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Old 05-31-2020, 02:20 PM
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How is far less expansion "best" as opposed to best expansion?????
If the ammunition is perfectly placed in penetration, the dramatic difference in expansion would = Best

Best expansion, by far, and perfect penetration = Winchester Ranger T 230 grain
Golden Saber, not even close

Here we have fact to consider within the context of the testing protocols
Another consideration is the Bell Curve of critical thinking when it comes to opinions that are on the bad end of the Bell Curve
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Old 05-31-2020, 02:23 PM
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OP, I've tested many of the defense loads in .45 ACP, all had poor expansion due to the low velocity. They are more for show.
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Old 05-31-2020, 02:32 PM
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Memo to FBI/Lucky Gunner:

Slackercruster knows far more than you to his extensive controlled testing
Please share with us your testing protocols and make sure you get the extremely important data to the FBI

The biggest problem is that Lucky Gunner used sythentic ballistic "gel"
As opposed to real-deal porcine organic calibrated ballistic gelatin

The Clear Ballistics Gel has a bullet snap back
It gives numbers that are not exactly aligned with organic gelatin

You really cannot rely on the synthetic get as it relates to the FBI standards
You get less expansion with the synthetic and more penetration
This article tells the whole story
https://www.policeone.com/police-pro...kEYB93TAd5o6J/
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Old 05-31-2020, 03:25 PM
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Here is some testing from Brass Fetcher comparing various cartridges
Among the findings are that
9mm was four inches deeper in syn gel
.357 Sig was the same penetration

So can you rely on Lucky Gunner it depends
There is really no way to tell. It might be exactly right on, or not
They did use heavy cloth cover to smoke-out the the hollow-points that plug up and over expand
The penetration could have been the same, but most likely bullets penetrated deeper in the syn gel

But if the Ranger T .45 ACP expanded to an inch, it should expand more and it do as it turns out

So I found a test in organic gel which confirms the Lucky Gunner testing to be dead nuts on
With its syn gel test
Another case where the syn gel shows the same results as the organic

It also confirms the dominance of the Ranger T
As the best performing .45 ACP ammunition

https://youtu.be/U-K9krp7fnE
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:12 PM
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Critical defense is good stuff
Being an old fart, hydra shok is still in the gun
And plain old Winchester ranger also shoots well
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:55 PM
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230 grain moly coat black lead it will get the job done.whats the old saying everything falls to the ball.
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuriss View Post
Well then I guess I will spend $500 to test out 25 different boxes of ammo.

Or

I can ask some people that have tested out many different types to see what they like and start from there.
It's not necessary to continue testing once you find one or two that work.

Quote:
This concept is not a hard one.
That's exactly why there's no need to overthink it.
The gun will tell you what it likes.
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:36 PM
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Honestly, arguing over 45acp hollow points is somewhat pointless. In the end, it is still a handgun, and as such is not going to remove the soul from your attacker, no matter the load. I’ve seen the 230 +P Gold Dot in action before. I’ve also seen a 230 ball. The difference in result was that the bad guy who got shot with the GD only needed to be shot 4 times to stop what he was doing, as opposed to the guy with the ball needing 5. Notice I said stop what they were doing. Both were conscious, just dissuaded.

It should also be noted that other’s experiences may vary. But from my experience, when it comes to 45, I’d suggest just picking a bullet that feeds reliably and don’t worry about it. Hollow points may expand, but a 45 isn’t getting any smaller.
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat In The Woods View Post
Honestly, arguing over 45acp hollow points is somewhat pointless. In the end, it is still a handgun, and as such is not going to remove the soul from your attacker, no matter the load. Iíve seen the 230 +P Gold Dot in action before. Iíve also seen a 230 ball. The difference in result was that the bad guy who got shot with the GD only needed to be shot 4 times to stop what he was doing, as opposed to the guy with the ball needing 5. Notice I said stop what they were doing. Both were conscious, just dissuaded.

It should also be noted that otherís experiences may vary. But from my experience, when it comes to 45, Iíd suggest just picking a bullet that feeds reliably and donít worry about it. Hollow points may expand, but a 45 isnít getting any smaller.
Precisely.
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Old 06-01-2020, 05:21 PM
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Over the past winter, I wanted to find a combination of defensive ammo and mags that would run reliably in a couple of different 1911s, which isn't necessarily an easy undertaking. Quite surprisingly, Ammo Inc./Jesse James Black Label 230gr JHP worked with both guns in a variety of mags. Sig Sauer Elite 200gr JHP came in second, as it had a hiccup with one particular mag (Wilson Combat 8-rounder) but that's easy enough to avoid. In an old Ruger P90, I use Magtech First Defense Bonded 230gr because it runs reliably.

I know I've tried Hornady American Gunner XTP 185gr JHP as well, but couldn't get my hands on enough of it to test enough in multiple guns, for a reasonable price anyway.
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve marshall View Post
At Lucky Gunner, who attempts to duplicate FBI protocol.
No... they don't.
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Old 06-02-2020, 04:00 AM
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And for all of us who don't have the Secret Decoder ring..
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by steve marshall View Post
And for all of us who don't have the Secret Decoder ring..
Just eat the cereal.

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Old 06-03-2020, 05:17 PM
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Since readily accessible, tabulated data is difficult to find, at best, I'll use Lucky Gunner's work. Thank you very much. THE reason we are to use FBI data is that it is reasonably consistent. Not that gelatin is perfectly relatable to living flesh and bones but that you can
draw fairly good correlation to actual use. Golden Saber ammunition is comparable in power and penetration to most other defense rounds and more importantly has worked in every pistol I've tried it in.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper708 View Post
The only way to "narrow the field" is by testing ammo in your pistol.

What works in another might not be best for yours, and the differences in terminal ballistics are negligible.
agreed. a quality defense hollow point in any grain from 185 on up will perform well, the variable is your pistol. I do not shoot +P loads in my .45s. I used to carry lighter loads for my short barrel pistols versus full size, but anymore the difference in velocity and expansion is fairly negligible.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve marshall View Post
Since readily accessible, tabulated data is difficult to find, at best, I'll use Lucky Gunner's work. Thank you very much. THE reason we are to use FBI data is that it is reasonably consistent. Not that gelatin is perfectly relatable to living flesh and bones but that you can
draw fairly good correlation to actual use. Golden Saber ammunition is comparable in power and penetration to most other defense rounds and more importantly has worked in every pistol I've tried it in.
and you can often get it for a good deal. I have stocked up on several different home defense loads when they were on sale. I have used golden saber for years, and have found it to be generally a quality load.
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Old 06-06-2020, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve marshall View Post
Since readily accessible, tabulated data is difficult to find, at best, I'll use Lucky Gunner's work. Thank you very much. THE reason we are to use FBI data is that it is reasonably consistent. Not that gelatin is perfectly relatable to living flesh and bones but that you can
draw fairly good correlation to actual use.
While we're in agreement about the FBI testing protocol, to say that someone follows it, when for starters, if they don't even use the same testing medium, isn't zackly accurate.

.
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Old 06-06-2020, 02:09 AM
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AND as long as consistent testing in some media, whether FBI duplicate or not, can be readily accessed. Since FBI, Lucky Gunner and/or Joe Blow from Kokomo aren't testing in live animal or human flesh, we have nothing to gauge results but consistency and accessibility. LG has published results and I've never seen tabulated FBI data, only anecdotal, guess where I'll go for information?
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Old 06-09-2020, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve marshall View Post
AND as long as consistent testing in some media, whether FBI duplicate or not, can be readily accessed. Since FBI, Lucky Gunner and/or Joe Blow from Kokomo aren't testing in live animal or human flesh, we have nothing to gauge results but consistency and accessibility. LG has published results and I've never seen tabulated FBI data, only anecdotal, guess where I'll go for information?



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