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is a .22 lr , 25 acp , 32 et al better than a sharp stick or a rock?

23K views 269 replies 76 participants last post by  cbl51 
#1 ·
I seem to recall the late Col. Cooper penning a piece where he felt that a stout stick or a rock might indeed be superior to one of these 'mouse guns' and he recommended shooting 'goblins' in the eye should one only have a mouse gun at hand.

Perhaps if one had some moderate level of hand to hand skills this might be the case. That said nobody really has much in the way of gun skills anymore to say nothing of hand to hand ....

Thoughts
 
#35 ·
About 25 yrs ago, I spotted a funny looking Ruger revolver at my local gun shop. It was a 3" stainless SP101 model chambered in 32 HR. It took me about 10 seconds to decide I absolutely must own that gun.

At first I struggled to figgure why I now owned a mouse gun. I bought it thinking it would make a good trapline gun, but the truth was I had not set a line of traps since high school. The little Ruger became my Kit Gun, and I ended up carrying it with me every time I went hiking, camping, or just fishing on the river.
I also ended up using it to butcher livestock, and euthenize problem animals.

Federal make a nice 85g hollowpoint load in 32 HR, but mostly I shoot handloads with 100g cast lead. My little Ruger really eats these up, shooting 2-3" groups at 25 yds, which was the limit of my eyesight back then.

When I used my 32 on small game, it performed better than a 22 LR or 22 mag. The critter would drop and bleed out with a single well placed hit, and very little meat was damaged. When I used it on bigger game, or when butchering a domestic sheep or goat, I had to be very precise. Miss the kill spot by even a fraction of an inch, and the critter would squeal in pain.

In my opinion, mouse guns are not well suited for defense because it is unlikely to get a nice clean shot at your assailent. If you persist on shooting him as you both run, twist, and grapple, all you will accomplish is empty your gun.

As many here know I am now retired and I live in a remote area of the Ozarks. My 32 Kit Gun stays in my hydration pack, and I carry it all over, along with a rain poncho, flashlight, emergency gear, and a small first aid kit. It is small and light, and more accurate than I am, but it is not much of a fight stopper.

I still carry a magnum revolver, or a major power pistol for social work.
 
#36 ·
My father used a S&W .32 Long with three inch barrel as a trap line gun in the late 1930s. He could load for it, and it handled killing the bigger fur critters much better than a .22 rimfire did. His experience is what prompted me to pick up the little Mauser.

I've shot that pistol for 22 years now. It still drops five rounds onto a playing card at 40 steps, though I've had to go to a sandbag to get those groups. Back before Y2k, I bought 500 cases. I'm still using out of that pile. I'm 69. And I fully expect the little Mauser to outlast me... Not bad for a century old gun...
 
#39 ·
This subject has been beat to death in earlier threads.

Bottom line, no rimfire is as reliable as center-fire.

The .32 ACP with Euro-CIP loads is proven defense floor level. With handloads in a strong, steel-framed gun you can drive 90-grain bullet at 900 fps which approximates .380 ACP or .32-20 energy. The recipe is Hornady .309", 90-grain XTP hollowpoint with 3 grains of AutoComp
 
#40 ·
“C]arry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you.[3]“

Jeff Cooper.

I don’t want to be shot with a 22/25 or 32.

I’d rather have a 32 than a 25 or 22lr. More reliable.

I think modern ammunition could make the 32 and 380 more useful. Sadly none has really been developed for the 32 and little for the 380.

I carry a 9mm or 357 mag. Unless I’m in big predator country then it’s 10mm.
 
#41 ·
Well the Colonel also had nothing good to say about the 9mm and Glocks.
So he may have been wrong about several things hardware related.

For a while I had a French made Walther PP .32 that I cut for an MMC mini adjustable rear sight. Unfortunately I let it get away for something with more BB's and less class or usefulness.
As a trail gun it had few equals in the small game category and dispatched a number of larger critters.

When I didn't feel like packing a 1911 or Beretta 92, the little PP went along. Loaded with silvertips, it was all I needed most of the time.
Had it been a PPK, I would still have it.

The chances of me getting in a "gunfight" are low to say the least, and considering what I do now, I would be better off having a CPR mask in a quick draw holster.
Were I in a high risk area or occupation, larger would be a consideration but I am not. Wyoming ain't high on the terrorists target list, sagebrush don't make a good target.

And much as I like those instructors who preach carrying a full size glock and 3-4 magazines, it works great for someone who goes and grabs a frappachinno on the way to work at the range right after waxing their shaved scalp.
It doesn't work for the housewife/zumba instructor in spandex with 5 kids in tow, or the c-store manager or the maintenance guy crawling around stuff.

Mouse guns are certainly better than a sharp stick or a rock.
 
#42 ·
, I would be better off having a CPR mask in a quick draw holster.
.

And much as I like those instructors who preach carrying a full size glock and 3-4 magazines, it works great for someone who goes and grabs a frappachinno on the way to work at the range right after waxing their shaved scalp.
It doesn't work for the housewife/zumba instructor in spandex with 5 kids in tow, or the c-store manager or the maintenance guy crawling around stuff.

Mouse guns are certainly better than a sharp stick or a rock.
Glock also makes compacts and subcompacts, which with a simple mag change nearly reach the capabilities of the full size.

And: I've been carrying a folding CPR mask in my pocket or on my keychain for about 15 years now (they last 1-2 years till they need to be replaced If you don't use them) I have used a couple.
 
#43 ·
Be very careful about quoting Jeff Cooper. He was a P.T. Barnum level showman that embroidered his military background.

First off, he was aLt. Col, not a Col. Second, he never had a bit of any combat experience in his life. Did any o you ever research his background????

He spent the entire WW2 onboard the U.S.S. Pennsylvania, in charge of the small arms locker. The whole war. He never led men into any combat, never was a LEO, never fired a single shot in anger. After WW2, he was a high school and Junior college history teacher. When Korea broke out he went bak in, and was a small arms instructor.

Somewhere along the way, the Marine's decided he didn't pull his weight as they "declined to continue his service." Anyone familiar with the Marines and armed service in general, knows that officers that have not proved their worth. or screwed something up, or are just dead wood, get this treatment. They didn't do anything bad to get a Court Martial, but this is the services way of telling you that your not wanted and don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

Cooper then was hanging around California trying to compete in pistol events, until a shooter/champion by the name of Ray Chapman showed him how to do it. It was after being mentored by Chapman that Cooper bought the land and started 'Thunder Ranch' promoting himself as the gun guru that is God's compliment to the 1911. Then he started writing articles for Guns and Ammo and the rest is history of a self promoted showman with a greatly exaggerated background.

The only things Cooper even shot was the game animals on expensive safaris that he poised with. Yes, he was a good shot. Yes he was a good hunter. No, he was not an experienced combat shot. Find me any example of Jeff Cooper in combat, and I don't mean having coffee below deck someplace while the U.S.S. Pennsylvania shelled Japanese shore positions several miles inland. And if he was sooo good, why did the U.S, Marines show him the door?

If you want to really quote someone, try Jim Cirillo. A NYCPD officer with many years experience on the famed stakeout squad. These ere the guys who looked for gunfights with armed felons. He's documented putting 11 felons under the daisies in violent shootouts. Some others survived with injuries and went to the state prison in Attica to serve out sentences for attempted armed robbery. Or Bill Jordan, who was a mud marine in WW2, and put in 30 years on the U.S. Border patrol and survived shootouts with drug runners and other criminals.

Jeff Cooper is not one to quote. He never survived a single gunfight because he was never in a single gunfight.
 
#48 ·
I did that for years, a number of those with a badge hooked right next to it. The difference? As previously stated, working in a place where getting "outed" would mean the loss of a not inconsequential amount of money. As to the normal job, I tried several real guns, including a G23 cut down to use 27 mags. Guess what, they snagged on stuff as I was working, crawling around and in various pieces of machinery.
I have carried a G26 or G27 in my pocket (with (2) full sized mags in my back pocket) every day for about 13 years now. It "snaggs" on nothing.
(My second pistol varries, but as you said "it is always there." )

Can't and won't. A student who came to one of my classes brought a Beretta .22 Short that her father had left her. Its what she has and can afford. I traded some of her professional seamstress work for the class fee. Can she afford better? Not really,
Bull****. She could of traded that little Beretta for a older Rossi .38 (not a great gun, but the old ones were direct copies of a Smith 36 and are definitely 'better') probably could of got a box of ammo thrown in If she gave them the story.


I reject your fiction.
 
#50 ·
I have carried a G26 or G27 in my pocket (with (2) full sized mags in my back pocket) every day for about 13 years now. It "snaggs" on nothing.
(My second pistol varries, but as you said "it is always there." )


Bull****. She could of traded that little Beretta for a older Rossi .38 (not a great gun, but the old ones were direct copies of a Smith 36 and are definitely 'better') probably could of got a box of ammo thrown in If she gave them the story.


I reject your fiction.
Bovine excrement yourself.
That gun was a gift. But I guess some people place more value on sentiment than others. And I did offer to trade it for an LC9, she refused. And she was good with the little Beretta.

You can carry a G27 and two full size mags in your pockets, good for you. Guess my backside ain't big enough for that.
Never had it snag? Good for you, other people have different experiences. Try crawling around inside an air handler 30' above the floor.

I acknowledge and reject your opinion because it doesn't fit my reality.
At least until I can change situations.
 
#49 ·
Hey, for some of us, the full size is always there, and just as easily as the mouse gun, most of the time anyway.

Id prefer not to compromise on some things, if at all possible, and this is one of those cases. As I said, I never had any problem carrying a full-sized gun, and more often than not, in NPE's (where I would be arrested and fired if caught), and never had any issues or problems. Never once got outed, and had many a close, face to face conversation with a cop, and even their chief, in his office, while wearing my gun.

If you want to do it, you figure it out. If its to much for you, then do something else. My point here is, the more you go down in size, the more you give up, and that only gets worse, the less you practice and maintain realistic standards. I just think a lot of people dont realize that.

And youve already given up a lot, just by having to rely on a handgun. But, compared to better things, it is something you can have on you most of the time, so it has to do. So, why intentionally just work at making things worse, when its not necessary?
 
#56 ·
I wouldn’t really want to be on the receiving end of any of them.

Personally, I would prefer a 22/ 25/32/ 380 over a sharp stick or a rock. For a thug in a dark alley, I doubt they will stick around once the CCI Velocitor starts flying in their direction.

Now: for serious, “go to war” work, I bring my 9mm. It isn’t as effective as a rifle, but it usually pokes a big hole in the thoracic cavity.

If all I had access to was a 22, I would not be the happiest camper, but I would be better off than if I only had a stick.
 
#62 ·
.32 ACP from a pistol, is comparable in NRG to a .22 LR round from a full length rifle. They are not the most devastating rounds, and I have never been in an armed conflict, but - if I had either of these, and I have both, and someone with a sharp stick or a rock was rushing at me from 30 feet away - I'm confident they would end their rush at about 15 feet as they fell to not get up again.

One thing people forget about with the smaller calibers is they are faster for follow up shots and easier to shoot. I currently carry a full size 9mm Beretta with 15 round mags, but I know I can get rounds at 25 feet away on target faster with my CZ-70 shooting .32 ACP and on target better; but currently I want to carry 15 round mags, and the CZ only holds 8. So, it is all relative.

If one never practices with their .357 Magnum, they are probably better off having a .22 because a hit beats a miss - regardless of caliber every time. A .22 rifle, also is way better at range than a pistol, so - if you had one gun, just to have one, a decent .22 rifle is really where to start.
 
#63 ·
Ordinary .32 ACP 73-grain CIP hardball fired from a typical pocket pistol with 3.4" barrel exceeds the terminal performance of high velocity .22 LR, either solids or hollow-points, as fired from a sporting length rifle barrel of 20 inches. The penetration of .22 LR solids is excellent, the displaced tissue mass is small and energy deposit minimal. .22 LRHPs fail to provides adequate penetration, displaced issue mass is less than .32 ACP hardball and energy deposit is also less. Refer to the graphs calculated by the MacPhearson WTI model, and also examine gelatin traces comparing .32 ACP hardball with .22 LR solid.
 

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#75 ·
.32 acp definitely trumps .22 as mouseguns go.

It's kinda funny how folks will choose a .452 ball round without hesitation, but think a .3125 projectile that penetrates 16"+, won't even be noticed by the intended target....


.
 
#64 ·
Remember, James Bond almost died because he preferred his 25ACP Beretta.
The PPK in 32 ACP was supposed to hit like a hammer! Or words to that effect.
I guess when compared to the little pocket gun it did...
but why not the 380?

On the other hand - I wouldn’t want to be shot with anything
 
#67 ·
Remember, James Bond almost died because he preferred his 25ACP Beretta. The PPK in 32 ACP was supposed to hit like a hammer! Or words to that effect. I guess when compared to the little pocket gun it did... but why not the 380?

On the other hand - I wouldn’t want to be shot with anything
Also remember that James Bond is FICTION@!
 
#65 ·
I like 32 ACP out of some of the smaller old European police surplus pistols with a 3.8 inch barrel. The extra 1/2 inch of barrel changes the ballistics a lot compared to a 3 or 3.4 inch barrel mouse gun. It is one of my favorites to shoot at the range. I'm reasonably confident it would have no issues stopping 1 or 2 people if it needed to - at close range.

In that size pistol, if it was chambered for 380 ACP, it would throw it off and not be as controllable when firing. Sometimes less is more IMHO.
 
#66 ·
Remember," there is no second place winner in a gun fight." However with a little mouse gun you may tie for first place or second place depending upon point of view. I noticed that when I shoot coyotes with 22 mag or 22 hornet, the run off and die but it takes a while.. 22-250 pretty much knocks them down and they stay there. Bringing the analogy up to shooting a bad guy. The mouse gun will kill him, he could do a lot of damage between the shot and death, especially if he was high or on drugs. A larger weapon reduces that chance. While you never know when the stuff will hit the fan, you could get by with the smaller weapon when the chances are low. When not low? 454 casull is a choice.
 
#81 ·
Harry is no longer with us, but I knew him very well, his being a mentor and trainer of mine when I was a new "butterbar." The .32 ACP was not his first choice, but sometimes he was limited to one by circumstances, in which case you dance with the girl you brought.

Harry's first choice, when afforded that opportunity was either two M1911A1 pistols or one .45 pistol paired with a suppressed M3A1 greasegun.
 
#70 ·
The tip up barrel of the smaller Berettas (Bobcat, Tomcat) is a nice feature for those (elderly) who have hand strength issues. Given the recent spate of attacks on the elderly being reported in the news. For them, a rock or sharp stick may be unwieldy and a full sized semi auto too much to handle. So a Bobcat or Tomcat might be just the ticket.
 
#88 ·
The first were issued .380's, switching to .32 when the .380's ran out. Largely ceremonial, since most General's didn't go in harm's way.

Of those that did, some chose something a little larger.







 
#83 ·
I can take a deer, dog or coyote at close distance and at a dead run ducking and diving with .22 long rifle, and do it without great fear of shooting up buildings or rigs etc. While I could use a larger rifle to do the same thing I have to worry about shooting through outbuildings or rigs or "people" etc. A small .22 caliber rifle has it's place and uses. I also use my 20 gauge shotgun for much the same purpose but when I am trying to scare animals out of the building complex area here around the house, again you don't be need to be shooting your stuff up. Now I am not about to go hunting with the .22 or the 20 gauge, but they have their uses.

While my eye and my arm is "amazing" at throwing, I don't stand a chance in hell of killing anything with a rock or a stick....
 
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