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Old 11-23-2018, 04:19 PM
OldDesertrat OldDesertrat is offline
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Default Gold Is Money



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And so is silver.

Doug Casey on the subject:

https://www.caseyresearch.com/doug-c...gold-is-money/

Note the five points he shows as the "Why". These have been fundamental since before Mr. Aristotle put them in writing.

I'm not old enough to remember when gold was in use as money, but I was an adult when the government's policies on spending forced the loss of intrinsic-value coinage as money. Note that since then, the cost of living has risen beyond all reason and the quality of life--as to affordability--has notably declined.

If the government is all that rational, competent and caring about consumer price inflation over time, then where in (bleep) is my cuppa kawfee for a nickel?

Anybody remember first class postage at four cents? A penny box of matches?
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Old 11-23-2018, 04:39 PM
benson56 benson56 is online now
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All the gold in the world won't help a guy if he doesn't have access to food, water, shelter.
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Old 11-23-2018, 04:46 PM
fistfulladirt fistfulladirt is offline
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Gold was money.
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Old 11-23-2018, 04:55 PM
tractorfarmer123 tractorfarmer123 is offline
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I don't think there is enough gold in the world to use as currency. I am fine with paper if it's backed. And with all the fake gold, I would run out of testing acid. For me, going to the store and getting a candy bar reminds me that every day it is worth less.

But the food and water part, that is where I would rely on having a bit of gold just in case. If anyone has extra of anything, they are going to want something for it, and most people will have nothing. You can only carry and store so much food, but there is always going to be space for some gold, just in case. If you are stuck and need to get a ride somewhere, anywhere in the world, some gold would work.
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Old 11-23-2018, 06:51 PM
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It wasn't government that led to the move away from the use of gold as money but economic growth. That growth necessitated larger amounts of gold to be extracted and moved around, and it was too impractical and even dangerous to do so. That's why merchants decided to store them in banks and use bank notes instead. This has been going on for hundreds of years.

Since banks were never scrutinized (as merchants did not want anyone else to know how much gold they had) and more gold was needed to finance businesses (which meant banks could lend the gold stored in banks using bank notes, and thus issue more bank notes than there was gold), then it became a matter of time before bank notes were no longer backed by gold.

Today, the value of gold remains essentially--money, which is essentially a promissory note whose worth is dependent on what surplus goods are available. Apart from jewelry, dental filling, and certain chemical and equipment applications, it has little practical value.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:36 PM
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I understand the lessons from history, but something has to be said for these new conditions never present in history.

For example, we live in a world now where paper money dominates.. A world where the strength of that paper money is not determined by its value or store of gold, but by the strength of the government who's issuing the paper.

What happens when inflationary fiat finally decays and goes bust?

Will it be a race to old world values and its metal money?.. Not in this technetronic era.

As much as I loathe it, digital currency and blockchain tech has been developed and conditioned to be the perfect solution for when giant slates of worldwide debt is forced to be wiped to rescue from apocalyptic fallout.

All that needs to happen is for governments to adopt the idea and create the system, which they will, cleaving the gold and silver sentiment and permanently dismissing it to industry.

Hope I'm wrong!
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:41 PM
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Money is what the seller will accept.

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Time to repeal the 17th.
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Old 11-24-2018, 09:26 AM
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What dominates is not even paper money but numbers in hard drives. Only a fraction of money consists of paper bills and coins because even these are impractical for large transactions. (Try buying, say, a building using paper money.)

Governments merely act as guarantors when it comes to fiat currency. The actual strength of money lies in the ability of private corporations to extract resources and use energy to create goods and services. The surplus of these goods and services determine the value of money, whether numbers in hard drives, paper, or even gold.

Thus, money, whether digital, paper, or metal, is not a store of value but a promissory note backed by goods and services available. What will make it worthless (including gold) is a decline in resources and energy available, and what will cause that will involve a combination of a resource crunch and environmental damage, something that no amount of money can reverse.
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Old 11-24-2018, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fistfulladirt View Post
Gold was money.
I suspect it will be again, most likely very violently.

Timing is elusive though.
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Old 11-25-2018, 08:32 AM
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In about half the world's population--notably Asia--gold is treated as money, if that's what's offered in trade. Note also that the center of gravity of the world's wealth is moving eastward, toward the Gulf States and Asia.

Jim Rickards has played with the numbers. If gold were $10,000/ounce, China could back its currency 40% with gold. So could a few other countries. If such occurred, the US $ would be toast.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDesertrat View Post
I'm not old enough to remember when gold was in use as money, but I was an adult when the government's policies on spending forced the loss of intrinsic-value coinage as money. Note that since then, the cost of living has risen beyond all reason and the quality of life--as to affordability--has notably declined.

If the government is all that rational, competent and caring about consumer price inflation over time, then where in (bleep) is my cuppa kawfee for a nickel?

Anybody remember first class postage at four cents? A penny box of matches?
… the postman came twice a day?

The Little Golden Book “Lassie and Her Day in the Sun” has a postman making a morning delivery seeing Lassie asleep by the box. Lassie has a characteristic full day of activities. However, the postman makes his second mail delivery and sees the dog “still sleeping“ at the mailbox. To the postman, Lassie has had a lazy day in the sun …
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Old 11-25-2018, 04:21 PM
fistfulladirt fistfulladirt is offline
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Or the milkman, delivering to the door in glass containers. Or party lines. Payphones. B/W TV.
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Old 11-25-2018, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDesertrat View Post
In about half the world's population--notably Asia--gold is treated as money, if that's what's offered in trade. Note also that the center of gravity of the world's wealth is moving eastward, toward the Gulf States and Asia.

Jim Rickards has played with the numbers. If gold were $10,000/ounce, China could back its currency 40% with gold. So could a few other countries. If such occurred, the US $ would be toast.
Much of currency in Asia does not involve the use of gold but similar to that of OECD countries: paper bills, coins, financial instruments.

The world's wealth, which essentially consists of numbers in hard drives, started moving to the Gulf States not because of the use of gold but because of oil and the formation of OPEC. It started moving to Asia not because of the use of gold but because of the rise of export-oriented, protectionist economies (e.g., Japan, the Asian tigers, later China and Vietnam). Most of them fall under the rubric of BRICS, Next Eleven, etc., generally over forty emerging markets with lots of young people eager to do business and join the global middle class.

The effects of peak oil plus increased engagement in the use of their own currencies plus SDRs is what's threatening the petrodollar.
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Old 11-25-2018, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ralfy View Post
It wasn't government that led to the move away from the use of gold as money but economic growth ....
Since banks were never scrutinized (as merchants did not want anyone else to know how much gold they had) and more gold was needed to finance businesses (which meant banks could lend the gold stored in banks using bank notes, and thus issue more bank notes than there was gold), then it became a matter of time before bank notes were no longer backed by gold.
Ralfy. Ralfy. Ralfy. You are persistent in spreading the fiat currency propaganda.

What you write about is plain corruption, having nothing to do with inherent necessity to move away from a medium of exchange that also is a store of value.

In short, fiat currency is a form of governmental theft, a form of taxation. This is because it is inherently inflationary, robbing the buying power of yesterday's labor.

Bank Notes are not money, not even those "backed by" gold or silver. Gold or silver is money. Bank notes, or receipts, simply facilitated trade. FRN (Federal Reserve Notes) require the force of government to make people accept them in lieu of money.

Like Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Standard Oil, if FRN were good for the people, you would not have to use governmental force to make people use it.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by benson56 View Post
All the gold in the world won't help a guy if he doesn't have access to food, water, shelter.
I know of no one who says "I will pile up gold, so I will have no need to prepare for food, water, and shelter" rather they (we) are inclusive vs exclusive as prep ALL the above.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDesertrat View Post
And so is silver.

Doug Casey on the subject:

https://www.caseyresearch.com/doug-c...gold-is-money/

Note the five points he shows as the "Why". These have been fundamental since before Mr. Aristotle put them in writing.

I'm not old enough to remember when gold was in use as money, but I was an adult when the government's policies on spending forced the loss of intrinsic-value coinage as money. Note that since then, the cost of living has risen beyond all reason and the quality of life--as to affordability--has notably declined.

If the government is all that rational, competent and caring about consumer price inflation over time, then where in (bleep) is my cuppa kawfee for a nickel?

Anybody remember first class postage at four cents? A penny box of matches?
There has never been enough gold and silver for the common man to have money. Aristotle understood this, which is why he preferred to define money as stated in the OP.

Aristotle wrote that some while they are if fact human some are “of someone else”. Aristotle thought of the common man as natural slaves by their existence and characteristics. The common man is a natural slave of society by their interactions of their masters. The common man is a natural slave by their main features of pieces of property, tools for actions, and belonging to others.

Aristotle wrote: “those who are as different [from other men] as the soul from the body or man from beast—and they are in this state if their work is the use of the body, and if this is the best that can come from them—are slaves by nature. For them it is better to be ruled in accordance with this sort of rule, if such is the case for the other things mentioned.”

Money is anything generally accepted as a mode of exchange for goods and services. Gold and silver are commodities. They have been used as money and have failed every time.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:42 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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The Coinage Act of 1792 passed on 2 April and the follow act of 8 May of that same year were two of many attempts by Congress’ to meet the Constitutional responsibility “to coin money, regulate the value thereof and of foreign coin…” Understanding it makes it easy to understand the fallacy promoted by Ron Paul that gold is money. It also makes it clear why the founding fathers did not intend that the word “coin” meant that of gold or silver.

The May 8th act provided for the copper cent proof the founding fathers knew something other than gold and silver is money. The fact these acts passed and have been updated and replaced as necessary proves the US Constitution left open the possibility for other commodities to be used as money this includes paper.

The act defines proportional value. Fifteen (15) units of pure silver were deemed equal to one (1) unit of pure gold. Standard gold was deemed 11 parts of pure gold and 1 part of a silver-copper alloy. Standard silver was defined as 1485 parts pure silver and 179 parts cooper alloy. The silver content of a dollar was to be equal to one-fifth of the silver in a British pound and four (4) British shillings of the day.

Accounting (money of account) was to be in terms of dollars, “dismes” (tenth of dollars), cents (100th of dollars) and milles (1,000th of a dollar). This is why property taxes are expressed in millage today.

A person was to be able to bring his gold or silver to be minted into coins “free of expense.” This was a way of increasing the money supply without the government actually buying gold and silver bullion.

The consequence of the 1792 acts was that many US coins were taken overseas for melting. This resulted in the 1834 act that adjusted their weight and sizes, which had to be done again in 1853.

Money is a commodity that is generally accepted as a medium for exchanging goods and services. If it stops being generally accepted it is no longer money regardless of what it is made of. If money or former money is made of something with intrinsic value it will maintain whatever intrinsic value that particular commodity is valued at given a point in time.

This is why the US Silver Eagles today have a spot price $14 but a legal tender value of $1. This legal tender vs. intrinsic value was even true of the Coin Acts of 1792. The coins authorized by those acts did not have the same proportional intrinsic value in terms of the legal tender they were minted. So the only difference between a paper US Dollar and a Silver Dollar is in its intrinsic value. We all know that. This makes a paper US dollar no less Constitutional than the relationship of a $10 gold piece to 10 silver dollars to 1000 copper pennies. All of these legal tender values were set by fiat in 1792. Their intrinsic value varied then as they do now. If the Founding Fathers could/did set the intrinsic value of 1,000 pennies made of 17.1 grams ea. of copper equal to 10 dollars of 27 grams ea. of silver equal to one $10 coin of 17.5 grams of gold in 1792.

Making paper money legal tender today is not un-Constitutional.

Congress has the authority to, "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;" I see nothing there prohibiting issuing paper money as a representation of coined money. You can take your paper money and exchange it for coins.

Is it unconstitutional for the Federal government to write a check if it owes you money? The US Constitution means what it says. I think Roger Sherman tried to get inserted into the Constitution that paper money could not be issued and failed. Yet he signed it anyway. So he must have given in contrary to his preferences.

The US Constitution means what it says. It does not mean what this man and that man and another man said he intended it to say or mean. Using the words of the US Constitution and Acts passed in accordance with the US Constitution prove paper money is Constitutional.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:38 PM
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Or the milkman, delivering to the door in glass containers. Or party lines. Payphones. B/W TV.
We have gone back to tv antennas so you just never know huh?
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:54 AM
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We have gone back to tv antennas so you just never know huh?
No. Who is this we you speak of?
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:54 AM
Florida Jean Florida Jean is online now
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I know people with exterior TV attennas. I use an interior one -- if that is hard to understand, I don't use cable. I get enough over-the-air stations.
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