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Old 08-24-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
The Catholics are going to say their Apocrypha is a MUST or the Bible isn't complete. They'll offer their reasons. The Orthodox will insist that their extra 13 books is essential and they'll list their reasons. Then there are lots of existing studies as to why the non-traditionalist, Sola Scriptura Christians will explain in detail why the 66 books were chosen and the rest rejected. People will take it or leave it.

I've read some of those studies and they made sense to me. They may not make sense to you. The bottom line is that a person can learn Christ and His teachings using the 66 book version of the Bible. I think that's an awesome thing. You may not. But if we really want to be picky ... we could also add the book of Jasher, the book of Enoch, the book of Jubilees, and probably a lot more to the Bible as well. But are they necessary? Who gets to say?
These things used to be decided by councils of all of the bishops in the Church. That's how the original - pre-Reformation Bible was assembled. Nevertheless, I do believe that a person can learn about Christ and His teaching from the Protestant Bible too. There is some light which may be shed on Christian thought and practices by the other books too, which may be helpful to the faithful. The whole Church thought so - until Luther.
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Old 08-24-2019, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
It is a matter of historical fact that the Church defined the Bible.
Can it be proven that the church which held the Council of Hippo in 390 A.D. was the same church which is now known as the Roman Catholic Church?
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Old 08-24-2019, 10:20 PM
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Can it be proven that the church which held the Council of Hippo in 390 A.D. was the same church which is now known as the Roman Catholic Church?

"The Roman Catholic Church traces its history to Jesus Christ and the Apostles."
- source Encyclopedia Britannica
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Roman-Catholicism
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Old 08-24-2019, 10:30 PM
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Can it be proven that the church which held the Council of Hippo in 390 A.D. was the same church which is now known as the Roman Catholic Church?
It can be proven that the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church together are the same church which held that council. The Faith is the same.

There has been some theological discussion in the centuries which followed, which defined various concepts, and which dealt with societal changes and rational concepts such as the rise of philosophies, the fall of the Roman Empire, the age of Reason, and the prolonged wait for the return of Christ in glory.

There were many church councils held during those years, mostly to correct heresies which arose again and again. Some of these were the denial of Christ's divinity, the denial that Christ was fully human, the belief that salvation was due to secret knowledge (Gnosticism) and other heretical beliefs.

I am not offering this as "proof." For definitive proof, you would have to research the beliefs of the Church at that time, and compare it to the beliefs handed down by the bishops of the Church through time to the present day. If you undertake a serious study of this - you will find that the present day Church is the same. May God bless you in your journey!!
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
The Catholics are going to say their Apocrypha is a MUST or the Bible isn't complete. They'll offer their reasons. ... Who gets to say?
This subject is fascinating to me, not realizing (or forgetting there are different books in different bibles). For all the Sola Scriptura's out there (including me), what Bible are we talking about; the 79 books of the Orthodox, the 73 books of the Catholic or the 66 books of the Protestant?

I take it as a given that Sola Scripturalists are referring to the 66 Books of the Protestant Bible. (One thing that troubles me about the 66 is that in my study of numerology, 66 is the number for man's pride.)

Still, I have not read the reasons each group defends the quantity of books in their Bible. Do you take it as a given that books excluded are automatically deemed Apocrypha? Like an equation, 1 - x = y, it means that the Orthodox Apocrypha is necessarily smaller than the Catholic, which is smaller than the Protestant Apocrypha.

I always took Apocrypha as potentially containing heretical works. Is this the view the Protestants have of the 13 extra books in the Orthodox Bible?

If I search Amazon for a collection of Apocrypha, which Apocrypha will it be; Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant?

Maybe this is obvious to everyone but is there 100% overlap? That is, all 66 Protestant books are in the Catholic Bible and all 73 Catholic books are in the Orthodox Bible?

I ask this because I once heard the Old Testament is NOT a 100% overlap of the Jewish Torrah. So, when we refer to Scripture, Apocrypha and heretical works, what are we talking about OR is there constant finger pointing in each side adhering to their own selected works? You're a heretic. No, you are the heretic! As both sides seek to burn the other at the stake, literally or theologically?!

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Who gets to say?
One day I hope to read the Apocrypha and decide for myself.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
This subject is fascinating to me, not realizing (or forgetting there are different books in different bibles). For all the Sola Scriptura's out there (including me), what Bible are we talking about; the 79 books of the Orthodox, the 73 books of the Catholic or the 66 books of the Protestant?

I take it as a given that Sola Scripturalists are referring to the 66 Books of the Protestant Bible. (One thing that troubles me about the 66 is that in my study of numerology, 66 is the number for man's pride.)

Still, I have not read the reasons each group defends the quantity of books in their Bible. Do you take it as a given that books excluded are automatically deemed Apocrypha? Like an equation, 1 - x = y, it means that the Orthodox Apocrypha is necessarily smaller than the Catholic, which is smaller than the Protestant Apocrypha.

I always took Apocrypha as potentially containing heretical works. Is this the view the Protestants have of the 13 extra books in the Orthodox Bible?

If I search Amazon for a collection of Apocrypha, which Apocrypha will it be; Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant?

Maybe this is obvious to everyone but is there 100% overlap? That is, all 66 Protestant books are in the Catholic Bible and all 73 Catholic books are in the Orthodox Bible?

I ask this because I once heard the Old Testament is NOT a 100% overlap of the Jewish Torrah. So, when we refer to Scripture, Apocrypha and heretical works, what are we talking about OR is there constant finger pointing in each side adhering to their own selected works? You're a heretic. No, you are the heretic! As both sides seek to burn the other at the stake, literally or theologically?!



One day I hope to read the Apocrypha and decide for myself.
I also find it interesting that there are two books referred to in everyone's Bible that aren't actually in the Bible:

2 Samuel 1:18, "Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher."

Jude 1:14, "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"


I have not been able to find Enoch making the above prophecy anywhere in the Bible. I've only read it in the book of Enoch (which is a very interesting read concerning future prophecy).
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:02 AM
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The Book of Enoch should be in the scriptures. I am less sure of the book of Jubilees and the book of Jasher. The Book of Enoch was written for our times.
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by A_SonofLiberty View Post
The Book of Enoch should be in the scriptures.
You know, I do not suppose all books of God need to be in the Bible. I like to think of the Bible as containing "the best of the best."

Still, I get the feeling Apocrypha is considered somewhat heretical, and therefore, frowned upon my many. In my experience, there is The Curse of Reading. The more one reads the more one wants to read. 25 years ago I had a reading list of ~25 books. Since then, I've read about 250 books and my reading list is longer now than it was then.
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:19 AM
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You know, I do not suppose all books of God need to be in the Bible. I like to think of the Bible as containing "the best of the best."

Still, I get the feeling Apocrypha is considered somewhat heretical, and therefore, frowned upon my many. In my experience, there is The Curse of Reading. The more one reads the more one wants to read. 25 years ago I had a reading list of ~25 books. Since then, I've read about 250 books and my reading list is longer now than it was then.
LOL, I can relate. I have more books on my list than I could possibly read before I die. lol
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:28 AM
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The various churches have gotten far astray from the narrative of Jesus. I believe what Jesus sought was obedience to God to live a good life. That doesn't take a church. Churches have become political organizations with wealth and riches as their means to grow and become powerful. That isn't the life of Jesus as I see it.

The church of Jesus was one of education, to proselytize God to others and teach them His ways. No matter if you believe in Jesus as the son of God or not, what Jesus taught should be lessons for us all. What Jesus taught seems to be something long forgotten.
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:44 AM
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Simple answer is that mankind has to make the most simple complicated to control the masses and gain wealth.

So keep it simple and read your Bible, listen to other and compare their words to the Bible and always remember the Bible is the Word of God but man is flawed. Use several different interpretations of the Bible and compare for a more accurate interpretation .
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:33 PM
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Simple answer is that mankind has to make the most simple complicated to control the masses and gain wealth.

So keep it simple and read your Bible, listen to other and compare their words to the Bible and always remember the Bible is the Word of God but man is flawed. Use several different interpretations of the Bible and compare for a more accurate interpretation .
It's true. Look at the USA. It started out with a simple set of rules and look at how thick the law books are today. We still call it "the greatest nation on earth." We still call it "America." But it's not at all the same nation it was when it was founded and it's only been around for about 243 years or so.

Look at several long standing churches. At one time, the idea of having a woman "pastor" or a homosexual "bishop" wouldn't have crossed anyone's mind but today, we have both. Some "churches" even perform gay "marriages." Things change. Rules change. Man inserts himself in God's business and screws things up. It's why I and many people I know keep going back to the simplicity found in the unchanging, steadfast Words of the Bible.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bill tyler View Post
My question is this-
If Simon Peter is considered the first pope, then how did the church get so far from what he preached on the day of Pentecost?
Simon Peter was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. What has become known as "popes" were actually the bishops of Rome and Alexandria. Some from each city have been able document their Apostolic succession thru in the first millennium.

According to the Acts of the Apostles, Saints Peter and Paul first established the Christian Church in Antioch. If Peter or Paul ever served as bishop of Rome, please provide the NT citation that would tend establish this "fact".
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:50 PM
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One day I hope to read the Apocrypha and decide for myself....
You can decide for yourself right now.

What you can't do is add or subtract anything from the biblical cannon and still have a document which can be called the Bible.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:01 PM
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It's true. Look at the USA...

Look at several long standing churches. At one time, the idea of having a woman "pastor" or a homosexual "bishop" wouldn't have crossed anyone's mind but today, we have both. Some "churches" even perform gay "marriages." Things change. Rules change. Man inserts himself in God's business and screws things up. It's why I and many people I know keep going back to the simplicity found in the unchanging, steadfast Words of the Bible.
Speak for yourself, Sport. No Christian Church (long-standing or otherwise) has ever ordained a woman pastor or homosexual bishop. That's all you.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
Simon Peter was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. What has become known as "popes" were actually the bishops of Rome and Alexandria. Some from each city have been able document their Apostolic succession thru in the first millennium.

According to the Acts of the Apostles, Saints Peter and Paul first established the Christian Church in Antioch. If Peter or Paul ever served as bishop of Rome, please provide the NT citation that would tend establish this "fact".

Here's a good treatise on why we know Peter and Paul were in Rome.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/peters-roman-residency
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:07 PM
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You can decide for yourself right now.

What you can't do is add or subtract anything from the biblical cannon and still have a document which can be called the Bible.
Agreed! No subtracting or ADDing.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:10 PM
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Speak for yourself, Sport. No Christian Church (long-standing or otherwise) has ever ordained a woman pastor or homosexual bishop. That's all you.
In what way does that have to do with me? I'm Sola Scriptura. We wouldn't even consider having a woman or gay pastor. Nor would be consider kissing pictures or the hem of the priest's robe or bowing to a statue or making a spectacle of prayer or ringing bells or ...! We like to stick to Christ and His walk and example.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:13 PM
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Here's a good treatise on why we know Peter and Paul were in Rome.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/peters-roman-residency
I do not dispute that Peter and Paul were in Rome. I fully accept they were both martyred in Rome. That's undisputed Christian tradition. That either served as "bishop" or "pope" is a propriety teaching of later-day bishops of Rome who were angling for political supremacy over the bishops of the other Churches of undeniable Apostolic foundation.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:13 PM
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You can decide for yourself right now.
Sad authoritarians telling others what they can and cannot do.

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What you can't do is add or subtract anything from the biblical cannon and still have a document which can be called the Bible.
Too late.

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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Orthodox Bible (79) > Catholic Bible (73) > Protestant Bible (66)
Is your standard of 'biblical cannon' the 66, 73 or 79 books, all of which are called Bibles?
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