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Firearms General Discussion Rifles, pistols, shotguns, scopes, grips and everything in between.

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Old 11-13-2019, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
The point bein that the tactics of every military in the world is to recognize that the 556 is inadequate as a stand alone.



Almost always it's pared with heavier vehicle mounted, and when we went on foot we brought 240's.





The OP recognized the fact in #3, you countered, I did again.



He's wrong though. LAV'S, helps and others can be stopped by 7.62x51 if you know where to hit.
All rifles rounds including the 50bmg are inadequate in that case. After all we use missiles, bombs, 20mm gatling guns, heavy artillery, grenades and countless other things to defeat our opponents. The 5.56 certainly isnt inadequate as an anti-personnel rifle and that has been proven ad nauseam.

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Old 11-13-2019, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulKersey View Post
While a 22lr wonít stop an MRAP. A 22lr rifle with a suppressor, subsonic ammo and night scope will place a round in the brain housing group of an adversary when he sits around the camp fire. If he survives, heíll be a spaz for his remaining years.
Pssst, instant democrat!
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:14 PM
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I was thinking about the vast amount of small arms used in hot Middle East conflict today. Not so much about what other countries equip themselves with.

But yes, the smaller calibers are common issue.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by swamppapa View Post
As I recall back in the Stone Age Winchester made 357 ammo that was intended to defeat light auto armour and body armour. The projectile was conical with a subcaliber tungsten rod.

And there is still black tip 7.62 out there they may be loose projectiles but they are available.

It seems that it isn’t the caliber of the weapon, but the composition of the projectiles. I personally don’t want a pile of DU sitting around my place.
On just about all modern vehicles, 22LR will through and through both doors. Making just about every common caliber just as effective
M885/GreenTip/Steel Core all was designed to penetrate a Russian Steel helmet at 400m
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by InOmaha View Post
Oh well, more people die slow internet deaths in online caliber wars.

Most effective is to burn stuff and blow things up. Direct confrontation with a force that has air superiority typically ends badly.
Exactly you don’t shoot the MRAP. You make sure the MRAP driver knows if he gets to your location before you have time to get away somebody will come to his house and kill him and his family , maybe with a 22lr.

A police state needs police. And police can’t function without the support of the population. You can force a population into submission like East Germany. But an armed population can use threats of retaliation to deter government officials from doing their jobs.
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Old 11-14-2019, 09:53 AM
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I do appreciate the responses. Much to think about. I believe my point stands. Capable arms and ammo is often prohibited or restricted.

You can't, for example go down to your local gun store and purchase a "dangerous/destructive device" such as a 20mm rifle with armor piercing ammo. For that matter, AP ammo is another category that has common restrictions.

It sure ain't to prevent crime, but rather these laws exist to protect government from the citizenry.


But keep in mind, I've never been in the military, and do not have combat experience. So, I'm just an old man with significant technical knowledge, thinking aloud here.
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Old 11-14-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cujet View Post
I do appreciate the responses. Much to think about. I believe my point stands. Capable arms and ammo is often prohibited or restricted.

You can't, for example go down to your local gun store and purchase a "dangerous/destructive device" such as a 20mm rifle with armor piercing ammo. For that matter, AP ammo is another category that has common restrictions.
Most places you can, if they are selling one. You just have to jump through some hoops and wait to get it. But, if you can afford it, and even if you can't, you CAN get it.

I understand what youre getting at, but things really arent that bad, "yet", and at least in "most" places.
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Old 11-14-2019, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuteandfuzzybunnies View Post
Exactly you donít shoot the MRAP. You make sure the MRAP driver knows if he gets to your location before you have time to get away somebody will come to his house and kill him and his family , maybe with a 22lr.

A police state needs police. And police canít function without the support of the population. You can force a population into submission like East Germany. But an armed population can use threats of retaliation to deter government officials from doing their jobs.
This is how the Cartel in Mexico operates. They have tons of money, but likely not more money than the US sends to Mexico every year, or more money than the Mexican Government. What they have is focused brutality which makes it easier for them to control the population, local/state/federal employees and politicians.
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Old 11-14-2019, 10:16 AM
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Isn’t that what the 50 Beowulf is designed for? Breaking engine blocks at checkpoints. I think that it will do a good thump on some bullet resistant glass to be followed up by lighter bullets if necessary. 600 grains is a hell of a thump!
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I understand there are a few states that have "some" restrictions, but the majority of the country doesnt.

States are "supposed" to have more power than the feds, and you have to assume that if they have those restrictions, the people voted for them, and allow them to be in place.

Not that those restrictions arent a violation of peoples rights, thats not in dispute, and why the feds dont step in/up there is another issue, but for the most part, barring some sort of across the board ban on things, you can still own pretty much anything you want, in "most" places.

Maybe if more people actually knew what the laws actually are (and when it comes to firearms, from a lot of the responses you get, its pretty obvious, and lot of people are clueless), and were a bit more proactive, and actively and aggressively questioned everything, things would be a little different, but hey, beer and football seem to have more sway and importance than rights, so, it is what it is.
There exists no other right, where I am constantly at risk of being arrested for exercising it. The right to keep and bear arms. So, I can travel through MD to PA and conceal carry? No, because neither state recognizes my VA CCP and my right to carry without infringement
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Offrink View Post
Isnít that what the 50 Beowulf is designed for? Breaking engine blocks at checkpoints. I think that it will do a good thump on some bullet resistant glass to be followed up by lighter bullets if necessary. 600 grains is a hell of a thump!
Had thought about getting an upper or 2, however the costs associated with maintaining practical skills with such, even if reloading, outweighed any benefits. IMO.

.308 would do similar (most likely/most similar application), further out, without having to be concerned about what arms to have available. .308 would probably do better (again IMO), with correct ammunition.

Get into .50BW just for the fun/heck of it? Sure, if one wants.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by cujet View Post
2) I completely believe that 22's and other pistol caliber weapons are NOT capable weapons when it comes to defense of country.
Maybe these guys donít know about it.




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Old 11-14-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
Had thought about getting an upper or 2, however the costs associated with maintaining practical skills with such, even if reloading, outweighed any benefits. IMO.

.308 would do similar (most likely/most similar application), further out, without having to be concerned about what arms to have available. .308 would probably do better (again IMO), with correct ammunition.

Get into .50BW just for the fun/heck of it? Sure, if one wants.
I am currently researching this round and which uppers to stay away from. Hopefully more will chime in because this is literally what the round was designed for.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by laralynx View Post
There exists no other right, where I am constantly at risk of being arrested for exercising it. The right to keep and bear arms. So, I can travel through MD to PA and conceal carry? No, because neither state recognizes my VA CCP and my right to carry without infringement
Look, things are what they are, no matter what we may "think" or "hope" they are.

Its pretty obvious that we are NOT (if youve been paying the least little bit of attention anyway) the free country we've been told, and what you might have been told in school, depending on the era, isnt what reality is. If we were truly free, we wouldnt be discussing this at all.

We are still a lot better off than most other places, no doubt, but this isnt the USA it was, even just a century ago.


What Im getting at here is, contrary to what some seem to think, "most" of us CAN STILL own/buy/sell pretty much anything, or at least, anything currently in the NFA registry if you want something a little more exotic.

Now I understand, there are places that restrict things, but, right now anway, they are a small minority. So things are currently and readily avaialble if youve got the money and time.

If you live someplace that does restrict things, whose fault is it they are restricted? Why arent all the gun owners down at the State Capital going all Antifa on them demanding their rights be restored?

Its the same reason should you begin to see confiscation happen, that you wont see much of anything.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Offrink View Post
I am currently researching this round and which uppers to stay away from. Hopefully more will chime in because this is literally what the round was designed for.
Close in tho, is my understanding. With support.

If the manure hits the fan, close in would be beyond bad. Supported or not.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
Close in tho, is my understanding. With support.

If the manure hits the fan, close in would be beyond bad. Supported or not.
One of the things I read was that the round was designed to break engine blocks in the 200 to 300 yard range. I cannot verify that but it still would be a force multiplier to be able to stop any citizen vehicle including semiĎs in its tracks at 200 yards. Due to their lacking much data itís difficult to get good information with the big bore ARís.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
For that matter, AP ammo is another category that has common restrictions.
In my country, AP ammo is not sold in stores at all. But we can freely buy 7.62x54 AP bullets in bulk or even by weight. So we using them to reload .308Win and they work just fine in AR10-type weapons.
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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In my country, AP ammo is not sold in stores at all. But we can freely buy 7.62x54 AP bullets in bulk or even by weight. So we using them to reload .308Win and they work just fine in AR10-type weapons.
So when are you shipping a 55 gallon drum full my way?
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Old 11-14-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
1) I own some "toy" guns, I love shooting my 22's in the backyard. They don't annoy the neighbors and they are inexpensive to shoot.

2) I completely believe that 22's and other pistol caliber weapons are NOT capable weapons when it comes to defense of country. You don't see any fighters using "toys". The smallest of small arms used in combat would be the 223/5.56 used by Americans. The rest of the world uses 7.62 caliber minimum.

3) Neither 223/5.56 nor any of the 7.62 offerings are powerful enough to overcome modern defensive equipment. They cannot quickly or effectively stop a determined entity driving a hardened hummer or MRAP. EDIT: Yes a lucky small arms shot can take out motive equipment. Good luck getting that shot when it's coming for YOU.

4) I truly believe that government is slowly and surely preventing the ownership of capable arms.
Caliber doesn't matter nearly as much as shot placement.

For vehicles, a mix of a flammable liquid and black paint can blind and disable them.

Many things are "capable" if you know how to use them.

Prehistoric people took down mammoths by digging ditches and using sharpened rocks.
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Old 11-14-2019, 05:07 PM
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T. Rex had incapable arms

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