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View Poll Results: SHTF - Which do you grab?
AR15 / M16 type system 168 69.42%
AK-47 or similar system 41 16.94%
M14 type system 33 13.64%
Voters: 242. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-03-2019, 01:11 PM
Plainsman Plainsman is offline
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I voted AR-15 because there were only three choices and its the only one of those three I actually own.

In reality, I have several options and haven’t settled on “one.”

The M1A is on my “to buy” list and would probably supercede the AR choice.
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Old 11-23-2019, 06:44 PM
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Ok, I've updated my selection a bit. I'd have a stainless Ruger GSR with synthetic stock, and several polymer 5rd mags. It would have a Leupold firedot on top of it. I'd also have a G20 with Truglo sights, a .40 barrel, and a 9mm barrel. I'd probably also have a single shot cricket, or similar lightweight break down .22.

GSR is for long range standoff distance, and hunting bigger game. G20 is for close contact, spray a mag and crawl away. Single shot .22 is for the random grouse or rabbit unlucky enough to cross paths with me.

This load out requires me to be quiet, stealthy, and break contact as soon as possible. It's a nice fantasy to win firefights with gangs of multiple bad guys, but I'd rather move at night, and avoid said bad guys. This way, I can lay down some fire if needed, but still be light and fast.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK15-T View Post
Ok, I've updated my selection a bit. I'd have a stainless Ruger GSR with synthetic stock, and several polymer 5rd mags. It would have a Leupold firedot on top of it. I'd also have a G20 with Truglo sights, a .40 barrel, and a 9mm barrel. I'd probably also have a single shot cricket, or similar lightweight break down .22.

GSR is for long range standoff distance, and hunting bigger game. G20 is for close contact, spray a mag and crawl away. Single shot .22 is for the random grouse or rabbit unlucky enough to cross paths with me.

This load out requires me to be quiet, stealthy, and break contact as soon as possible. It's a nice fantasy to win firefights with gangs of multiple bad guys, but I'd rather move at night, and avoid said bad guys. This way, I can lay down some fire if needed, but still be light and fast.
Using 9mm out of the G20 could be problematic. You will get the 10mm mags to feed the 40 cal, even though they are shorter. The plus side is , most people don't even bother with a conversion barrel for 40 from 10mm glock. No changing means no need to carry those extra parts and swaping things around all the time.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:21 AM
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These threads are always fun to think about but impossible to plan for because of the unknowns. If I was going out and coming home every day my decisions would be different. I may carry my 10mm double stack long slide as I can hit mad sized targets readily out to 100 yards but 9mm is a much more practical pistol to carry etc. I have a M1a Scout in a wood stock that is my pride and joy but my Psa pa 10 cost half as much and outshoots the m1a in every way. I love my sidefolder mak90 and would consider it an excellent urban defense tool. My Ar's are just much more practical and accurate. I can carry more ammo and my 18" ar is accurate to 400+ yards. The poll shows the ar as the clear winner for a reason, parts are everywhere.
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Old 11-25-2019, 02:05 PM
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IMHO, something lost in the sauce is a tendency to conflate ideal caliber based ballistic performance with least likely probabilities. In other words, folks latch onto the ideal strengths of a given caliber that match very narrowly imagined scenarios... rather than the most likely events.

Thus, a huge forum focus on incredibly long ranged aimed fire. Or imagined routinely pressing need to reduce vehicles or other intermediate barriers to flimsy cover. Or agonizing over whether one bullet (vs. more bullets) will produce guaranteed faster stops.

And a tendency to equate every SHTF scenario with what might theoretically work better ballistically (rather than logistically) in a military context... then selecting civilian weapons/calibers based upon that faulty assumption.

With rare exception, most folks rolling into some nebulous Post-Apocalyptic, Bug Out, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, or similar scenario... will not have trained & well-exercised numbers of comrades wielding any significant firepower. Certainly not the equivalent of even a functional infantry squad, section, or platoon. Military elements possessed of a filled golf-bag equivalent worth of weaponry & fire support for handling all ranges, threats, dead space, and cover.

Instead, the average Jamoke is going to find themselves either 1) alone, 2) accompanied by a few lightly armed but mostly non-combatant family/friends, or 3) among a group of randomly accumulated acquaintances/strangers clinging to one another in the heat of the moment.

You won't have machine guns, snipers, grenade launchers, rockets, CAS, artillery/mortar fires, grenades, mines, ISR, CASEVAC, trauma medical supplies carried by every single trained individual, tactical radio communications, supporting elements on your flanks, QRF, military grade target acquisition optics, well rehearsed live fire SOPs/Battle Drills, on-call battlefield resupply of anything, real time intel updates, or much of any thing else besides a few small arms distributed among whomever you happen to have with you. Rifles, pistols, shotguns, and fairly limited stocks of carried ammo... and that's about it. Maybe a bit of night vision capability.

Which means you aren't going to have the key ingredients for surviving any sustained fights or successfully determining outcomes much beyond you-to-me engagement distances.

Instead of worrying about whether a "battle rifle" is more appropriate than a "poodle shooter", specious engagements out to the visual horizon, or whether caliber "X" trounces caliber "Y"... you'd be better off planning around your limited logistical wherewithal. In detail.

If you wind up wandering the landscape alone, you are already severely disadvantaged by almost any modestly sized group of similarly armed opponents you encounter. Regardless of your weapon/caliber choice. Because you have no real firepower. No ability to deliver sustained volume of fire, suppress the other guy, or to dictate the terms of fire & maneuver. Especially during discretionary withdrawal (otherwise known as Breaking Contact, Retreat, or "Run Away"). You ain't got the rounds carried by an infantry squad. Or the means of resupply.

If you are actually a highly skilled and experienced long distance combat marksman (there's a few on this board)... or your MAG is an exceptionally well-honed outfit trained to actual infantry level skills... then Good for You. But I'll bet that damn few are actually at that level of competence or equipage. Fewer still among the people that will randomly wind up orbiting you during a time of need.

Walking with your family (including kids) towards some distant BOL is not the same thing as defending your old COP in the Hindu Kush... or moving to contact in Ramadi with your infantry buddies.

Better have guns & ammo loads that you can effectively carry (all day long... for many days) while also encumbered by all the other shiznit you need (backpacks, food, water, shelter, weak link people, etc.). Guns that allow you to establish at least momentary fire superiority at ranges from muzzle to ~300 yards. The zone where >90% of all trouble actually occurs... on almost all battlefields... for all of human shootout history.

And if anyone is shooting at you, for any reason, you are on a battlefield. However tiny or transitory. Your very own personal conflict.

Outside of Immediate Threat engagements (inside of a few yards), successful gun fights are mostly a Team Sport. More about Logistics, Fire & Maneuver, and Violence of Action than widget selection. Also about which side has the better ability to own the night and hit effectively in the dark. And about who can lay down a heavier volume of effective fire. Forcing the other guy to play defense... or disengage.

If you are alone, you have to make up for that firepower shortfall (the armed & well-oiled backup you don't actually have with you). The only way to effectively do that is to carry more ammo for a very portable fast firing rifle. Not less.

There's a reason that combat troops utilize ACE Reports. Running low on ammo is a bad place to be. You only rarely get to dictate the terms of a fight... or how much shooting needs to be done.

Perfect is the Enemy of Good Enough.
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Old 11-25-2019, 06:03 PM
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ONE Of my best buds is a C3 with several ground guns and bunches of subs and auto rifles...

If lead time allowed for us to make a hook up(he lives at the other end of the state) the hard decision would be which belt fed to put on top .
The 1917 watercooled will run forever, but the FN MAg is just so much more portable and really kewl for laying lead.

I already called "DIBS" on the M1A1 Thompson.
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Old 11-25-2019, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
IMHO, something lost in the sauce is a tendency to conflate ideal caliber based ballistic performance with least likely probabilities. In other words, folks latch onto the ideal strengths of a given caliber that match very narrowly imagined scenarios... rather than the most likely events.

Thus, a huge forum focus on incredibly long ranged aimed fire. Or imagined routinely pressing need to reduce vehicles or other intermediate barriers to flimsy cover. Or agonizing over whether one bullet (vs. more bullets) will produce guaranteed faster stops.

And a tendency to equate every SHTF scenario with what might theoretically work better ballistically (rather than logistically) in a military context... then selecting civilian weapons/calibers based upon that faulty assumption.

With rare exception, most folks rolling into some nebulous Post-Apocalyptic, Bug Out, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, or similar scenario... will not have trained & well-exercised numbers of comrades wielding any significant firepower. Certainly not the equivalent of even a functional infantry squad, section, or platoon. Military elements possessed of a filled golf-bag equivalent worth of weaponry & fire support for handling all ranges, threats, dead space, and cover.

Instead, the average Jamoke is going to find themselves either 1) alone, 2) accompanied by a few lightly armed but mostly non-combatant family/friends, or 3) among a group of randomly accumulated acquaintances/strangers clinging to one another in the heat of the moment.

You won't have machine guns, snipers, grenade launchers, rockets, CAS, artillery/mortar fires, grenades, mines, ISR, CASEVAC, trauma medical supplies carried by every single trained individual, tactical radio communications, supporting elements on your flanks, QRF, military grade target acquisition optics, well rehearsed live fire SOPs/Battle Drills, on-call battlefield resupply of anything, real time intel updates, or much of any thing else besides a few small arms distributed among whomever you happen to have with you. Rifles, pistols, shotguns, and fairly limited stocks of carried ammo... and that's about it. Maybe a bit of night vision capability.

Which means you aren't going to have the key ingredients for surviving any sustained fights or successfully determining outcomes much beyond you-to-me engagement distances.

Instead of worrying about whether a "battle rifle" is more appropriate than a "poodle shooter", specious engagements out to the visual horizon, or whether caliber "X" trounces caliber "Y"... you'd be better off planning around your limited logistical wherewithal. In detail.

If you wind up wandering the landscape alone, you are already severely disadvantaged by almost any modestly sized group of similarly armed opponents you encounter. Regardless of your weapon/caliber choice. Because you have no real firepower. No ability to deliver sustained volume of fire, suppress the other guy, or to dictate the terms of fire & maneuver. Especially during discretionary withdrawal (otherwise known as Breaking Contact, Retreat, or "Run Away"). You ain't got the rounds carried by an infantry squad. Or the means of resupply.

If you are actually a highly skilled and experienced long distance combat marksman (there's a few on this board)... or your MAG is an exceptionally well-honed outfit trained to actual infantry level skills... then Good for You. But I'll bet that damn few are actually at that level of competence or equipage. Fewer still among the people that will randomly wind up orbiting you during a time of need.

Walking with your family (including kids) towards some distant BOL is not the same thing as defending your old COP in the Hindu Kush... or moving to contact in Ramadi with your infantry buddies.

Better have guns & ammo loads that you can effectively carry (all day long... for many days) while also encumbered by all the other shiznit you need (backpacks, food, water, shelter, weak link people, etc.). Guns that allow you to establish at least momentary fire superiority at ranges from muzzle to ~300 yards. The zone where >90% of all trouble actually occurs... on almost all battlefields... for all of human shootout history.

And if anyone is shooting at you, for any reason, you are on a battlefield. However tiny or transitory. Your very own personal conflict.

Outside of Immediate Threat engagements (inside of a few yards), successful gun fights are mostly a Team Sport. More about Logistics, Fire & Maneuver, and Violence of Action than widget selection. Also about which side has the better ability to own the night and hit effectively in the dark. And about who can lay down a heavier volume of effective fire. Forcing the other guy to play defense... or disengage.

If you are alone, you have to make up for that firepower shortfall (the armed & well-oiled backup you don't actually have with you). The only way to effectively do that is to carry more ammo for a very portable fast firing rifle. Not less.

There's a reason that combat troops utilize ACE Reports. Running low on ammo is a bad place to be. You only rarely get to dictate the terms of a fight... or how much shooting needs to be done.

Perfect is the Enemy of Good Enough.
You take your facts, common sense, and experience elsewhere Astronomy! This is the land of mall cops where reading some Dusty Bones posts and playing CoD is all it takes to be ready for TEOTWAWKI.



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Old 11-25-2019, 08:23 PM
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my go to SHTF rifle is a M1 Garand scout rifle that i built.

it has mil-dot scope with high mount rings that allow me to use the irons out to 1200 yards and the scope out to 600 yards.

try that with a AK or a AR.
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Old 11-25-2019, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augoldminer View Post
my go to SHTF rifle is a M1 Garand scout rifle that i built.

it has mil-dot scope with high mount rings that allow me to use the irons out to 1200 yards and the scope out to 600 yards.

try that with a AK or a AR.
How'd you mount your scope? Traditional side mount?
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Old 11-25-2019, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
You take your facts, common sense, and experience elsewhere Astronomy! This is the land of mall cops where reading some Dusty Bones posts and playing CoD is all it takes to be ready for TEOTWAWKI.



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Now Forged , ease off on old DB some he is my OK just gets riled up sometimes , now he and I both like the Ruger Mini--14 , of course I post pics or should I say PK has posted some of my hunting exploits and as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. LOL and S/FI! Brother. Now it maybe me but you seem to be in a better place Brother and for that I am happy for you and I hope you have a Great Thanksgiving! S/FI! Funny Pics too
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Old 11-25-2019, 10:58 PM
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Just an old Navy guy here, we saw, meaning we heard about how well Libyan jets turn into fireballs. Since we were anchored at Diego Garcia on a 45 year old tender at the time, we were happy to hear it. The most action I've seen is the whore houses in Olongapo city. With that being said, let me say this. My guns have to do a lot more than self defense, so, since the .22 calibers (including .223 and 5.56) are illegal for big game, I've never even picked up an AR15 in the gun shop. I have shot a buddies AK, it reminded me of my .54 muzzleloader. Coulda been all the wax on the stock and oil on metal, just reminded me of black powder grime. It was fun to shoot though. So as I stated, I was in the Navy, we qualified with M-14s. Ships security team used M-14s and .45s, yes even in the late '70s early '80s. So my training, although nothing like the Marines training, still influenced my decisions. Along with the opinions of my brother and several friends who were sea going bell hops at the same time and a couple of uncles that served in Vietnam. So I would grab my M1A Scout. Along with ammo, I would also grab my spotting scope. I'm afraid I think more along the lines of Nomad when it comes to stopping power. I grew up listening to stories of why the military switched from .38s to .45s etc. A lot of it stuck with me. Like I said before, my guns need to do more than protect the ranch from bad guys. My .22 mag slaughters goats, hogs & steers as well as varmints like jack rabbits, coons, ground squirrels, fox & yotes. My turkey gun sits next to the bed. Not because of the bs theory that racking a round will scare a bad guy but because theres always a round in the chamber and the bedroom window over looks the driveway where the wild turkeys hang out during the season, and because theres always a round chambered so I dont have to rack it if a bad guy comes in the house. Last year i took both of my deer with my ruger vaquero .45lc at the pasture gate. They both dropped in their tracks.
I look at stopping power in 2 ways that are basically the same. When slaughtering animals on the ranch and hunting, quality of meat is in my opinion determined largely by the state of mind the animal is in when its brain ceases to function. A happy animal is an eating animal and a happy animal doesnt have hormones like adrenaline coursing through its body. Therefore if it's dead and doesnt hear the shot, plus 1. Basically the same thing with self defense, if the bad guy is dead or completely disabled with the first shot, without understanding how it happened, then I'm a happy animal. Another reason I would grab the M1A is that where I live is brush country. That's not to say there isnt open ground, but with the heavier caliber, brush is a bit easier to deal with. If a distant threat is spotted in the open it can deal with that also. With no real world experience I could be wrong, but in my opinion part of prepping should be gathering as much first hand supported information as possible to be as prepared as possible. In a red dawn shtf situation, if you have to worry about which gun you're going to grab, you're probably already in trouble.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlrhiner View Post
How'd you mount your scope? Traditional side mount?
IF IT isn't a side mount or a forward "scout type" mount... he is gonna have a hard time feeding the clips into it.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augoldminer View Post
my go to SHTF rifle is a M1 Garand scout rifle that i built.

it has mil-dot scope with high mount rings that allow me to use the irons out to 1200 yards and the scope out to 600 yards.

try that with a AK or a AR.
CLARIFICATION QUESTION...

Don't you mean the other way around...scope out to 1200 and irons to 600
maybe
both for 1200???
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augoldminer View Post
my go to SHTF rifle is a M1 Garand scout rifle that i built.

it has mil-dot scope with high mount rings that allow me to use the irons out to 1200 yards and the scope out to 600 yards.

try that with a AK or a AR.
would love to see some pics of your M1
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:51 AM
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over time my opinion has evolved on this

weight of ammo and gun, practical engagement distances under 300 yards, proven track record, and -discretion-

my current choice is a pistol-braced 10.5" AR-15 with a suppressor and an acog or similar sight co-witnessed with MBUIS

breaks down in 2 pieces to fit in a discrete bag I can carry every day if I want

there's a lot of capability there for not much compromise
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Old 11-26-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
IF IT isn't a side mount or a forward "scout type" mount... he is gonna have a hard time feeding the clips into it.
Point being, with the side mounted scope, the iron sights are available for use. No need for "high mount rings". That implies some other type of mount.
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Old 11-26-2019, 12:29 PM
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would love to see some pics of your M1
That's what she said.

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Old 11-27-2019, 12:37 PM
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" You can only grab one rifle: Which do you take? "

I live in the desert, with long , open space in all directions. I would take my Mossberg Patriot, 6.5 creedmoor, Bipod, 6x20x50 scope.
It's fairly lightweight, yet accurately shoots 1000 yards. Ammo is lightweight. A lot of ammo can be carried, yet it's powerful enough to leave a "nasty scar" on an adversary.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlrhiner View Post
How'd you mount your scope? Traditional side mount?
long eye relief scope mounted forward of the action.

http://www.amegamounts.com/product_pages/m1garand.php

i also put a muzzle break adapter and custom muzzle break on the M1
https://www.ebay.com/itm/M1-Garand-M...-/152253958551

I also live in the desert, with long , open space in all directions.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:58 PM
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An AR47 Mutant isn't on the voting list.......


.....
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