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Old 07-12-2019, 08:05 AM
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Doctors, nurses, health care workers, medication, etc., are all fighting the same devil as the Body of Christ. They may not know it. But thak God for their help.
Yet, Doctors, nurses, health care workers, medication are not studying theology. Odd huh?

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Even Jesus was restrained by a lack of faith.
Again, giving credibility to why not to believe. By contrast, the air bag in our cars deploys, whether we believe it or not. Bacteria and virus attack whether we believe in them or not. Because we see mediations work, we believe in them. Not the other way around.

It is EXACTLY this way of thinking that turns people off; only gullible people who already believe psychics take their performances as real. Psychics don't like to be tested. And what you are saying is neither does the son of God. A faith or God that is adverse to being tested? Hence, the contempt for such blind faith.

I rather think Jesus did not perform miracles in his home town because their lack of appreciation. They lacked gratitude because of their lack of faith, yes. Said differently, I like to think this was a very human side of Jesus, choosing not to perform miracles for scoffers. The whole idea that a lack of faith stops an all-powerful God causes scoffing. (I believe God is greater than my doctor, who can give medications that stop an infection, independent of my belief in it).
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:38 AM
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The Rejection at Nazareth

…4Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is without honor only in his hometown, among his relatives, and in his own household.” [B]5So He could not perform any miracles there, except to lay His hands on a few of the sick and heal them. 6And He was amazed at their unbelief.
Mark 6:5 is poorly worded as it goes against the idea of an all-powerful son of God. Yet, he cannot do something? This goes against the idea in the song that Jesus will 'tear down any wall to come after me.' Seems more to me that he chooses not to do things if his non-negotiable conditions are not met. Big difference! In verse 6, I'm amazed that an all-knowing being would or could be amazed.

It does not speak well for our mediator, our fully human mediator to utterly fail to grasp people tend to believe what we observe. And the converse is also true; people tend to not believe what they do not observe. What is so amazing about it? The VOICE translation implies his lack of performing miracles was a punishment (or consequence) for their stubbornness - not a cause for his inability to perform.

6 He was amazed by the stubbornness of their unbelief. Jesus went out among the villages teaching,
Mark 6:6 (VOICE)


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You type so much, but add so little. In fact you are a detriment to Saints as you do not believe but continue to spout-off much nonsense and the more you type, the more your ignorance of Christianity shows. Sad that you relish your rejection of Jesus.
LOL. I reject the modern wimpy, feminized portrayal of Jesus. This article does a pretty good job of expressing this crisis of masculinity, Men won’t follow a Lady with a Beard
More to the point: Jesus was not female or feminine, and it can be argued that images that portray Him as such are blasphemous (CCC 2148) for it denigrates Jesus Christ. It misrepresents Our Lord in material ways, ways that Satan would certainly approve.

Still not convinced that there are serious attempts to feminize Jesus Christ? Here is the result of the National Catholic Reporter’s effort to give Jesus a “facelift” for the turn of the millennium. This image, chosen by some perverse and confused process was modeled on the image of a sub-Saharan black African woman (note: Jesus was Jewish not Gentile, Israelite and not African, white/Mediterranean and not sub-Saharan black, and a/The Man and not a woman):
Jesus is a savior, who gave his life to save us. This is a very masculine trait. And this demanding, masculine trait of Jesus is conveyed beautifully when he criticized Peter - who got out of the boat and walked on water - for having a lack of faith! If Peter could bind things on Earth, having subsequent Popes also be able to walk on water would be compelling reason to believe.

I'm not backing away from the very good reason people do not have faith. 1st century people saw many miracles, THEN they believed. Not too many miracles today ...
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:43 AM
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The true believer has faith without the need for seeing miracles. Yet they may be rewarded with them.

The non-believer requires miracles for proof that they should believe. No faith required. The exact opposite of what Jesus asked.

Spirituality and Transendence are more important than any physical "proof" for Faith.

The oft repeated quote still holds.

For those with Faith, no explanation (proof) is necessary. For those without Faith, no explanation (proof) is possible.
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Old 07-14-2019, 04:01 PM
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This is a great movie I checked out over the weekend. Omar Sharif, as Peter, was compelling.

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Old 07-14-2019, 11:37 PM
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Regarding the current Bishop of Rome, he was born in Argentina.

Regarding miracles, no particular person, group or earthly organization has a monopoly on working or witnessing miracles. Physical healing takes place often and everywhere. For what it’s worth, most of those can properly be credited to medical science.

True miracles are not as nearly as common, nor are they always easy to recognize. Sometimes the results become evident over a period of time. Nonetheless, I have personally witnessed several undeniable miracles every year.
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Old 07-15-2019, 10:58 AM
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Regarding the current Bishop of Rome, he was born in Argentina.
Does this mean something? I've seen it mentioned a few times here.

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Regarding miracles, no particular person, group or earthly organization has a monopoly on working or witnessing miracles. Physical healing takes place often and everywhere. For what it’s worth, most of those can properly be credited to medical science.
No one on Earth works miracles. They all come by the Will of God. And while there is certainly not a monopoly by anyone or organization, the documented and witnessed inexplicable healings and cures that occur at Catholic Shrines around the world cannot be denied. Add to that those which happen by specific devotions to and requests of Saints for intercessions to Jesus, the numbers are quite large. (As an FYI, the Church is hugely careful and painstaking before declaring that a Miracle occurred. Concurrence of a panel of doctors that there was no medical explanation, the healing must be total, and it must be permanent. No recurrence after 7 years, among other criteria.)

If anyone is curious, there's a guy named Michael O'Neill who has devoted his life to researching the subject, complete with backstories. Calls himself the "Miracle Hunter" Www.miraclehunter.com

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True miracles are not as nearly as common, nor are they always easy to recognize. Sometimes the results become evident over a period of time. Nonetheless, I have personally witnessed several undeniable miracles every year.
Miracles by definition are actions which simply cannot be explained by human means. We can attribute things like "It's a miracle that the falling piano missed him!", to "I miraculously passed the test!", but those things are quite subjective and unprovable. Doesn't mean there wasn't some Divine intervention, but unprovable. But the ones like complete disappearance of Stage IV cancer, or a child's atrophied legs healing totally, are easily proven.

There is no doubt that Jesus can and will respond to anyone asking His help, and I'm sure that many outside the Church have received physical healings just like those above. But you simply cannot deny the profusion of such at those Holy Shrines of the Virgin Mary and those of the Saints.

Of course, it's easy to say "Nah, it can't be true so I won't even check it out."
So be it. Much like Protestants who deny Tradition. Denying truth never ends well.
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:30 PM
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The Roman Pope, Francis I, claims to be from Argentina. That's a matter of record announced by the Church. I have no reason to doubt this report. Do you?

I believe that miracles happen every day. Most of them have nothing to do with shrines of any type. Some folks NEED miracles. And a whole "miracle industrial complex" has been established to feed that need. The high profile nature of some of these, combined with the rush to get word to the media would generally make me less likely to believe.

Have you witnessed miracles yourself?
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:47 PM
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The Roman Pope, Francis I, claims to be from Argentina. That's a matter of record announced by the Church. I have no reason to doubt this report. Do you?
Don't doubt it a bit. But if you read the OP, it had nothing to do with the current Pope's birthplace.

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I believe that miracles happen every day. Most of them have nothing to do with shrines of any type. Some folks NEED miracles. And a whole "miracle industrial complex" has been established to feed that need. The high profile nature of some of these, combined with the rush to get word to the media would generally make me less likely to believe.
So you make a claim. Please supply the empirical evidence on which you base your assertion. You know that you cannot. You assume the validity of your statements based on, well, nothing.

Precisely what do you mean when you say that "some folks NEED miracles"?
Are you saying that without the evidence of miracles, some folks would stop believing in God? Attending church? *gasp* Being Catholic? Please explain.

And your implication that there is a "miracle industrial complex" within the RCC is just ignorant. If you only knew how many reports of apparitions and/or miracles are received by the local Ordinaries, it's mind boggling. They go to an extreme trying to disprove every claim. For example, if a medical miracle is claimed, a panel of doctors have to agree that there could be absolutely no medical reason for the cure, it must be a complete and total cure, and it won't be accepted until at least 7 years have passed with no reoccurrence. Of course if you'd take the time to peruse that website, all of your questions would most likely be answered.

Oh, and which ones do you consider high profile, and how were they rushed to get word to what media?

I will say this again. If there were NO miracles, it would have no impact on any true Catholic's Faith. However, we also believe in the Communion of Saints and the efficacy of asking them for help, and for sure the graces received when we honor the Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, and ask her for her intercessory prayers on our behalf.

And it works!

"Ask and you shall receive". "Knock and the door will be opened for you". "Seek and you shall find". "Ask anything of the Father in my Name, and it shall be granted". "Heaven and Earth shall pass, but my words shall never pass".

What part of Jesus wants us to rely totally on Him and ask for anything! don't you understand?

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Have you witnessed miracles yourself?
Of course I have. Being a believer, however, puts my threshold pretty low. Is it a miracle if the falling piano just misses someone on the sidewalk? Is it a miracle if you pass a test with absolutely no studying? How about coasting into the gas station just as the car sputters and dies? How about my Dad being the only survivor of a plane crash during WW II, albeit with a broken back? I think they're all because of Divine intervention. The sceptic calls them luck, or coincidence. But when a cancer literally disappears completely from a person after a visit to Tepeyac or Fatima, or a kid with MD gets out of the wheelchair and walks while visiting a shrine, THAT'S where the rubber meets the road. And BTW, these cures never happen on a stage, none of the on camera staged "miracles" the evangelical preachers put on. They are always between the curer and curee, with only their caretakers maybe knowing what's happening.
Don't be afraid. Take the time to look at the website before making judgments. It isn't Church sponsored in any way. Just a guy who has the time and talent to collate what appears to be supernatural in nature.

Personally, I'll say this. Just as many on the Boards here have attested to, I KNOW I've been the beneficiary of literally countless interventions, both small and large. St. Joseph helps me in my shop. Zero doubt in my mind. Among other things, 30+ years using every type of saw imaginable and never even trimming a fingernail? But about 6 mo. ago, I witnessed something which simply could not be attributed to anything but Divine action. And it was the silliest little non-important, non-critical thing in the world. The only effect this action had was to just poke me. I didn't ask for it. Wouldn't have even thought of it. But I didn't blink an eye. I just smiled, looked up, and said "Thanks!"


So, if you want to be sceptical, I can understand. But don't say stuff without proof.

We've got lots of proof.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:02 PM
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Don't doubt it a bit. But if you read the OP, it had nothing to do with the current Pope's birthplace.
... and so forth ...
Now that we've got the Pope's nationality resolved, there is little disagreement between us.

To clarify what I have already written, I will revise and extend my remarks as such:

To my mind, a miracle is a divine intervention in the events of the physical world. I firmly believe miracles can involve any person, at any time, in any place. The results of a genuine miracle may not be positive for everyone involved. The ultimate result may not be evident for years, and those results may be subtle.

I believe miracles occur on a regular basis. I have personally witnessed, and continue to witness such events every year. I firmly believe that they are authentic miracles. I need no church investigation to make things official. Orthodoxy does not do that. Regarding such matters, the Church, since Apostolic times has encouraged discernment and sobriety. Not blind publicity of what may be an entirely different sort of "miracle".

It is useful to remember that the Enemy still wields considerable power of deception, deceit and chicanery in this fallen world. He is expert at his craft and has tricked better men than you and I. Just saying.

Kyrie Eleison.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:18 PM
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Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to what is good.

You will know them by their fruits.


Why are you so afraid?

Just to be clear...are you going to read anything on that website?
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:06 AM
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Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to what is good.

You will know them by their fruits.

Why are you so afraid?

Just to be clear...are you going to read anything on that website?
Why am I so afraid? Kyrie Eleison. As my life grows short, I am afraid that I will not have time to properly repent of my sins. I can think of no better reason.

I have heard Malachi referred to as the "Seal of Prophets". I personally regard John the Baptist as the last Christian prophet. The fruit of John's prophesy was Jesus Christ, God incarnate. Do you suggest that there are more recent prophets? Within the context of our salvation, what on earth could they possibly add?

I am logged onto the Miracle Hunter site right now. I regret that I find little of interest. I was RC for many years. I was not an adult convert. I learned about the miracles of Lourdes and Fatima as an elementary school student. I never rejected them then, nor do I reject them now. I never needed proof that they were not bogus. I trusted the RCC because it positioned itself as the Body of Christ on earth. In my view there was no higher authority on matters of faith and morals.

Are you a convert?
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:11 AM
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This is a great movie I checked out over the weekend. Omar Sharif, as Peter, was compelling.

The movie portrayed Peter, the rock, who I always took as a hard man (causing couple to drop dead), as a soft and compassionate man much older than the other apostles. He could not read (making me wonder about the author in the Bible). The movie repeatedly depicted people in Jerusalem and Rome begging Peter to lead them and teach them.

Not sure how accurate it was but they portrayed a lot more interaction between Paul and Peter than the Bible relates.

One other thing; the movies subtitle, “one man sacrificed so many could be saved”, although an allusion to Jesus is a reference to Peter’s crucifixion. Nearly all the Christians iwho did not flee Rome were in jail. When Peter turned back to go to Rome and turned himself in, Nero showed mercy to his followers and released them.
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:32 AM
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Why am I so afraid? Kyrie Eleison. As my life grows short, I am afraid that I will not have time to properly repent of my sins. I can think of no better reason.

I have heard Malachi referred to as the "Seal of Prophets". I personally regard John the Baptist as the last Christian prophet. The fruit of John's prophesy was Jesus Christ, God incarnate. Do you suggest that there are more recent prophets? Within the context of our salvation, what on earth could they possibly add?

I am logged onto the Miracle Hunter site right now. I regret that I find little of interest. I was RC for many years. I was not an adult convert. I learned about the miracles of Lourdes and Fatima as an elementary school student. I never rejected them then, nor do I reject them now. I never needed proof that they were not bogus. I trusted the RCC because it positioned itself as the Body of Christ on earth. In my view there was no higher authority on matters of faith and morals.

Are you a convert?
Modern prophecy is more oriented towards applying the words and will of Jesus to the current times. There are many who have received private revelations over the years. Those that do bring their knowledge to the local Bishop who takes the time to learn precisely the details. There are so many hoops to jump through before the Bishop ultimately passes judgment, and those whose visions or messages are judged worthy of belief are then approved to pass the knowledge on. Almost always, these do not become mass communications throughout the Church, nor does the Vatican pass judgement. Private revelations are never required to be accepted by the Laity.
The thing is, virtually all modern messages, from at least Fatima, are saying the same things. Calling for repentance, reparation, prayer and fasting to set aside or at least mitigate the coming "attitude adjustment". St. Faustina lays it out pretty well in her diaries the combination of Jesus' great desire to extend mercy to all who ask for it, but with the admonition that after the time of Mercy, there will be the time of Judgment. Most of the other approved seers say similar things, with many pointing to the signs that are already starting.
Anyway, regardless of this, my question to you would be why you think that God would stop communicating with His people by the same method He used for Millenia? Why would Jesus not continue to exhort His children, His fellow people, to straighten up and fly right? To think that they would effectively go silent on us 2,000 years ago with nothing but a book written for and about ancient times just doesn't pass the sniff test. You don't send your only begotten Son to suffer and die for Humanity and then shut off communication with that same Humanity.
My take on it. If your interested, I've got a decent source who keeps track of many of the private revelations, with great tie-ins to Scripture.

As to me, I'm a revert. Born and raised in the Faith, went away from it in college, did stupid things, flirted with Methodism, and finally through a lot of prayer was led back. Couldn't be happier.
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Old 07-17-2019, 04:47 PM
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I heard that there is an excellent Orthodox parish in the Riverside area. Have you had the opportunity to check it out?

https://www.saintandrew.net/
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:05 PM
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I am from Riverside
That is a fine looking church
Especially for newer construction
I have driven by it many, many times
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:43 PM
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I heard that there is an excellent Orthodox parish in the Riverside area. Have you had the opportunity to check it out?

https://www.saintandrew.net/

Yup, it's gorgeous. We attended St. Andrew's Feast Day celebration a couple of years ago. They put on quite a party, and of course, the food!
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:52 PM
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I am from Riverside
That is a fine looking church
Especially for newer construction
I have driven by it many, many times
So you live close by? It is my understanding that the church temple was recently completed in 2011. Actually modeled after a World Heritage Site in Greece. Such a traditional look for a modern church.

On their web home page there is a MEDIA tab that leads to a series of informative YouTube vids where the pastor gives a tour of the church interior, explaining the various features and their significance in Orthodox worship.

Ever attended a service there?
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:02 PM
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For most of my life
I left California five years ago
No, I never attended a service
My aunt who is Roman Catholic liked the building and went in and inquired about attendance
Unfortunately, there is no current communion between the denominations
So that was a no go
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:06 PM
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Yup, it's gorgeous. We attended St. Andrew's Feast Day celebration a couple of years ago. They put on quite a party, and of course, the food!
So you were able to attend an Orthodox Liturgy there? Was the English language used throughout the service? How did the experience compare to a contemporary RC Sunday Mass?
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:36 PM
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So you were able to attend an Orthodox Liturgy there? Was the English language used throughout the service? How did the experience compare to a contemporary RC Sunday Mass?

All good questions. But honestly, we went to 1) eat, 2) got a little tour and peek inside, and 3) eat.

We did not attend a service. I'm going to guess that English is the lingua Franca, as there is virtually no Greek community here that I know of.
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