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Old 11-01-2019, 10:08 PM
greif greif is offline
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How do you deal in winter with water if there is no snow but yet freezing temps?
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Old 11-01-2019, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by greif View Post
How do you deal in winter with water if there is no snow but yet freezing temps?
I have had good luck with Emergency Water Pouches. I keep a dozen or so in my vehicles and it gets downright chilly here in the winter. They freeze, thaw and repeat on a daily basis without rupturing. YMMV
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Old 11-02-2019, 08:18 AM
Vanishing Nomad Vanishing Nomad is offline
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I normally don't get into these types of conversations (too much negative energy, and I am all about positive thinking and wilderness adventures, as opposed to doomsday backpacking), but it's Zombie apocalypse season, so i'll throw my $0.20 in (inflation).

Unlike everyone else who is posting their favorite list, I am going to focus in on only a few of the most essential pieces of gear you can have.

The top 3 are Shelter, insulation, water carry purification.

If you are in some sort of disaster that requires an emergency escape from your home or car, you can bet dollars to doughnuts there is going to be lots of rain and cold. It's going to be the worst conditions, and your house probably just got leveled (car wrecked)...or you would not be leaving it in the first place.

A "Bug Out" is going to have basically the same core needs as any recreational wilderness survival adventure. Other than carrying a weapon, it's really just going to be a more stressful version of an unplanned camping trip.

Lets forget about all the modern survival gadgets and gizmo's and “Lists of gear” that everyone is obsessed with and take good look at what your core survival needs really are.

Hypothermia is the number one killer in the wilderness; aside from falling to your death because you just haaaaad to look over the edge of that rock face.

Hypothermia is most often brought on by getting wet, and staying wet, in surprisingly warm temperatures.

In 55 degree temps, in the bright sun, you probably wont get hypothermic. That is because the damm SUN is warming you. Take the sun away, however, add some wind, and rain, and that same 55 degrees will kill you by morning.

Picture this:
It's been raining for 2 weeks straight. Temperatures have been between 45 and 55 degrees (a typical spring or fall in the Midwest). Nothing is dry, everything is soaked to the core. Only a Grandmaster woodsman can make fire in this environment....and he doesn't even bother trying. THIS is when the storm of all storms is going to level your house, and the entire area for 50 miles around you.

There is death and destruction everywhere...and since it's Zombie season, all the dead get up and start walking around looking for brains to eat. (or, it could just be a plain old monster hurricane that floods everything along the entire coast line like we have actually seen happen in recent years, without the zombies)

What are you going to need in that situation?

Well, the first two priorities are going to be shelter, and some sort of clothing that keeps you warm even if it's soaking wet. Dry cloths will be priceless. Carry them. Extra sox, wool gloves hat etc...

But alas, your dry cloths will also get soaked shortly after putting them on, and it will be weeks before there is enough sun to dry anything out...so make sure you have plenty of wool layers. Wool keeps you warm, even below temperatures that other “Warm when wet” materials have stopped working.

Most warm when wet materials stop working around the 40 degree area. Wool if layered well, still keeps you warm into the low 30s and high 20s. (based on personal testing, sleeping outdoors on my porch, in various types soaked clothing in various temperatures, during Chicago area winters)

Shelter wise, you have to really think this through. You are going to be on the move. The rain is not stopping. Its not getting warmer, there is debris everywhere and you have to keep going.

The first shelter you should be thinking about is waterproof clothing. A light packable 2 piece rain suit is ideal. Its actually superior to a rain poncho because a rain poncho doesnt fully cover you.

Unless you are a very petite individual, almost all commercial rain ponchos only cover your top half, and only offer partial coverage for your arms.

What happens (and I learned this the hard way) is that the poncho channels all that cold water to your limbs. The cold water then chills your arms and legs. That cold is then brought to your heart via your blood stream, and you suddenly become hypothermic. I have seen it happen to people in like 30 seconds.

This is known as the “Radiator Effect”. I was with a guy who was trying to go barefoot in the snow once. Despite being all covered up in extremely warm clothing otherwise, he almost died that day. I had to carry him out of the woods and get him into his car to warm up. He was like trying to carry a drunk to his door step. The only part of him that was cold, was his feel in the snow.

He walked barefoot literally less than 100 feet before collapsing.

In an emergency, you NEED full body rain coverage. So if you must insist on a rain poncho, make sure you have one custom made to cover to your wrists, and down to your ankles, or grow short enough to use the ones they already make.

Or buy a 2 piece rain suit like normal people.

If you are already wet (and you probably are, as your house just got leveled by the storm) put the rain suit on anyway. It will provide a solid barrier against the wind, and prevent heat loss due to evaporation.

Most people dont know this, but a proper rain suit is just as much about preventing the wind from chilling you, as it is about keeping you dry.

Water is fairly simple. You need a larger container than you think, like a Kleen Kanteen 2 quart bottle, or the Dave Canterbury equivalent with the matching nesting cup/bushpot, and a sawyer mini water filter kit (the Gold standard of water filters).

See my video for more insight:



The truth of the matter, is that if you have proper clothing, including good wool layering, a rain suit, and a way to carry and purify water you can pretty much survive for a couple of weeks...especially if you have extra bodyfat.

If you throw in some sort of high fat, high protein food rations, that 2 weeks of Zombie survival now becomes a minimalist's recreational camping trip.
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:17 PM
PeterWiggin PeterWiggin is offline
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why limit yourself to one bag if you're bugging out in a car?

Have a good GHB in your car, but why not some 5-gallon buckets? I have two 5-gallon buckets with gamma lids holding water and another holding food. I also have a tote holding other supplies, especially a 8-quart steel pot and lid. Where I live, I need blankets and layers for the winter.

So, maybe don't limit yourself if you have the luxury of a car?
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:37 PM
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There is a TON of great info on this thread. Maybe I missed it but instead of adding what I have in a GHB, I'll just state an obvious fact that people seem to forget. IF you have to leave your car and walk... can you carry your survival items with you?

After I packed my GHB, I put it on (it's a backpack) and walked a half mile down my road. Oh my gosh!!! There is no way I could have walked much more than that mile (1/2 mile there and back). It was TOO heavy. So, I repacked, tried it and repacked it and finally have it at a weight that I 'think' I can carry it for a couple of days if I needed to walk home. Mine is 21 pounds right now. I realize that's not much weight for many people but... it's what works for me at my size and physical ability. My husband did the same thing and his is far heavier than mine (obviously) but he's thinking of repacking his again and making it lighter also. The reality of walking miles and miles, days (we have hills) is daunting. I could do it without a pack... but not with a heavy pack.

Each time I repacked it I would have to make hard decisions (to me) on what I felt I could leave out. I did a lot of research to find items that have multiple uses for backpackers to help lesson the load.

IF I had to walk in the winter that adds a whole nother level to what I would need. (That was addressed above excellently.) I keep that extra survival gear in my car but I don't know how much I could actually carry with me.
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:54 PM
PeterWiggin PeterWiggin is offline
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Originally Posted by prairieskygirl View Post
... I'll just state an obvious fact that people seem to forget. IF you have to leave your car and walk... can you carry your survival items with you?
I keep a folding wagon in my car, cuz why not?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Tra...agon/670509406
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:13 PM
Vanishing Nomad Vanishing Nomad is offline
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This is a very good point.

I seem to be good right about 45 pounds. At that weight, I can hike 8 to 10 miles a day. I can do 12 miles after a few days of hiking.

The key is getting out with your pack regularly.

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Originally Posted by prairieskygirl View Post
There is a TON of great info on this thread. Maybe I missed it but instead of adding what I have in a GHB, I'll just state an obvious fact that people seem to forget. IF you have to leave your car and walk... can you carry your survival items with you?

After I packed my GHB, I put it on (it's a backpack) and walked a half mile down my road. Oh my gosh!!! There is no way I could have walked much more than that mile (1/2 mile there and back). It was TOO heavy. So, I repacked, tried it and repacked it and finally have it at a weight that I 'think' I can carry it for a couple of days if I needed to walk home. Mine is 21 pounds right now. I realize that's not much weight for many people but... it's what works for me at my size and physical ability. My husband did the same thing and his is far heavier than mine (obviously) but he's thinking of repacking his again and making it lighter also. The reality of walking miles and miles, days (we have hills) is daunting. I could do it without a pack... but not with a heavy pack.

Each time I repacked it I would have to make hard decisions (to me) on what I felt I could leave out. I did a lot of research to find items that have multiple uses for backpackers to help lesson the load.

IF I had to walk in the winter that adds a whole nother level to what I would need. (That was addressed above excellently.) I keep that extra survival gear in my car but I don't know how much I could actually carry with me.
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:29 PM
Henrykjr Henrykjr is offline
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Plenty of posts on this......in this case I take my info from the ultra light backpackers forum. Lots of good into here.

The think you need to wrap your head around is how far you are willing to walk with your back and how far you are physically capable of walking.

5lbs in added weight is a HUGE add when walking...and should be considered.

There is a challenge called Go Ruck with is timed on how far you can walk with a weighted pack.

As a minimum....3 day hikers first aid kit, water filter of some type, water in the car, clothing to minimize exposure and 2400-3600 calories in food. You will need a way to boils water fothe thats a fire source and lastly a flashlight and a knife.

HK
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:40 PM
William Ashley William Ashley is offline
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Originally Posted by greif View Post
How do you deal in winter with water if there is no snow but yet freezing temps?
If you keep your water inside your jacket it stays liquid. and if you are mobile you can heat frozen water/ice/snow in a waterproof container in an innner pocket of your jacket.

It also forces water rationing on the move as it takes time for the ice to melt meaning you conserve water.

You know mobility is going to be balanced with sweat prevention, that is part of the reason for travelling light, you can loose a lot of water through sweat. Just go to the gym for an hour or so of high output ... weigh yourself before then after loosing 2 to 5lbs of sweat in an hour would not be extreme. A few hours of high output is a lot of water in weight. far more than you are likely to carry.

That is why if water resource is limited, so to should your activities.

This is why most of our weight should be water and then food... unless you have water supply you are going to need to sacrifice gear for water.

bear in mind in some environments there are stored water supplies such as tree sap, vines, and other plants. Many basic water gathering systems exist but even in gathering water via these methods..y ou know you are going to need plastic baggies, containers, a good cuttting blade, tree tap etc.. based on your local environment and season. In some environments you may need a good Etool to dig for water... its all variable to environment.

The water filter can be good but in a nuclear scenario.. DOES YOUR LIFESTRAW FILTER RADIATION OF BLACK RAIN?

Some filters do filter fallout but makesure your water filter is radiation filtering....

https://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p919.htm

For example
https://www.nukepills.com/shop/rfs1-...tration-straw/


Note though learning the science of fallout you will quickly realize that even that radioactive filter doesn't list all radioactive fallout chemicals. In a nuclear scenario depending on surface water is a death sentence.

Consider going into properties, finding water tanks, break own plumbing systems etc.. as "Sealed" sources of water. Filtering outdoor water on the run is just like drinking poison. IN non nuclear war scenarios that might be fine and dandy but in nuclear war the potential for fallout contamination in the days following the strike day will be massive, especially in urban areas if a MAD scneario unfolds as opposed to limited tactical strike of military and strategic assets.

Personally I don't really believe that there will be tactical strikes or limited exchanges inside US/Russia/China in any nuclear war scenario.. I am pretty sure that the MT bombs will be used along side MIRV systems for widespread urban attacks on most US cities over 1 million people because Fedgov and mil has national security and military and command and control in all those cities. Wiping out the communications backbone will be a major prong of taking out command and control facilities that will preceed any large scale invasion.

I can't imagine any scenario as causing this other than a pacific war.. and china presumably has limited resources for long range missile strike within the US.. its stocks are growing though.. but I do't suspect this secnario until atleast 2024.

CHinas ambitions are very limited to the pacfic currently and Taiwan and ASEAN pacific countries will likely keep it occupied for the next decade or beyond. The real issue is the US pushing back on demanding sealanes stay international while china is escalating its envforcement in those area... its is a real powderkeg... in fact it will be the US to cause a war through pushback against chinas pacific actions. The US has defence agreements with countries in the pacific off china , and that is really the only thing I can see as causing a nuclear war scenario. Again though China is only now starting to deploy missiels capable of hitting any US city, their stocks are limited currently, and will take a few years to build stocks to whipeout the continetal us.

Belt and Road aims on exporting Chinese men, construction workers, as china has a 30 million surplus of men to women, so their plan really is to colonize and have an outflow of china to gain chinese soft power. I don't really think china wants to do war, they are more about population control... they are taking the soft power route leading up to 2024-2030. Its a good 10 15 year before they would likely feel powerful enough to occupy north america.


Both China and Russia are planning to be attacked, their ability to attack North America is very limited, Russia does have nuclear options, but China is building nuclear options. The only thing that would cuase this issue is really the US being in their sphere of influence... the US is pushing back through very provocative things... it is the sense of it playing to win... that is the risk, it is a policy of isoloation and containment... its the question of how bad does the frog have to fry before it tries to jump out.

Putin is getting older (he will be in his 70s at the expirartion of his current term) that is the real face change that may change geopolitics in 2024, we need to see how is set to replace him if so then... Xi is president for life now, so China will likely have a stable face leading for 10 or so years unless something big happens. (Gorvachev is currently 88, he will be in his 90s at the end of the next term) Kissinger is 96, he will be over 100 the end of the next term. The real danger is that things keeping things stable are at risk of falling away. Because no one alive has experienced the effects of war or nuclear war first hand in the leadership of these superstates. There is really no good reason why anyone would be mad enough to bring that type of destruction on the planet. At all times these scenarios have unfolded in the past the people with the power to pull the trigger decided to say no to the system that told them to pull the trigger. The real risk is that humans may become so programmed and loose touch with humanity that pulling the trigger will be their job, than their duty to question if pulling the trigger is the right thing to do. China, India, and US all have broad institutionally held beleifs that human rights don't apply in war, and with that reality, and the people who fight those wars beleiving that, nuclear and chemical and biological war becomes a real possiblity that we all become a collatoral damage to. But it is still unthinkinable. Part of the power of weapons is to blur the line between THE BLUFF, and actual beleifs. Ask yourself would you pull the trigger, if you were told to? Do you think someone in Beijing would, or someone in xyz location on a mobile launcher would when his boss says nuke the Mericuns.

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pm...w-start-treaty

Russia has effectively singaled a renegotation of NEW START is dead and there will be a gap meaning upgrading and restockin of nuclear weapons is a real reality leading in 2021. This is a new age of faster, more powerful and harder to stop weapons.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/w...re-russia.html

This doesn't mean nuclear war but it does mean we are leave the time when we all agreed nuclear weapons were too dangerous to continue to build on. US plans on upgrading all its old nuclear weapons, russia likewise...

China is..

Building weapons you don't plan on using is a waste of resources so it is not that many billions will be spent on fancy, but rather there are plans for deployment and use of those weapons, and we need to understand that there are repercussions that are very serious to that.
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:34 PM
PeterWiggin PeterWiggin is offline
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i totally understand layers, but it sounds like some of y'all are EXPECTING to abandon your vehicle?
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:47 PM
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i totally understand layers, but it sounds like some of y'all are EXPECTING to abandon your vehicle?
They pretty much are. They are "Doomsday Backpackers"

Backpackers of any flavor generally dont use cars, outside of getting themselves to the place where they plan on doing said backpacking (Normal people drive to the trailhead)
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Old 11-02-2019, 06:06 PM
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i totally understand layers, but it sounds like some of y'all are EXPECTING to abandon your vehicle?
I certainly do. Because in my area people do. A tree goes down. A telephone pole goes down. Flood waters come up and you could be stuck on the road for days.
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Old 11-02-2019, 06:10 PM
PeterWiggin PeterWiggin is offline
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They pretty much are. They are "Doomsday Backpackers"

Backpackers of any flavor generally dont use cars, outside of getting themselves to the place where they plan on doing said backpacking (Normal people drive to the trailhead)
I've certainly driven (and biked) to plenty of trailheads, but...

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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
I certainly do. ... Flood waters come up and you could be stuck on the road for days.
that does make sense, only to the extent of not drowning.

I'm not bugging out of my perfectly good house unless doing so is clearly safer than staying (eg. fire). And in that case, I'm not bugging out of my perfectly good vehicle unless doing so is clearly safe than staying (eg. drowning).

However, where I live and the roads I drive, flooding is extremely unlikely. If a nuke war (scenario in OP) happened and I drove into the mountains away from higher target areas, I'm not leaving my vehicle full of resources, especially in the winter.

But I can see it from your point of view for your circumstances.
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Old 11-02-2019, 08:04 PM
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I was reading a book called "Point of Impact," about a nuke hitting NYC, Chicago, and Miami (so far), and the lead character had to leave her bug-out bag, and that made me think about what I would need in such a thing to take care of one person for roughly 3 days.

I was thinking which bag would work best, plus what to stock in it.

So far, I have my ILBE II day pack, but maybe something with compartments?

I'm thinking I'd put at least:
-1 life straw
-ration cubes
-klean kanteen
-space blanket
-kabar knife
-flint fire starter and a bic lighter

What else might be useful that I might be missing from that list?
I have a few things. A couple bags and a bit more. A case of water bottles (keep drinking and rotating them). Blankets, emergecny food, a get home bag.
One thing that has been VERY useful: Spare set of clothes for each family member. You never know when you may need to change into clean dry clothes.
Also a nice first aid kit, got used a few times.
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Old 11-02-2019, 09:09 PM
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I dont drive very far this time of year, without the gear and supplies to survive a winter storm.
Blizzards can last several days and dump +4ft of snow.
If a storm hits when I am driving a secondary road, I might be there for a week.
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Old 11-02-2019, 10:12 PM
PeterWiggin PeterWiggin is offline
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I dont drive very far this time of year, without the gear and supplies to survive a winter storm.
Blizzards can last several days and dump +4ft of snow.
If a storm hits when I am driving a secondary road, I might be there for a week.
So if you're horribly stuck somewhere and you're surviving in your vehicle, it sounds like you'd need a snow shovel to help set up camp until your vehicle gets unstuck?

Do you carry a shovel? I have a regular garden shovel in my car, but not a full size snow shovel. And if I need to process wood, I have a bow saw.
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Old 11-02-2019, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterWiggin View Post
So if you're horribly stuck somewhere and you're surviving in your vehicle, it sounds like you'd need a snow shovel to help set up camp until your vehicle gets unstuck?

Do you carry a shovel? I have a regular garden shovel in my car, but not a full size snow shovel. And if I need to process wood, I have a bow saw.
I grew up on a farm, so I used to pack a full sized grain shovel.
Now days I have a military entrenching tool, which is short handled and tiny.
But I do carry a large outfitter tent and my Wiggy bags.
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterWiggin View Post
i totally understand layers, but it sounds like some of y'all are EXPECTING to abandon your vehicle?
I rolled a jeep in a blizzard and came to rest upside down in a ravine. It was already dark and I was about 10 miles away from the nearest house. The dog and I were beat up but no serious injuries. I damn sure learned the hard way to tie my gear down inside a vehicle.
We geared up at first light, I put extra supplies in my pockets, dumped the rest out of my pack in to the jeep, rolled the pug up like a burrito and stuffed her in it. We hiked about 5 miles before we got help.
No one ever expects to abandon their vehicle, but your supplies are not just for the end of the world and **** happens.
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Old 11-03-2019, 01:34 PM
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This time of year I keep a plastic snow sled (taboggin) in my trunk. I have my BOB, a gallon of pre-frozen spring water and a winter duffel bag from a surplus store with winter gear in it.

I keep a black trash bag in my wife’s car behind the passenger seat in the well. It has some food, wool Sox, a couple quarts of Smart water, a wool blanket and a personal urination cup and hose with some sealable bags. I keep two battery pack phone rechargers in her purse and a LED lite with AAs and a strobe function clipped inside her purse. Her trunk has a tub of further gear velcroed inside as back up. She also has more spare mags in there too, in case.
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Old 11-03-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterWiggin View Post
i totally understand layers, but it sounds like some of y'all are EXPECTING to abandon your vehicle?
Ever hear of the Blizzard of 1888, also know as the children of the haystack? My greatt grandfather lived in Jouble, SD at that time, and it was his hay stack.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoolhouse_Blizzard

The children had been driven out of a county school house 1/4 mile away when the winds destroyed the structure. The school teacher had tied her kids together with a rope, and they tried walking that distance into the storm. They missed the house, and spent the night piled into the hay stack, because thats all the shelter they could find.

If you grow up living on the great plains, you will learn of a weather event called a "Blue Northern". It looks like a giant dark colored wave sweeping across the plains from the north, it often reduces visibility to a few feet, and dumps enough snow to cover a wire fence. https://weather.com/news/news/blue-norther-20121003
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