Well pump, expansion tank and Cycle Stop Valve "review"

[cujet]

Originally Posted by azrancher

Yes except that you are using a lot more energy than you should be to pump water.

Rancher

That may, in fact, be true. I'm not making any claims one way or the other with regard to energy consumption. As I mentioned, during pump operation at low flow rates, electrical consumption is significantly reduced. My pump runs so infrequently on a daily basis, it's OK with me.

Since my system is sized well for my needs, the fact that the pump remains on during a shower, rather than cycling off a good number of times is, I think, worth it. I'm not at all sure I will see additional consumption in my electrical bill.

Your irrigation example is quite different. My pump only runs during periods of demand. Which are not that frequent at my home.

It will be interesting to run my home "off grid" and check the generator loads during pump operation. The pump "cycling" always loads the generator hard during pump start. The constant pump operation may be easier on the generator too. And fewer electrical surges. I'll test it and see. I'm interested to find out.

As far as a "slot" in the CSV1a valve. I did not see one in the valve face. It looks like a typical poppet valve, and it's surface was similar to a typical engine's intake valve. Possibly the slot is in the valve seat? I did look inside carefully and did not notice any slot. But I did notice the valve never fully seated, even with the preload spring cranked down. I could be wrong, and possibly I need better reading glasses!

[cujet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANyiSSWD9U

This is a good video and shows how it works. Fast forward to the 4 minute mark to see the operation. (not my video)

[DoOver]

The only way I can think of an electric water pump reducing running amps is if the water flow being pumped is stopped or slowed. When this happens the pumped water becomes static. The pump then just "unloads". The pump is then either pumping a just small amount or no longer pumping water, thus reducing the full load amperage of the motor.
We find this in frozen water laterals. The pump starts and runs but has no "load" no water to pump. Resulting in a lower amperage reading.
I can't say this will hurt the pump per se as I've had pumps running constantly all winter in seasonal homes that where not winterized properly.

[azrancher]

Originally Posted by DoOver

I can't say this will hurt the pump per se as I've had pumps running constantly all winter in seasonal homes that where not winterized properly.

No it probably doesn't hurt the pump unless it overheats the pump, only if it has a drop pipe and is submersible then you may have a problem, and of course it runs all the time so there is the electrical use.

Rancher

[6556]

Originally Posted by cujet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANyiSSWD9U

This is a good video and shows how it works. Fast forward to the 4 minute mark to see the operation. (not my video)

Someone needs to learn about cord grips!

[Don H]

Seems to me (based on my Redneck engineering background) that a larger expansion tank would cause the pump to use less electricity and be easier on the pump with fewer start/stop cycles.

I run a Gould deep well pump and an 80 gallon WellXTrol tank. Pump is 30 years old now.

[cujet]

Originally Posted by Don H

Seems to me (based on my Redneck engineering background) that a larger expansion tank would cause the pump to use less electricity and be easier on the pump with fewer start/stop cycles.

I run a Gould deep well pump and an 80 gallon WellXTrol tank. Pump is 30 years old now.

That's exactly the point. Because of my high pressure and high volume requirements, I would need an absolutely HUGE expansion tank to keep pump cycling to a minimum. Remember, high pressure means much less "draw down" on a given size tank.

I have a 60 gallon Well-Mate tank. To get the pump to cycle every 3 minutes during a shower would require 2ea 120 gallon expansion tanks. That's big bucks. ( OMG, the 260 gallon tank is $4399! ) And, it's annoying when pressure drops.

Living with it for a while, I am extremely happy with how it functions in my configuration. 87PSI all the time. No pressure drop as pump no longer cycles during showers.

[6556]

Originally Posted by cujet

That's exactly the point. Because of my high pressure and high volume requirements, I would need an absolutely HUGE expansion tank to keep pump cycling to a minimum. Remember, high pressure means much less "draw down" on a given size tank.

I have a 60 gallon Well-Mate tank. To get the pump to cycle every 3 minutes during a shower would require 2ea 120 gallon expansion tanks. That's big bucks. ( OMG, the 260 gallon tank is $4399! ) And, it's annoying when pressure drops.

Living with it for a while, I am extremely happy with how it functions in my configuration. 87PSI all the time. No pressure drop as pump no longer cycles during showers.

I think the point should be made, while you say that you require high pressure AND high volume, in fact you are getting LESS volume. Yes, your pressure is running higher and more constant HOWEVER, you have sacrificed VOLUME to achieve this. Your CVS has DECREASED volume/water flow and has NOT increased it.

[cujet]

Originally Posted by 6556

I think the point should be made, while you say that you require high pressure AND high volume, in fact you are getting LESS volume. Yes, your pressure is running higher and more constant HOWEVER, you have sacrificed VOLUME to achieve this. Your CVS has DECREASED volume/water flow and has NOT increased it.

Absolutely incorrect. Yes, the CSV is a restriction. It restricts the pump from 103 PSI down to 87. But you are forgetting that the pump shuts off and the tank "draws-down" to levels much lower than my "constant" level now.

At no point did I use a 103 PSI shut off point before. A 70-90 on/off was typical. With most of the time, during draw-down, the system hovering below the current setting of 87. My water heater has a maximum operating pressure of 100.

So, in essence, I'm very close to my previous 90 PSI peak, and it's there constantly.

My showers are now consistently stronger. With the possible exception of the 15 seconds when the pump reached shut off pressure before.

[6556]

Originally Posted by cujet

Absolutely incorrect. Yes, the CSV is a restriction. It restricts the pump from 103 PSI down to 87. But you are forgetting that the pump shuts off and the tank "draws-down" to levels much lower than my "constant" level now.

At no point did I use a 103 PSI shut off point before. A 70-90 on/off was typical. With most of the time, during draw-down, the system hovering below the current setting of 87. My water heater has a maximum operating pressure of 100.

So, in essence, I'm very close to my previous 90 PSI peak, and it's there constantly.

My showers are now consistently stronger. With the possible exception of the 15 seconds when the pump reached shut off pressure before.

Okay, I said that you now have less volume, and you quote "PSI"

As an engineer you should know that these two, Volume and Pressure are very different. You can't discuss flow rate/volume, typically measured in gallons per minute buy using units of pressure, here being measured in Pounds per Square inch.

Just to make this simple.

Before you added your valve what was your operating water pressure, and at how many gallons per minute?

AND Now WITH the valve, Your operating pressure is 87 PSI but What are the Gallons per Minute????

[azrancher]

Originally Posted by cujet

So, in essence, I'm very close to my previous 90 PSI peak, and it's there constantly.

I hate to tell you 90 PSI is a lot for most homes, I run mine at 50-70 PSI, and that is extreme.

Expect lots of failures from you faucets/ dishwashers/ refrigerators, ect.

But enjoy your CSV, it really is not magic.

Rancher

[sarco2000]

Originally Posted by 6556

...you have sacrificed VOLUME to achieve this. Your CVS has DECREASED volume/water flow and has NOT increased it.

Originally Posted by azrancher

I hate to tell you 90 PSI is a lot for most homes, I run mine at 50-70 PSI, and that is extreme...

Thanks for the sanity check, I kept wondering what I was missing in this thread.

I am not an engineer, but the whole thing didn't seem to make sense to me. I know that most homes with a well have pressure switches at 40-60 (or 50-70). I know that city water can be higher pressure than that, but I'd never heard of a home with 90-100 psi. I was wondering if the fixtures and plumbing can handle that. PEX pipe can handle 130 psi, but I've installed plenty of it and I don't think I would trust the clamps to hold at a continuous 90 psi pressure. What if there are leaks at the fittings hidden in the walls? What about the faucet hoses and their connections?

Also the flow vs pressure thing was bugging me, I learned about that while I was installing my irrigation lines, so things weren't making sense, wondering how does restricting the flow add more volume? So I just moved on and thought maybe I was reading wrong.

I know that higher pressure can make it seem like a higher volume. It seems to work for him, but personally, I don't think I would mess with this device. Just my opinion.

[cujet]

Originally Posted by 6556

Okay, I said that you now have less volume, and you quote "PSI"

As an engineer you should know that these two, Volume and Pressure are very different.

Incorrect.

Pressure is required to achieve a given flow rate through a restriction. In this case, the restriction is the shower heads.

The higher the system pressure, the more flow rate I have. I have 3/4 inch copper pipe in my home, for high flow rates.

I think you are missing the point. Had I run the pump constantly without CSV and without shutting it off, I would have more flow and pressure. But that's not how well pumps operate.

Let's study fluid dynamics for a bit: Darcy-Weisbach equation





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darcy%...sbach_equation

So, discounting the frictional losses in a pipe, there is a linear relationship between pressure and flow rate. The doubling the pressure doubles the flow rate.

Also, please don't say that smaller pipes maintain pressure and flow rates, and larger pipes lose pressure. If that were the case, the city water main would be the size of a straw.

[6556]

Originally Posted by cujet

Incorrect. Incorrect again?? So, now the terms PSI and GPM are interchangeable??

Pressure is required to achieve a given flow rate through a restriction. In this case, the restriction is the shower heads. the higher the system pressure, the more flow rate I have. I have 3/4 inch copper pipe in my home, for high flow rates. To this, I've never disagreed!!

I think you are missing the point. Had I run the pump constantly without CSV and without shutting it off, I would have more flow and pressure. But that's not how well pumps operate. So without your CSV you would have more flow and more pressure?

Let's study fluid dynamics for a bit: Darcy-Weisbach equation No, lets not!





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darcy%...sbach_equation

So, discounting the frictional losses in a pipe, there is a linear relationship between pressure and flow rate. The doubling the pressure doubles the flow rate.

Also, please don't say that smaller pipes maintain pressure and flow rates, and larger pipes lose pressure. If that were the case, the city water main would be the size of a straw.

And why would I say that?


I have a high pressure washer, it has a 5hp gas engine and I hook it up to my garden hose (which delivers about 7 gallons per minute)
My pressure washer is rated at 1750 PIS but pumps only 2.2 gallons per minute.

AGAIN Before you installed your CVS What was your line pressure and how many gallons a minute did it deliver?

IF you think that you can not measure it because your pressure varies, simply check how many gallons it pumps over 10 minutes and divide...

AND After installing your CVS your line pressure is now 87PSI, but at HOW MANY GALLONS PER MINUTE?


You are now claiming that your 2 horse power well pump, is now using about 1/4th it's rated power and is now delivering MORE WATER at a HIGHER PRESSURE and I say.. You are INCORRECT!

[cujet]

Originally Posted by 6556

I have a high pressure washer, it has a 5hp gas engine and I hook it up to my garden hose (which delivers about 7 gallons per minute)
My pressure washer is rated at 1750 PIS but pumps only 2.2 gallons per minute.

AGAIN Before you installed your CVS What was your line pressure and how many gallons a minute did it deliver?

IF you think that you can not measure it because your pressure varies, simply check how many gallons it pumps over 10 minutes and divide...

AND After installing your CVS your line pressure is now 87PSI, but at HOW MANY GALLONS PER MINUTE?


You are now claiming that your 2 horse power well pump, is now using about 1/4th it's rated power and is now delivering MORE WATER at a HIGHER PRESSURE and I say.. You are INCORRECT!

Your pressure washer pushes 2GPM through a 0.025 inch orifice.


I think you misunderstand the well pump amp draw statement that I made. When the pump is doing near zero work, the flow rate is approaching zero, the amp draw is considerably lower.

However, during periods of high load (high flow rate) , the amp draw is higher.

Prior to CSV install, pressure cycled between 70 and 90.

GPM, unknown, and unmeasured. Measuring the flow rate of 6 showerheads is not a simple matter.

GPM is higher overall now.

[azrancher]

Originally Posted by cujet

I think you misunderstand the well pump amp draw statement that I made. Prior to CSV install, pressure cycled between 70 and 90.

I think you misunderstand how much pressure and volume you need.

You have a 2hp well pump, I assume it is submersible, I don't know how deep.

I have a 1/3hp above ground pump out of a cistern which is set at 50-70 psi, it will not shut off during a shower, I do not need a CSV.

I do not need a fix for a problem that I do not have.

Does that make sense, design you system for what you need.

You do not need a 2hp pump.

End of story.

Rancher

[6556]

Originally Posted by cujet

Your pressure washer pushes 2GPM through a 0.025 inch orifice.

Yes, I understand that. My point was that my pump while pumping at a much higher pressure, is in fact pumping MUCH less water. Pressure and volume are two different things.

I think you misunderstand the well pump amp draw statement that I made. When the pump is doing near zero work, the flow rate is approaching zero, the amp draw is considerably lower.


However, during periods of high load (high flow rate) , the amp draw is higher.



Prior to CSV install, pressure cycled between 70 and 90.

GPM, unknown, and unmeasured. Measuring the flow rate of 6 showerheads is not a simple matter.

GPM is higher overall now.

But without measuring the flow with and with out the valve how do you know this?

[MattB4]

Originally Posted by cujet

...
Prior to CSV install, pressure cycled between 70 and 90.

GPM, unknown, and unmeasured. Measuring the flow rate of 6 showerheads is not a simple matter.

GPM is higher overall now.

Yes it would be. The gpm at 87psi is a maintained flow rate from constant running of your pump. Whereas the flow rate with only the pressure tank and pump cycling would average 80psi.

All you are dong is turning your pump into always run on usage and in essence bypassing the need for a storage tank. The pressure tank only exists as a temporary buffer and a brief moment of water delivery, until the pressure drops 3 psi and the pump kicks on, it serves no storage need.

[6556]

Originally Posted by MattB4

Yes it would be. The gpm at 87psi is a maintained flow rate from constant running of your pump. Whereas the flow rate with only the pressure tank and pump cycling would average 80psi.

All you are dong is turning your pump into always run on usage and in essence bypassing the need for a storage tank. The pressure tank only exists as a temporary buffer and a brief moment of water delivery, until the pressure drops 3 psi and the pump kicks on, it serves no storage need.

I think you missed the part where he said that this CVS valve works by RESTRICTING water flow.

[cujet]

Originally Posted by 6556

I think you missed the part where he said that this CVS valve works by RESTRICTING water flow.

CSV is a significant restriction during periods of low water flow. However, the system pressure remains in the high 80's. So, flow rate from the kitchen faucet is proper. It keeps system pressure just below the pump shut off pres.

CSV is a very minor restriction (about 5 PSI) during "all out" operation with high flow rates.

My previous pump, a 1.5HP, 2 stage pump was insufficient to run all 6 shower heads. Pump would run continuously and pressure would continue to drop, until I started shutting off shower heads. The goal being a luxury shower, not a normal shower. The 2HP pump is required to get enough flow for all six showerheads.

Each shower head is rated at 2.8 GPM.