What kind of a long gun should a European buy first?

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by RCPG83

Greetings from Finland, a small country in the Northern Europe!

I have been lurking on and off for quite some time, and I admit that the topic has been discussed ad nauseam. Still, I believe it is worth going over it one more time as my situation is somewhat different compared to most board members in the US.

If I go through our gun laws shortly, here in Finland you need to apply for a license for every weapon you want to acquire. Getting the license basically requires you to be mentally fit, to be of a good moral character, and to prove a valid reason for the weapon (hunting and sports shooting are the most common, even though there are others defined in the law). The weapon should be well-suited for your intended use and it should not be of 'excessive firepower', which is somewhat arbitrary and differs by the granting authority. Oh, and thanks to the latest round regulations, we are now limited to 10 round magazines in long guns and 20 round magazines in handguns (nope, cannot have pre-ban magazines, although sports shooters can apply for an exception). If the weapon you want to acquire is semi-automatic, you will have to prove every five years your valid reason still exists or your license for that weapon will be revoked. And do not get me started about handgun licenses. Ordinary people can only have them for sports shooting. Even then you have to prove, in addition to your valid reason (an IPSC safety course together with an IPSC club membership will do, for example), that you have participated in 10 handgun shooting sessions in the span of two years before you may be granted a license for your own handgun. A two year cooling-off period... for a handgun. California is not so bad after all, is it?

Thankfully, my needs are somewhat different compared to most American preppers. The defensive potential is not all that essential to me. The Finns are pretty homogenous so there is no great potential for major civil unrest, IMHO. Even if it comes to that, less than 15 per cent of the population owns a legal firearm(s), so if you have one, you already have the upper edge in any encounter, statistically speaking. (Although being capable of defending against canine sized predators would be preferable, I wonder if a .22 would do for that...)

While at the moment I am an unarmed city dweller, I am genuinely interested in my grandfather's hobby of small game hunting, and especially grouse hunting. After I take my hunting license exam and buy a permit to hunt on public land, I should be ready to apply for a weapon license sometime early next spring. Most Finnish hunters would probably recommend me to get a shotgun first and a rifle after that if I like the hobby, and I have to admit that a shotgun can be an extremely versatile weapon. Although I like rifles more.

As a short- to mid-term plan I am thinking of a .22 lr bolt action rifle with a silencer (yes sir, we can own them - no tax stamps, no hassle), a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun (Rem 870 with interchangeable chokes???), and a centerfire rifle in either .223 or .308. Does that sound realistic?

For the .22 I have been thinking of something coming with a synthetic stock, a threaded barrel, and iron sights or a picatinny rail to mount iron sights to (in case optics fail). Although there are not many suitable rifles available locally. I would basically be choosing between the Marlin XT-22/295, the Ruger American Rimfire (and Compact and Precision...), and the Sako Quad, the Marlin being the cheapest and the Sako being the most expensive. And why a bolt action? Because the police will not give as hard a time about granting a license than for a semi-automatic. Apparently bolt actions are also more reliable and easier to suppress than semi-automatics. Although the .22 lr is only allowed for smallest of small game... But it would be an invaluable training aid, right? A lot of very cheap firing practice.

For the shotgun I am pretty sure the 12 gauge would be an ideal caliber as I am an average sized male. The Remington 870 might be a good choice as they are common all over the world, including Finland, and the availability of accessories and spare parts is pretty good. With a few different chokes and a variety of ammunition it should serve me well for many years, shouldn't it? Although for survival purposes shotguns kind of suck. The limited range would not be much of a problem especially in my environment, but the ammunition weighs a lot and is reasonably expensive. Is it really worth it or can a rifle do all that a shotgun does when it comes to survival?

The centerfire rifle is giving me a particular headache. I would really like to own an M4gery or perhaps the H&K MR308 (16.5") but I am not even sure if it is worth applying for. I have read about people getting their applications rejected because of 'excessive firepower', then again some people tell me how they got a semi-automatic for hunting and are urging me to apply... If I, however, do apply, what do you think of the caliber? I am inclined to go with the .223 Remington as the ammunition is cheaper and lighter. Although the police would probably rather grant me a license for a bolt action or a straight bolt action rifle in .308... Would such a gun be worth buying if my application for a semi-automatic gets rejected?

Most importantly, which one should I prioritize? It might take me a year or so to afford all of them. The 12 gauge because it is versatile and can handle both small and large game and defensive duties? The .22 because of the cheap ammo and training before I get a larger caliber rifle? Perhaps the centerfire rifle would be the most important?

Any input is much appreciated! (And sorry for any typos in there, I have not slept very well. )

Tough question(s) to answer directly. I'm a big proponent of getting the .22 first, and getting in the practice and trigger time to be able to use it and bigger guns more effectively. But then if you are waiting and saving up for the next one, it might be more useful to start with a bigger gun that can tackle more tasks.

With wanting a gun for defense, Finish moose, grouse, and taking a very popular cartridge, the HK .308 semi auto makes the most sense to me. I would more likely make it an issue to get one especially if they are discouraging people from getting them. It likely won't get easier. Seems to me, that the sporting HK from the 80's or 90's were very attractive guns, and less likely to be looked upon as military guns, even though they were just as capable mechanically...

I wouldn't worry about what "size" or gauge gun seems to suit most people, but what suits you. In the meantime, you are right, in that a properly loaded shotgun can do it all within the confines of a fairly short range. Of course, most slugs are a poor choice for the biggest of game, and it might be necessary to handload or pick up some expensive specialty ammunition for the really big stuff.

[Major Mjolnir]

Originally Posted by RCPG83

The thing is, the Finnish Defence Forces have not bought new rifles in that caliber since the 1990s, so the FDF will probably start to replace them in 10 years or so. Although they are currently in the process of modifying tens of thousands of RK-62s with picatinny rails and Magpul telescopic stocks, I believe it is only a stopgap solution for our infantry. The eventual replacement will probably be chambered in 5.56 NATO (or whatever caliber the NATO moves towards).

Also, I am personally not a fan of the 7.62 x 39. Especially the trajectory bothers me. If you want to hit a barn door, you will have to aim well above the roof. (j/k)

P.S. You don't happen to be an avid martial artist, do you? I am just thinking of a Mjolnir on a Finnish board...

Lol, no - fairly adept at jiu jitsu in my college days, a long time ago. I also picked up a pretty good 'back alley' education running herd over a string of bars in a river port town. Now I'm just a 70 year old softy.

[FerFAL]

Hi, I'd buy a handgun first, Glock 17.
No matter where you are in the world this is always your main gun, the one you use for defense, the one you train with the most, the one you hide in a pack when you leave as all hell breaks loose.

For my American Friends;
GLOCKS ARE MADE IN EUROPE> THEY ARE LEGAL EVERYWHERE IN EUROPE.
PLENTY OF AR15s MADE HERE AS WELL> ALSO LEGAL. AS IN, EVERYWHERE.

Example, Luvo AR15, perfectly legal


Just clarifying this and putting it in caps for folks to rememrber whenever the topic comes up. There's always this suspicion of everything being banned, tihs and that. Other than UK, pretty much everytihng is legal with one permit or another, usually just joining a club and doing some actual shooting once in a while.

Here's a shop in Helsinki where you can get one, new, 645 Euros.
http://www.asenurkka.fi/index.php?op...d=17&Itemid=29

As for long guns, get a Smith &Wesson M&P15, 223
http://www.asenurkka.fi/index.php?pa...mart&Itemid=29
And buy at least 10 30 round pmags. Bet you can find cheaper milsurp mags if you look around.
A Scoprion 9mm would be another nice gun to get
http://www.asenurkka.fi/index.php?pa...mart&Itemid=29


As for regulations, if you join a gun club (which you should) and shoot IPSc (which you should) there's not much you cannot buy. Its a matter of wanting it bad enough.

[kato]

The way I might do it if I lived in that country is, get a 308 bolt action with a scope, next a 22 rifle and now that you have your foot in the door go with a AR-15 and a Glock 17.

The main thing that I would look at is what rifle calibers are popular and always available and always keep in mind what you have to the East.

[Aerindel]

Greetings from Finland, a small country in the Northern Europe!

Greetings from an American two generations removed from when my ancestors lived in Finland.

The defensive potential is not all that essential to me. The Finns are pretty homogenous so there is no great potential for major civil unrest, IMHO.

While this may be true....you are a small country surrounded by countries and cultures of which you have little in common with. Never forget The Winter War.

(Although being capable of defending against canine sized predators would be preferable, I wonder if a .22 would do for that...)

Most likely it would.


While at the moment I am an unarmed city dweller, I am genuinely interested in my grandfather's hobby of small game hunting, and especially grouse hunting. After I take my hunting license exam and buy a permit to hunt on public land, I should be ready to apply for a weapon license sometime early next spring. Most Finnish hunters would probably recommend me to get a shotgun first and a rifle after that if I like the hobby, and I have to admit that a shotgun can be an extremely versatile weapon. Although I like rifles more.

As a short- to mid-term plan I am thinking of a .22 lr bolt action rifle with a silencer (yes sir, we can own them - no tax stamps, no hassle), a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun (Rem 870 with interchangeable chokes???), and a centerfire rifle in either .223 or .308. Does that sound realistic?

Yes, it sounds fine, a good basic armory.

Although for YOUR country I would choose 7.62x39 rather than .223/556 as that is the standard caliber of your own military forces. (as well was 7.62x51/.308)

But it would be an invaluable training aid, right? A lot of very cheap firing practice.

Indeed. Keep optics in mind. In general, the smaller the caliber you are shooting, the more precise you need to be. A scope really opens up the possibilities of a good .22

For the shotgun I am pretty sure the 12 gauge would be an ideal caliber as I am an average sized male. The Remington 870 might be a good choice as they are common all over the world, including Finland, and the availability of accessories and spare parts is pretty good. With a few different chokes and a variety of ammunition it should serve me well for many years, shouldn't it?

Yes it would do well for those purposes.

Although for survival purposes shotguns kind of suck. The limited range would not be much of a problem especially in my environment, but the ammunition weighs a lot and is reasonably expensive.

Also true.

Is it really worth it or can a rifle do all that a shotgun does when it comes to survival?

A good military semi-automatic rifle will do all that and more when it comes to survival. But if that is not an option a pump shotgun is the next best option.

If I, however, do apply, what do you think of the caliber?

7.62x39 or 7.62x51, either bolt action or semi depending on what you are allowed to get. 556 is a perfectly fine round for some things but the edge goes to what YOUR country uses in its military.

Most importantly, which one should I prioritize?

Well....that depends on what your priority is. Grouse hunting and self defense? The 870.

Practice and learning to shoot? the .22

Big game hunting and SHTF survival? The centerfire rifle.

I understand getting a handgun would be very hard for you but if it is even a remote possibility you should explore it. IPSC is excellent training and a lot of fun.

[RCPG83]

Thank you everybody for all the answers I have received!

Ferfal, it is an honor to have you participate into the discussion. Many years ago I read through your blog and the lessons of the Argentinian economic collapse. It was some very good stuff and largely applicable to both Europe and North America. And there are some great wines produced in your country if I may add.

I will definitely look into the IPSC, the IDPA, and domestic alternatives we have. It would be beneficial from both the training aspect and the weapon acquisition aspect. I like Glocks. They are the mainstay of multiple Finnish government agencies, lightweight to carry, and extremely reliable.

Aerindel, I believe it will take a very long time for us to forget all the lessons of the Winter War. The Finnish tabloid press has recently published special editions to commemorate the 80 years from the war. Although if you read the papers, the war makes headlines more or less every year but after like 70, 75, or 80 years from the war they will publish an extra 100 page issue to go together with your daily newspaper.

Although the rumor has it that the de facto weapons policy was loosened after the World War II to maximize the amount of weapons in circulation among the civilian population. I cannot confirm this to be 100 per cent true as the weapons law remained the same from the 1930s until the 1990s but multiple sources tell me that in practice it was loosened here and there.

Now the official policy is, unfortunately, moving to a different direction. Well, I wish we don't have to relearn the hard way like most of the Eastern Europe. Just 20 years ago weapon license registries were decentralized and on the paper to allow quick destruction if need be. Now they are all in a centralized computer database... Definitely a good thing for the occupational safety of our authorities but unfortunately for the Russian military as well.

-----

After more consideration I believe I will be applying for the all three guns previously mentioned at once. When you apply for more than one license at a time you save a bit of money on the additional licenses. Weapon acquisition licenses are valid for 12 months so I will have adequate time to look for good deals (including used guns, some of which go, particularly in the .22, for almost nothing), presuming the police takes it easy on me.

When it comes to the centerfire rifle, I now want to have a .223 semi-automatic. I have checked it and the .223 is powerful enough for all the game I dream of hunting, apart from the wild boar. For defense the .223 is adequate against anything I might conceivably face in this country. While the caliber is not very good for big game, there are neither polar bears not grizzlies in this country, and our brown bears tend to be reasonably small and shy. The .308 would open up future hunting possibilities but considering the initial investment into the rifle and the cost and weight of the ammo the .223 is the only sensible option for my first centerfire rifle. YMMV, and I might consider a larger caliber if I get my application for a semi-automatic denied and told to get a bolt action rifle instead.

[HawkCreek]

I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been mentioned. I just found it interesting to read through the hoops you have to jump through and how it affects what guns you are even trying to get.

[FerFAL]

Originally Posted by RCPG83

Thank you everybody for all the answers I have received!

Ferfal, it is an honor to have you participate into the discussion. Many years ago I read through your blog and the lessons of the Argentinian economic collapse. It was some very good stuff and largely applicable to both Europe and North America. And there are some great wines produced in your country if I may add.

Thanks. Just saying, with a Glock and AR, you're pretty well covered for pretty much anything you're likely to need preparedness wise. Even for hunting, there's quite a bit you can do with a AR, especially if you go with a 300blk rifle instead of 223. For a first gun though, 223 makes more sense.
I suggest IPSC for several reasons.
1)very popular across Europe.
2)You probably need to participate in some sport to own certain guns, IPSC covers it.
3)Its fun.
4)You develope important skills, speed and accuracy. Get to know your gun and ammo well.
5)You'll likely meet many like minded people.

[fx77]

Rem 870 with it you cannot go wrong very reliable
Cannot do better than a Sako or Tika which is very accurate out of the box, and for general use 308 caliber

[mrghostwalker]

Mosin Nagant?

[hoplite59]

Originally Posted by mrghostwalker

Mosin Nagant?

That's what I was thinking. A Finnish M-39 . There has to be a decent supply in Finland.

[Herd Sniper]

I pulled up some information about Finnish Army weapons. It looks like your military forces use weapons that use communist bloc (Russian) ammo. That being the case, you might want to also match your rifle to what your military is also using for "a just in case situation."

Infantry weaponsEdit
Assault rifles:
7.62 RK 95 TP, modernized version of the standard assault rifle, manufactured by SAKO.
7.62 RK 76, modernized version of the standard assault rifle. This version is also in most widespread use, but usually identified as Rk 62.
7.62 RK 72 TP, East German-made AKMS-47 (MPi-KMS-72), purchased in large numbers for reserve troops. Folding stock version is used by various tank, APC and IFV crewmen.
7.62 RK 62, original version of the standard assault rifle, manufactured by Valmet.
7.62 RK 56 and 7.62 RK 56 TP, Chinese-made copies of the AK-47, purchased in large numbers for reserve troops, but not commonly used.
The FDF also used to have original Russian-made AK-47 (7.62 RK 54) and AKS-47 (7.62 RK 54 TP), but these are no longer in use.
Heckler & Koch G36, operated by the border guards rapid response unit.
Machine guns:
7.62 KVKK 62, Finnish-made machine gun, manufactured by Valmet.
7.62 KK PKM, Russian-made PKM machine gun, current standard machine gun in the Finnish army.
7.62 KK PKT, Russian-made PKT machine gun, current standard machine gun in most tanks and IFV's in the Finnish army.
7.62 KK MG3, German-made MG 3, light armament on Leopard 2 tanks and NH90 helicopters.
M123D Minigun, US-made, Gatling-type, multi-barreled 7.62x51 mm NATO calibre machine gun, produced by Dillon Aerospace. It is intended to be used by the Utti Jaeger Brigade as light armament on NH90 helicopters.[18]
12.7 RSKK 2005, American-made M2 Browning machine gun, found on the Patria AMV's Kongsberg weapon turrets.
12.7 ITKK 96, Russian-made NSV machine gun, current standard heavy machine gun of the Finnish Army.
Sniper rifles:
7.62 TKIV 85, sniper rifle made by Valmet, based on the Mosin-Nagant rifle.
7.62 TKIV Dragunov, Russian-made Dragunov sniper rifle.
8.6 TKIV 2000, sniper rifle manufactured by Sako.
12.7 TKIV 2000 US-made .50 calibre Barrett M82A1 sniper rifle.
12.7 TKIV 2000 US-made .50 calibre Barrett M95 sniper rifle.[19]
Pistols & submachine guns:
9.00 PIST 2008, Glock 17 with specially made RTF2 checkering texture around the grip, 20 N (4.5 lbf) trigger pull, self illuminating tritium sights and a 17+2 round magazine.[20]
9.00 PIST 2003, Walther P99, used by special forces and military police.
9.00 KP 2000, Heckler & Koch MP5, used by special forces.
9.00 PIST 80, Belgian-made FN HP-DA pistol.
9.00 PIST 80-91, factory-refurbished PIST 80's.
9.00 PIST SIG-Sauer, peace-keepers and military marching bands.
12 HAUL REM 870, standard shotgun.
Support weapons:
40 KRKK 2005, grenade machine gun, manufactured by Heckler & Koch.
40 KRPIST 2002, grenade launcher, manufactured by Heckler & Koch.
Bilateral trade agreements between Finland and the Soviet Union often included weapons. As a curiosity, many Russian weapons were supplied as a "package". For example, tanks came with AK-47 sidearms for the crew.[citation needed] A large amount of Soviet equipment was also bought from Germany after the German reunification.

My suggestion would be to go with a scoped rifle that shoots a cartridge that is either 7.62 X 39 or 7.62 X 54R in its size. The X39 round will work well out to about 300 yards/meters or so. The 54R cartridge is a decent hunting round in many nations. For the Russians, the 54R round is used as a sniper or designated marksman round.

By going with either a X39 or a X54R round you should be able to get ammo easier where you live and in emergencies too. By going with a scoped rifle you enhance your overall accuracy which means less wasting of ammo and more precise shots too.

[Gary M]

Anything French military. Barely used in like new condition.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Gary M

Anything French military. Barely used in like new condition.

Lol! Never fired, only dropped once!

[Pol]

I suggest you get your .22 first.

[goat daddy]

Only one gun? I would go for a good shotgun. You can vary ammo and take most game and still do close up protection. There is no one gun. A good shotgun is versatile. I would not recommend a center fire rifle until you have a good shotgun and a good 22 bolt action rifle. Arm chair warriors are big on military rifle but as you said, your country is stable.

[FerFAL]

Originally Posted by goat daddy

Only one gun? I would go for a good shotgun. You can vary ammo and take most game and still do close up protection. There is no one gun. A good shotgun is versatile. I would not recommend a center fire rifle until you have a good shotgun and a good 22 bolt action rifle. Arm chair warriors are big on military rifle but as you said, your country is stable.

You know who's also big on military rifles?... the military and every law enfrocement tactical unit in the planet. Just saying.
I get your point though. A good shotgun is a bomb proof reliable too and I sure would get one as well. But I still want a good rifle or centerfire semiauto carbine as well as a handgun.

[AK_guy]

9mm AR and a 9mm Glock.

[cujet]

308 in the AR platform is my minimum HP requirement in both ballistics and the ability to get rounds downrange. In fact, compared to far more capable arms, the lowly 308 is down on power. The 338LM has 5000 LB FT about double a 308 and the 50BMG round has a lofty 14,000 LB FT of energy.

While you may never need to shoot a Nazi locomotive and stop it, other needs can be easily foreseen. Including the need to hunt large game and kill it humanely. I'm mostly concerned with an up-armored government agent behaving badly.

[Rivers]

Originally Posted by RCPG83

When it comes to the centerfire rifle, I now want to have a .223 semi-automatic. I have checked it and the .223 is powerful enough for all the game I dream of hunting, apart from the wild boar. For defense the .223 is adequate against anything I might conceivably face in this country. While the caliber is not very good for big game, there are neither polar bears not grizzlies in this country, and our brown bears tend to be reasonably small and shy. The .308 would open up future hunting possibilities but considering the initial investment into the rifle and the cost and weight of the ammo the .223 is the only sensible option for my first centerfire rifle. YMMV, and I might consider a larger caliber if I get my application for a semi-automatic denied and told to get a bolt action rifle instead.

While you may already be thinking this, a rifle chambered for 5.56mm NATO will fire the .223 round, but not the other way around. Pressure differences between the rounds. So make sure the rifle is stamped as 5.56mm. 5.56mm would likely be much more commonplace in Finland than .223.

Personally, I'd opt for the .308 / 7.62x51 NATO in a good bolt action format. That ammunition should be very available and tailored for many different uses. As for sport use, long range bench shooting would be a challenging recreational activity that should offer some excellent, more diverse training. Of course the 7.62x39mm round will probably be the cheapest but for long range, it won't have the performance of a 7.62x51 NATO. The .308/7.62 also won't burn up barrels like the higher speed 6.5 Creedmoor does. Just something else to consider.