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View Poll Results: Which is best for self defense, OC spray or firearms?
Semi auto or revolver 45 95.74%
OC spray or similar non lethal option 2 4.26%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-30-2019, 07:34 AM
dontbuypotteryfromme dontbuypotteryfromme is offline
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Yeah. But you can mess up more easily with OC than with a gun.

Squirt the wrong guy not the end of the world. Probably get whatever your version of a bond is.

That means you can act way lower on the threat scale.

Drunk uncle Jimmy pats your wife's bum and she kills him would put a strain on family dinners.

She squirts him message sent.
We had the riot oc sprayer. It looked like a fire extinguisher with a duck wide mouth at the end. Could saturate a person or group in seconds. Would of made for a horrible day
I have worked with a few cops who got exited and pepper sprayed everyone in the room.

We were in this huge gang fight and half the cops went down because of it.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:03 AM
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We were taking down a guy one night and a Sergeant sprayed the guy. Hit us more than the suspect. I found out later he'd done that more than once.
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Old 07-30-2019, 02:06 PM
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Perfume

Better than being TAZED by an excited rookie that forgets one key thing
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Old fart View Post
In the scenario Forged presents (quoted below), the ************ is in MY HOUSE, which means I don't have to be reactive. I can and will go on the offensive with everything I've got... no hesitation... no quarter... with my size, gender, and age, I don't have the luxury of *****footing around.





*Assuming* my dog didn't get him first, shove and shoot. It would *probably* take more than just shoving (as in, I'm going to do immediate, intense violence) long enough to end the threat or so I could draw one of 2 EDC and use it to end the threat. Concept is the same... there are other lethal options Whoever it was would have to contend with both my dog and me And maybe the cat

BTW, my dog likes pepper spray, the cat not so much. Not the first dog I have had that does

PS: I managed to miss this whole thread until today... ack... sorry
In the house it's straight to gun. That crosses a line that gets a full force response immediately. Much different from a traffic stop or a guy approaching you in a walmart parking lot.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
As someone who is level 1 certified and ran a TIF. OC spray blows and no way would I want to deploy it outdoors. One shift in the wind and you got it back in your face.

Carry lethal and kill them.
I carry gel on me. Foggers are a not unless you're clearing a confined space. I've got a can of fogger available, but it's for things like people who refuse to get out of a car/closet/bathroom/etc. Not for defense out in the open.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by InfScout View Post
We were taking down a guy one night and a Sergeant sprayed the guy. Hit us more than the suspect. I found out later he'd done that more than once.
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Originally Posted by Old fart View Post
Perfume

Better than being TAZED by an excited rookie that forgets one key thing


Had a good friend of mine tase her partner. The two of them never stop bringing it up. He actually gained respect for her though. Everyone else in the crowd just stood around while he was wrestling with the guy not sure what to do and this tiny girl cop stepped right up, said **** it, fired the taser, missed, fired her other cartridge, hit him AND the subject and tased them both. Then she just kept tasing them both to keep them both down while she grabbed her partner's taser. Then she dual wielded tasers, fired her partner's taser into just the subject while she had them both stopped so she could tase just the subject and her partner could get him cuffed.

I wish I had been there. Apparently it was epic badass.
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Colt View Post
I carry gel on me. Foggers are a not unless you're clearing a confined space. I've got a can of fogger available, but it's for things like people who refuse to get out of a car/closet/bathroom/etc. Not for defense out in the open.
Eh its I rather use lethal
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:43 PM
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Eh its I rather use lethal
When you're trying to arrest someone for a suspended license and they're refusing to get out of the car lethal force is probably not the best option. Climbing in to the vehicle and dragging them out is also not the safest thing to do for anyone involved. A quick spritz of fogger into the vehicle empties it pretty fast though.

As for gel, there are a lot of situations were physical force is justified, but not lethal force. These same situations usually mean that the situation is safe enough to get your OC out. These are more common for some people than others. There's situations that are "Maintain control and get this situation stopped before it turns violent and someone gets seriously hurt." and ones that are "Oh ****, I better stop him before he kills me."
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Colt View Post
When you're trying to arrest someone for a suspended license and they're refusing to get out of the car lethal force is probably not the best option. Climbing in to the vehicle and dragging them out is also not the safest thing to do for anyone involved. A quick spritz of fogger into the vehicle empties it pretty fast though.

As for gel, there are a lot of situations were physical force is justified, but not lethal force. These same situations usually mean that the situation is safe enough to get your OC out. These are more common for some people than others. There's situations that are "Maintain control and get this situation stopped before it turns violent and someone gets seriously hurt." and ones that are "Oh ****, I better stop him before he kills me."

And the "oh **** that's a lot of rounds" and they're still shooting, and then you see the tracers coming from multiple points going in multiple directions as you come around the corner... and you have to do something right now because there's innocent civilians in the immediate area in imminent danger of death/serious injury, and knowing all you have are your duty weapon, back-up, and a shotgun... and the bag of extra loaded mags for your duty weapon everyone laughed at and the b'zillions of LE headed your way

Fortunately, most often/almost always, simply treating people with respect, listening, not taking anything personally, liberal use of please and thank you, and building on previously established relationships/partnerships/community policing/reputation to deescalate and resolve things with no force at all (unless you count officer presence) Proactive work in the neighborhoods now reduces the number and magnitude of uses of force later
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:17 PM
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I have to say that anyone who say's pepper spray or a taser is more effective is WRONG! I've been hit with Law Enforcement pepper spray and tasers. From experience, I can tell you that people can still fight after being hit with both. A pistol is more effective.
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:26 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
If you come at me in any aggressive way, shape or form then you are implying the use of force and I will counter your use of force with my use of force: a pistol. If you do not attack me, then I will be nice to you as well. Cross over the line and start to use the threat of violence and all bets are off. A raised voice does not constitute violence. Moving towards me and trying to hit me does put you in danger. I have seen pepper spray fail too many times for me to feel comfortable using it in a bad situation.
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Yeah. But you omitted the post I was responding to.

And then applied my post to an unrelated post.

Which is out of context and lying.

Quote:
lie
verb (2)


\ ˈlī

\

lied; lying\ ˈlī-​iŋ

\


Definition of lie (Entry 3 of 6)



intransitive verb


1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
//She was lying when she said she didn't break the vase.

//He lied about his past experience.


2 : to create a false or misleading impression
//Statistics sometimes lie.

//The mirror never lies.


transitive verb


: to bring about by telling lies
//He lied his way out of trouble.



lie
noun (2)


\ ˈlī

\


Definition of lie (Entry 4 of 6)




1a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive
//He told a lie to avoid punishment.

b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer
//the lies we tell ourselves to feel better

//historical records containing numerous lies


2 : something that misleads or deceives
//His show of remorse was a lie.


3 : a charge of lying (see lie entry 3)
Why don't you point out the thing that I said that fits the above description? You can't.

Your above statement is just a baseless ad hominem; commonly used when liberals can't stand that their limited view of the world is challenged.

You don't have the foggiest idea why Herd Sniper made that statement. But you couldn't wait to jump in with your vast mall cop experience, which I'm sure is quite applicable, if you can equate catching someone trying to take a bottle of shampoo, with a random unprovoked attack on the street. You can't be that obtuse over the difference in dynamics without faking it.

You also just interjected your poorly formed idea on how it would continue, with no external assistance from the very poster you were quoting. All because you got a little chub for obfuscating the topic.

It's like playing chess with a pigeon. You know it's just going to crap on the board and strut around like it won. Amazing, really.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:54 AM
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Apples to oranges.

There's stuff you need a gun for, and stuff you need OC for.

A person responding to a rowdy kid in a hs, for instance, shouldn't go straight to a handgun. And I think we all know that. Tbqh, the stuff you need a less lethal response for is a lot more common than the stuff you need a handgun for.

A handgun tends to be a lot more to carry than a pepper spray-- if you're going to concealed carry, you've still got room in your hip pocket for at least a small pepper spray. The full size or compact pistol on your belt or in your waistband likely didn't take up a space you needed for a pepper spray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
One occassion I remember well where OC didn't work was on a schizophrenic with known high level martial arts training. An entire riot sized canister of OC the size of a small fire extinguisher was expended on the guy with no effects. We ended up taken the guy down requiring several fist and elbow strikes. I ended up getting a pretty bad chemical burn from having to kneel in a puddle of OC for several minutes.
As for this guy, you might as well just say that life isn't perfect. There are examples of people not getting killed by stuff like cyanide, or of living without cancer to a very old age despite awful smoking and drinking habits. Just because it's possible that there's a weird person out there like that doesn't mean that it's not poisonous stuff (or that you shouldn't generally, logically be carrying a pepper spray).

Then on the handgun side, there are even plenty of stories of the same thing. We've all heard it-- lots of 9mm or 22LR rounds in somebody, and the guy was still walking around. Guess it was more true of the days before hollow points. I've even seen a video recently from the northeast, though, where a big fat woman was shot with 9mm, and she was standing around on her feet waiting for help from the ambulance. Looked unaffected. Think I might have seen an example of the same thing with a cop more recently. Think it was South Africa.

I was just reading a book where the Rangers were shooting a guy in the guts with Win Mag in Afghanistan, and the guy wouldn't fall down. They hit him three times in the torso, in the pelvis, and in the leg. They didn't recover a body.

Just remembering a horrible story from Germany. A teenaged enrichment Arab used a pepper spray on a girl while he was raping her in the subway. I don't remember if it was her pepper spray or not.

Similarly, there was a fight on a train between two Laqeshas in NYC recently, where one used a pepper spray, and was killed by the other one, who slashed her neck with a tiny knife. IIRC, the one with the pepper spray was the one who was more in the right-- but it still just goes to show you that you don't know who's carrying a pepper spray. You could be getting into a bad argument with a ghetto person over something trivial, and just as you're thinking it's time to get out your pepper spray, they're thinking the same thing. And there are criminals out there using pepper spray for stuff.

Also, the stats on gun grabs are not that good for cops. It's something like two thirds of cops who have their guns grabbed end up having them used against them.

The point is just that, whether you're choosing a pepper spray or a handgun, you shouldn't get overconfident. It's a step in the right direction, but it's not the final word on what's going to happen when you get into an encounter.

You've got to have a pepper spray or a handgun, but you've also got to fight well with them, and be assessing and reacting to what's going on.
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