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Old 08-13-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
What's really over the top is why they suppose she had to REMAIN a virgin after being married - and having children.
I have no biblical idea why or how anyone could come to that conclusion. Highly unlikely. Then of course, why would it matter? The gospel message isn't about Mary and there is very little scriptural focus on her.
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
I have no biblical idea why or how anyone could come to that conclusion.
So basically you can present yourself as "biblically agnostic"

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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Highly unlikely.
Why? Your experience with women is that they are mostly horny and perverts?

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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Then of course, why would it matter?
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
Approximately 19% of the popes were evil, or represents those that were caught being evil. Some argue that God could work through the evil popes to keep the catholic church alive, and I know that an all powerful God can do that.

Every Pope is/was a sinful human being, just like the rest of us.

Like every other public figure, the more scrutiny on conduct, and also the more influence, with which to wield and effect for good or evil.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
I have no biblical idea why or how anyone could come to that conclusion. Highly unlikely. Then of course, why would it matter? The gospel message isn't about Mary and there is very little scriptural focus on her.
Right thinking always matters. Contrary to cats post, Scripture does tell us Jesus has brothers and sisters. One, James, was not only a church leader but a NT author.

To miss something this blatant can only happen when you are working hard at it.

The predictable fall back position is the verses in question are not to be taken literally. These same non-literal advocates literally hold 1= 3. So, there is that.
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Right thinking always matters. Contrary to cats post, Scripture does tell us Jesus has brothers and sisters. One, James, was not only a church leader but a NT author.

To miss something this blatant can only happen when you are working hard at it.

The predictable fall back position is the verses in question are not to be taken literally. These same non-literal advocates literally hold 1= 3. So, there is that.
Appears overwhelmingly evident. I have no idea why some object...unless there is some unbiblical agenda to sustain some nutty post-Apostle writings claiming otherwise.

Yet another reason for Solo Scriptura. DO NOT EXCEED what is written!
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:23 PM
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So if Mary had other children, why did Jesus expend His last words hanging on the cross telling John to behold his mother, and Mary to behold her son, and from that day, John took her in to his home? There is no way that a mother would not be taken care of by her children..completely antithetical to Jewish tradition.
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:00 PM
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So if Mary had other children, why did Jesus expend His last words hanging on the cross telling John to behold his mother, and Mary to behold her son, and from that day, John took her in to his home? There is no way that a mother would not be taken care of by her children..completely antithetical to Jewish tradition.
We simply don't know, we could guess in about a hundred directions but why would it matter?

Just taking a wild guess, John was, as it says in this context, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" Maybe He highly favored Him? Maybe the other weren't able, maybe there was spiritual concerns and on and on. But that was the choice of Jesus.

We certainly see His great humility and responsiveness to the leading of the Spirit in his gospel and his epistles. And John, of course, lived longer than any of the rest, maybe that had been apart of His choice. We don't know.

For all the reasons, John seems to have been the best choice and indeed the perfect choice to look after Mary after Jesus left. We can only guess.

Also Jesus brothers didn't believe in him (John 7:5) until after the resurrection.

Why is there any issue that Mary had other children? I must be missing something?
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Why is there any issue that Mary had other children? I must be missing something?
You said it well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
...some unbiblical agenda to sustain some nutty post-Apostle writings claiming otherwise.

Yet another reason for Solo Scriptura. DO NOT EXCEED what is written!
The collectivists made up tradition is summarized with their saying 'the ever virgin Mary.' Poor Joseph. Not too many marriages involve a life time commitment to no sex. One virgin birth OK. But given brother(s) and sister(s) of Jesus noted in Scripture, it is just ridiculous.

It should be enough that Mary was a young, Godly woman chosen by God. The RCC are known for their obsession with sacrifice. So, imagining a married woman with several sons and daughters could ENJOY the blessings of Holy Matrimony is beyond the pale.
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
NO SIR.

According to Christian tradition, she WAS a virgin.

Why do you think she HAD to be a virgin?
Because

Quote:
Isaiah 7:14 says.

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin[b] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel.[d]
The NT quotes uses the same wording as the Greek Septuagint. Which makes this a messianic prophecy.
Quote:
Matthew 1:23
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
=PeterEnergy;19709058]You said it well.
It's like debating what kind of sandals Jesus wore The scriptures make no emphasis on this so why should we???


Quote:
The collectivists made up tradition is summarized with their saying 'the ever virgin Mary.' Poor Joseph. Not too many marriages involve a life time commitment to no sex. One virgin birth OK. But given brother(s) and sister(s) of Jesus noted in Scripture, it is just ridiculous.

It should be enough that Mary was a young, Godly woman chosen by God. The RCC are known for their obsession with sacrifice. So, imagining a married woman with several sons and daughters could ENJOY the blessings of Holy Matrimony is beyond the pale.
Okay, I see this now. I looked it up on "Catholic Answers" to see was going on. The moment I read the word "tradition" I knew this issue was in the deep hole of fairyland nonsense. Little wonder why Jesus talked so much against traditions even saying they made the word of God to no effect.

At this point it makes no sense to even talk about. If a tradition in 350AD said it was so....then
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Appears overwhelmingly evident. I have no idea why some object...unless there is some unbiblical agenda to sustain some nutty post-Apostle writings claiming otherwise.

Yet another reason for Solo Scriptura. DO NOT EXCEED what is written!
I've seen what happens when people get around the ark and it isnt pretty.



Considering that Mary is the "new ark" it would make sense that she was a perpetual virgin.

The nutty post apostle Christians did form the bible so they do have that going for them.
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
The RCC are known for their obsession with sacrifice.
Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts



Yeah... we pretty much fulfill this prophecy.
(The sacrifice is Jesus Btw)
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Old 08-13-2019, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
We simply don't know, we could guess in about a hundred directions but why would it matter?

Just taking a wild guess, John was, as it says in this context, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" Maybe He highly favored Him? Maybe the other weren't able, maybe there was spiritual concerns and on and on. But that was the choice of Jesus.

We certainly see His great humility and responsiveness to the leading of the Spirit in his gospel and his epistles. And John, of course, lived longer than any of the rest, maybe that had been apart of His choice. We don't know.

For all the reasons, John seems to have been the best choice and indeed the perfect choice to look after Mary after Jesus left. We can only guess.

Also Jesus brothers didn't believe in him (John 7:5) until after the resurrection.

Why is there any issue that Mary had other children? I must be missing something?
You miss the point.

If Mary had any other living children, they would've immediately taken her in. Absolute Jewish standard. It would be unheard of to expect a non-relative, no matter how special, to care for someone else's mother.

Second, even assuming Jesus had siblings , whether they believed He was the Christ or not would not change their belief in Jesus the brother, nor abdicate their familial responsibility.

Third, consider what additional heresies would've sprung up if there were "documented brothers" of Jesus. How long would it be before somebody started a worship cult over the sibs? Look what the Gnostics did without additional fodder.

Fourth, look up His "brothers", among which are the "Sons of Thunder". So who asked Jesus for them to sit at His right hand?

Fifth, study up on both Aramaic and Koine Greek vocab, specifically which words simply do not exist in one language or the other. So word for word translations are impossible.

If you can't see why the only Son of the Living God would need to to be pure born of a pure woman, without blemish or even the appearance of blemish, nor why any additional children born to Mary would potentially cause many problems in a family oriented society, you drag God down to our level. Be careful, the church of indifferentism and moral relativism is right around the corner. Do not tell the Lord our God what He can and cannot do!



Beware OM, you're letting PE drag you down his rabbit hole. You are better than that.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
Consider the Douay translation of the prophecy:
Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God either unto the depth of hell, or unto the height above. And Achaz said: I will not ask, and I will not tempt the Lord. And he said: Hear ye therefore, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to be grievous to men, that you are grievous to my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel. (Isaiah 7:11-14)
What would the significance of the sign be if Mary were not a virgin upon giving birth?
Same response.

According to Christian tradition, she WAS a virgin.

Why do you think she HAD to be a virgin?
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
Because

The NT quotes uses the same wording as the Greek Septuagint. Which makes this a messianic prophecy.
OK. Fine. According to Christian tradition, she WAS a virgin.

Now answer MY question.

Why do you think she HAD to be a virgin?
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
OK. Fine. According to Christian tradition, she WAS a virgin.

Now answer MY question.

Why do you think she HAD to be a virgin?
Because
Isaiah 7:14 says.

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:04 PM
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adelphé and adelphos aka "brothers and sisters" used in Matthew 13:55-56

doesn't necessarily mean biological brothers and sisters.

actually the definintion in strongs for "brother" is.

"adelphos - a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian."


When you dig down into the greek, compare what the church fathers said about the issue, and reflect on Mary and what she represents.

I believe it is very possible that Mary was a perpetual virgin..... and those that tried to touch her had their faces melted off....
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
If virgins become nuns just because they feel a certain calling how much more if the virgin in question was the mother of the Living God?

Saint Mary did not had other children than Jesus.
Are you absolutely sure?? Source Please.

Please don't use sources that just plainly state that a virgin will give birth to our Messiah. We all know she was a virgin prior to giving birth to our Messiah...but what about AFTER that. She WAS AFTER ALL married O_o.
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:47 PM
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There are a lot of people debating Mary's virginity.

No one is denying she was a virgin PRIOR to giving birth to our Messiah...but she was also married.

What I think others are debating is did she REMAIN a virgin?

I personally do not think so....and there is nothing wrong with that UNLESS you are trying to DEIFY her!!??
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabinet Maker View Post
...
If you can't see why the only Son of the Living God would need to to be pure born of a pure woman, without blemish or even the appearance of blemish, nor why any additional children born to Mary would potentially cause many problems in a family oriented society, you drag God down to our level. Be careful, the church of indifferentism and moral relativism is right around the corner. Do not tell the Lord our God what He can and cannot do!
...
NO SIR.

I cannot understand why the only Son of the Living God (ie God Himself) could not be born of ANY human woman He determined to be suitable. How can a person - who actually who believes in God - think he can dictate additional "qualifications" for the Theotokos? Based on what you have written here, it sounds like YOU are the one who thinks there are human beings with the horsepower to tell Our Lord what He can and cannot do.

Christ brought HIMSELF down to our level when He accepted flesh from a human woman. Certainly the RCC still teaches about the Incarnation these days: 100% divine, 100% human. Remember that?

Lord have mercy.
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