everyone was out for themselves. People were vicious hoarding all the food they could at stores that were open. Even business were price gouging on gas, camping supplies, etc. Frankly everyone was also is a state of shock and not thinking clearly and the mix was there for disaster, but luckily, civility prevailed.

Ive seen it one too many times. In small scale issue, society doesnt break down, but when it affects several counties, you are on your own for a while. The bigger the event, the more self reliant and the longer you will have to be.
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