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View Poll Results: SHTF - Which do you grab?
AR15 / M16 type system 154 68.75%
AK-47 or similar system 39 17.41%
M14 type system 31 13.84%
Voters: 224. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-11-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
HUH??????????????

TO quote Spock... "That is highly illogical."

IF, I have 100rds of .223
and
100rds of 7.62 why would I hit with the .223 more?

and

if I have 1000 rds of 7.62
and
only 100rds of .223
I should be able to hit more with the 7.62

There is no weight limit or round count mentioned any where in the scenario base So
why would you hit more with one over the other with the shooter equally skilled using both or either one?
i don't think that's the conversation we were having, though. nobody here, as far as i can tell, said you're going to hit more with 556 than 308 shot for shot.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
Holly Fudlore batman. This has been rehashed to death and your claims are unfounded and do not agree with FBI statistics and the entire reason they switched back to 9mm. We can all find anecdotal evidence to support our weapons choices but in the end look to the experts.

Here is a cool story about how 1 cop shot a guy over 10 times with a 45 and the guys was still fighting. He now carries 145 rounds of 9mm.

https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/

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CAN''T help it does not agree with FBI

The FBI
Who brought you
the Miami Massacre
Ruby Ridge
Waco
the crime lab that admitted to fabricating results to aid in prosecution opening reversal in thousands of Federal cases
the crime lab that withheld evidence to aid in prosecution of cases
the Russia investigation
who said Hillary, what home based unsecure server?...no problems there,
who has the ability to spin the statistics to whatever outcome they desire for the sake of an agenda.

You are the FBI, you want to appease the PTB that you are progressive and open to all kinds of folks, except for the life of you you cannot get the 5' tall 100lb females you are hiring to shoot well with anything larger than a cap pistol, BUT, if you could say a 9mm works as well or better than anything out there,then you can retool with minicalibers and save your image as progressive and being a trend setter all along.

IF FBI 9mms are the end all be all, Why does their HRT carry .45?

Choice of the FBI HRT: Springfield Armory Professional Model
By Leroy Thompson
https://www.swatmag.com/article/choi...ssional-model/

My department went through the same thing... Used to be able to carry anything you could qualify with so long as it met certain parameters. Nothing smaller than .38spec/9mm If you carried anything but issue you had to pay for your own qualification ammo and the gun itself. Under AA we hired some munchkin sized officers who found guns they could shoot.

THEN they hired some idiot from outside the dept for DC in charge of training and he found the mix of firearms "offensive" they should all be the same.
So, the dept spent a bunch of $$$ to buy S&W 586 and outfit everyone with the same gun. Range score plummeted for the smaller cops but we all looked the same. Shootings happened, lots of misses. Straw that broke the camels back, female officer has BG at 8 feet, he goes for a gun she goes for a gun She gets off 5 shots at BG. The CLOSEST round to him hit the pavement in front of him about 3 feet in front to the left. the BG was so scared he dropped his gun and dove under the patrol car. BUT, half a block away she literally shot the beer can out of a guys hand as he was leaning back in his recliner in his living room. If he had been upright a couple seconds longer she would have hit him.

When interviewed about the shooting she said.".the grips on the new gun don't let my hand get any kind of grip so I can shoot it." (I know because I was the union guy there that night and on the board review. )
After further review of officer range scores they realized they had dropped on the smaller officers pretty much across the board. A short time later we went to the "family" of Smith autos so they could fit the gun to the person instead of trying to fit the person to the gun. And you could carry 9mm through .45

I spent almost 30 years dealing with the FBI on a semi irregular basis and over 5 years on a daily basis and their agendas and they are nothing BUT political and if it served their purpose to say a horse turd was a rose they would claim they had discovered a new rose and it is wonderful.

My statement of shooting was based what I saw PERSONALLY in the real world over investigating thousands of shootings. Does it represent every incident on the planet? nope and I didn't say it did.
Just my personal REAL WORLD observations over my career.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:24 PM
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Ruby ridge was an assault on patriots. God fearing honest citizens.

Let the deep state try that again, so help us all...

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Old 07-11-2019, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Nope, I started weaver/Cooper/1911.
Went to isosceles, Glocks in 9mm...

Now, anecdotal: one of our assaultmen shot a haji 13 times (with an M9) to get him to stay down (first string of 5 or 6 into the torso, second string of 5 or 6 in the torso, (11 total) and 2 into the head.)
After that I was VERY CAREFUL to ONLY carry premium 9mms HP's, but I carried 9mms for years.

After moving to the Ozarks and having a bear eat my bees I switched to .40, but that's neither here nor there, and I'll carry .9mm in the city.

Sorry I don't fit your stereotypes that you are prepared to ignore and dismiss... Your close, no doubt you can manage if you work at it!

As I said: is how it is, whether you like it or not. Won't impact me either way.
You clearly have an opinion on things and that is fine but unfortunately they just arent based in fact. Saying you had to shoot 1 guy 5 to 7 times with a 556 and another guy 1 time with a 308 doesnt prove your point either. There are plenty of instances where the reverse is true. My father, a Marine Colonel, had to investigate an instance where a guy was shot 9 times from his left foot to his right shoulder with an M60 in a training exercise and he lived. Does that mean that the m60 needs 9 rounds to kill someone?

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Old 07-11-2019, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
1911 you say

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I like that one forged, that's nice
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
(Again) I never said 556 wasn't deadly or lethal.

Just that it fails to stop the threat in a timely manner.
No it does fail to stop the threat in a timely manner. It may have failed in certain instances but that is anecdotal. Plenty of people have been dropped by a single round of 556 to the torso, groin, or head. Plenty of people have needed multiple rounds from 308 to be stopped. How many Americans survived getting shot by 8mm Mauser during WW1 and WW2? How many Germans and Japs survived being shot by 30-06? There are way too many factors to a gun shot to say 1 round isnt effective or is. Especially considering it is the longest serving rifle/cartridge platform in US military history. We are still using it because it works.

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Old 07-11-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
You clearly have an opinion on things and that is fine but unfortunately they just arent based in fact.

LMFAO! NO **** dude?
You start off by asking why "no younger vets" say what I say.
THEN you say that "Other young vets" do not agree
NOW your telling me that my first hand account "isn't based on fact"

Pull the other one...





Saying you had to shoot 1 guy 5 to 7 times with a 556 and another guy 1 time with a 308 doesnt prove your point either.
1. I have clearly related "much more than one"
2. I've never shot anyone with a .308. (Only thing I've Every shot anyone with is 556)
Been there though.

But you keep on ignoring every account that disagrees with what you want to believe...




There are plenty of instances where the reverse is true.
I've been saying that, and you've been ignoring it... See below:

My father, a Marine Colonel, had to investigate an instance where a guy was shot 9 times from his left foot to his right shoulder with an M60 in a training exercise. Does that mean that the m60 needs 9 rounds to kill someone?

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For the THIRD TIME:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
.




As I have said before: I'm NOT saying that 556 'can't ' even setting aside my first hand experiences we historically have people with equal skills and training saying both "it worked for me" AND "It didn't work for me"
So a reasonable person must postulate that it MAY work, but not that it WILL.
"May work" won't cut it with MY 'life support equipment"
Not my first aid, not my oxygen tanks, and not my ammo.

Basically: you want to trust it... Feel free, you won't be alone.

Me, I won't, and I won't be alone either.

!?!



Never seen someone get told a first hand account and then say "that's not based on fact"

That mean your calling me a liar, or just in denial?
(I want to know before tell you to GFY.)
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
No it does fail to stop the threat....


in a timely manner.


....It may have failed in certain instances but that is anecdotal. Plenty of people have been dropped by a single round of 556 to the torso, groin, or head. Plenty of people have needed multiple rounds from 308 to be stopped. How many Americans survived getting shot by 8mm Mauser during WW1 and WW2? How many Germans and Japs survived being shot by 30-06? There are way too many factors to a gun shot to say 1 round isnt effective or is. Especially considering it is the longest serving rifle/cartridge platform in US military history. We are still using it because it works.

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Plenty of people have been killed by a .22 too.
doesn't mean that's an ideal defensive round.

Dude:

I have satisfied each and every one of your objections.
It's obvious that you are not going to stop making them up....

SO since you haven't told me if your calling me a liar or just telling me that I didn't see what I saw...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
.




As I have said before: I'm NOT saying that 556 'can't ' even setting aside my first hand experiences we historically have people with equal skills and training saying both "it worked for me" AND "It didn't work for me"
So a reasonable person must postulate that it MAY work, but not that it WILL.
"May work" won't cut it with MY 'life support equipment"
Not my first aid, not my oxygen tanks, and not my ammo.

Basically: you want to trust it... Feel free, you won't be alone.

Me, I won't, and I won't be alone either.

!?!


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Old 07-11-2019, 02:00 PM
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While the safe bet would be to go with a heavy, hard hitting caliber/cartridge, I still wouldn't hang my hat on it working every time. A solid hit in the vitals/center of mass is going to have a pronounced effect whether that hit was accomplished with a 5.56, 7.62x39 or a 7.62 x51. Which kind of throws the whole discussion back to how quickly and accurately one can one deliver a shot to the vitals. Rendering the argument for one caliber over the other somewhat moot.


With a miss or poorly placed shot the results are going to be pretty much the same irrespective of caliber or cartridge. The only sure thing that will achieve a rapid stop has more to do with bullet placement than with caliber. Which brings me back to square one and why I say some folks seem to loose sight of just how lethal each of these cartridges actually are.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
For the THIRD TIME:







Never seen someone get told a first hand account and then say "that's not based on fact"



That mean your calling me a liar, or just in denial?

(I want to know before tell you to GFY.)
Your experiences are your experiences and I've never denied that the events didnt happen. However, the conclusion that you have come to based on your experiences is where the fact ends and the opinion begins. Chances are that there is much more to the story as to why you had to shoot some people 5 to 7 times with 1 round and other people only 1 time with another round. It could have much just been coincidence. Perhaps those guys you had to shoot 5 to 7 times with the 556 were on opium at that time and the guys you shot with the 308 werent. Perhaps when you shot the guys with the 308 the bullets happened to hit their heart or spinal column but when you hit the guys with the 556 you missed their key vitals. There are far too many factors but your instances alone arent merely enough to state that it takes 5 to 7 556 to do what 1 308 can do especially since a 308 only has twice the muzzle energy.

Like I've already stated there are plenty of other combat vets that claim the 556 works just fine. I can name a bunch of them if youd like or you can search the web or you can ignore all other accounts and purely go on your own experiences.

I posted earlier how 1 cop now carries 145 rounds of 9mm because he shot a bad guy 14 times with a 45. His experience has caused him to abandon the 45 for a lot more ammo. Not that he thinks the 9mm is ballistically superior but because his experience has told him that caliber doesnt really matter so much, he just wants more ammo. However plenty of cops have only had to shoot bad guys 1 time with their 9mms or 45s to finish the bad guys. His experiences however has caused him to abandon conventional wisdom that says if you put a few good hits into a bad guy with a 45 he is going down. Just like your experiences have caused you to not have faith in the 556. However, that doesnt mean that in general it takes 5 to 7 rounds of 556 to kill a bad guy. Just that it took you 5 to 7 rounds of 556 to kill a bad guy and that experience has caused you to not trust the round. Whereas there are certainly many soldiers that have as many kills as you that have only ever had to shoot a bad guy once or twice to kill them.

Our individual experiences can cause us to come to conclusions that arent always based in normalcy and I am sorry if that offends you. However it isnt meant to offend but state that your experiences vary from the norm and as such shouldnt be taken as the norm but more so an outlier to the norm. Carry on.

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Old 07-11-2019, 02:56 PM
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i seem to recall when the iraq war ended a ton of SS109 penetrators came on the market as contract overruns, they tend not to fragment and produce, so i'm told, pencil-straight 22 holes from ammo that was "barrier blind", sort of, but at a loss of some terminal effect. if this is some of what was being regularly issued in Iraq, I would not be surprised if this contributed to Nomad's experience.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
Ruby ridge was an assault on patriots. God fearing honest citizens.

Let the deep state try that again, so help us all...

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we were a single trigger pull away in April 2014

feds backed down because they were outnumbered and outgunned

that's proof we can win those types of encounters.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:59 PM
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Of the 3 I have the AK, the ammo of my enemy is my friend, will the ammo be the 7-62x39 or the 5.56 would have to wait and see on that one, like stated take what you have in the 5.56 I have a Mini14 which is my weapon of choice. That stated depends on the SHTF Scenario, are we talking about a down and dirty shooting war SHTF or are we talking about a collapse of economy SHTF that would dictate weapon choice along with are you able to drive out or are you walking. Driving you have better logistical choice if your walking your only as good as what you can carry on your back. As I have a number of weapons to choose from, able to drive out I take everything I own plus the ammo if forced to walk out in a non shooting war SHTF I would opt for my Ruger 10/22 pound for pound you can carry a lot of .22rds, shooting SHTF I go with what I have and that is the Mini14 I know its not an AR but it is still 5.56 and I can breach load stripper clips into the mag thus all I need to carry are Bandoleers of stripper clips instead of a lot of mags. My AK would be nice but ammo may be an issue down the road. If allowed two rifles my bug out pack has a built in rifle scabbard so the 10/22 would be carried as a back up
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
i seem to recall when the iraq war ended a ton of SS109 penetrators came on the market as contract overruns, they tend not to fragment and produce, so i'm told, pencil-straight 22 holes from ammo that was "barrier blind", sort of, but at a loss of some terminal effect. if this is some of what was being regularly issued in Iraq, I would not be surprised if this contributed to Nomad's experience.
that is a very good point Nomads experience may be with the M855 that had very poor performance and lead to the introduction of the M855A1.

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Old 07-11-2019, 03:02 PM
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Your experiences are your experiences yep
and I've never denied that the events didnt happen.
Oh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
You clearly have an opinion on things and that is fine but unfortunately they just arent based in fact.
However, the conclusion that you have come to based on your experiences is where the fact ends and the opinion begins.funny how you know less about it than me, but your lecturing me about it. Chances are that there is much more to the story as to why you had to shoot some people 5 to 7 times with 1 round and other people only 1 time with another round.You REALLY don't listen.... DO you? It could have much just been coincidence. Over, and over, and over, across the room and hundreds of yards away, over and over and over....

Perhaps those guys you had to shoot 5 to 7 times with the 556 were on opium at that time and the guys you shot with the 308 werent. Yep, you don't listen... Rendering any "judgement call" on your part absurd!Perhaps when you shot the guys with the 308 again...the bullets happened to hit their heart or spinal column but when you hit the guys with the 556 you missed their key vitals. noThere are far too many factors agreed. but your instances alone arent merely enough to state that it takes 5 to 7 556 to do what 1 308 can do especially since a 308 only has twice the muzzle energy. RIght.
Which is why you thought I was a vietnam vet.
Because I was saying the same thing that people have been saying about the 556 since it was invented....


Like I've already stated there are plenty of other combat vets that claim the 556 works just fine. do I need to say it a 4th time?!? I can name a bunch of them if youd like or you can search the web or you can ignore all other accounts and purely go on your own experiences. try reading what I've said 3x already....

I posted earlier how 1 cop now carries 145 rounds of 9mm because he shot a bad guy 14 times with a 45. His experience has caused him to abandon the 45 for a lot more ammo. Not that he thinks the 9mm is ballistically superior but because his experience has told him that caliber doesnt really matter so much, he just wants more ammo. However plenty of cops have only had to shoot bad guys 1 time with their 9mms or 45s to finish the bad guys. His experiences however has caused him to abandon conventional wisdom that says if you put a few good hits into a bad guy with a 45 he is going down. Just like your experiences have caused you to not have faith in the 556. However, that doesnt mean that in general it takes 5 to 7 rounds of 556 to kill a bad guy. Which is why SOME PEOPLE have been experiencing these failures for the entire life of the round. First it was "no younger people", then it was "Other younger people", and now "You are unique"
You contradict yourself sir.
(Over and over, and over.)
Just that it took you 5 to 7 rounds of 556 to kill a bad guy and that experience has caused you to not trust the round.experiences. plural Whereas there are certainly many soldiers that have as many kills as you that have only ever had to shoot a bad guy once or twice to kill them. do doubt. See what I've already said 3x. Off you actually paid attention you would see that you are telling me what I told you pages ago....

Our individual experiences can cause us to come to conclusions that arent always based in normalcy like that sometimes it works? and I am sorry if that offends you. doesn't offend me in any way. I'm getting a kick out of watching your mental gymnastics as you try to keep up and keep coming up with a story (or rather new stories) that addresses the simple facts.However it isnt meant to offend but state that your experiences vary from the norm first It was vietnam, now otjers, then you possibly called.me a liar, and now "I'm not the norm."
I provide first hand accounts, you provide.... Nothing.
Whats funny is that I know plenty of guys with the same experiences as me. (And a few with no complaints.)
and as such shouldnt be taken as the norm but more so an outlier to the norm. Carry on.

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WHy? Because you say so?
Again: complaints like mine have been stated FOREVER (As far as 556 is concerned.)

Yea, no.

Outlier my ass.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:03 PM
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i seem to recall when the iraq war ended a ton of SS109 penetrators came on the market as contract overruns, they tend not to fragment and produce, so i'm told, pencil-straight 22 holes from ammo that was "barrier blind", sort of, but at a loss of some terminal effect. if this is some of what was being regularly issued in Iraq, I would not be surprised if this contributed to Nomad's experience.
And Vietnam?

Keep Reaching for any excuse, I'll reach for what backs up the 556 when grunts are in the field.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
WHy? Because you say so?

Again: complaints like mine have been stated FOREVER (As far as 556 is concerned.)



Yea, no.



Outlier my ass.
Reading comprehension isnt your strong suit but then again neither is cause and affect analysis so why am I not surprised. Keep getting butthurt over my comments if you want. I've never argued that your experiences didnt happen to you but that your conclusions arent based on proper cause and effect. Unless of course you were using M855 and then I'll give it to you. That round was notorious for not Yawing.

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Old 07-11-2019, 03:28 PM
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An interesting article on the subject.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...mmunition/amp/

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Old 07-11-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
Holly Fudlore batman. This has been rehashed to death and your claims are unfounded and do not agree with FBI statistics and the entire reason they switched back to 9mm. We can all find anecdotal evidence to support our weapons choices but in the end look to the experts.

Here is a cool story about how 1 cop shot a guy over 10 times with a 45 and the guys was still fighting. He now carries 145 rounds of 9mm.

https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/

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The Entire Reason the FBI switched back to the 9mm was they work for the President and the AG..They were ordered by Clinton and Reno, to hire more women and small framed men, and that ment adopting a smaller round with less recoil.

At first, they replaced the 10mm with the 40 cal, because women and girly men could not manage the grip size of a pistol chambered for the longer cartridge.Then they reduced the recoil of 40 cal rounds by reducing bullet wt and pressure. Once they produced a true wimpy 40 cal load, they found they could match its subpar performance with a 9mm.

I have found no test data indicating the new 9mm match the performance of 10mm and 357 mag loads, and I have substantial experience suggesting the FBI report are full of crap.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:53 PM
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Once one gets away from the military FMJ's and starts using civilian ammo they should see an improvement in terminal effects. Take the 9mm as example, some of the performance arguments leveled against the 5.56 sound awfully familiar to the early arguments leveled against the 9mm. With advances in bullet technology the 9mm has become arguable one of the better pistol/cartridge options available.


Seems only right that the 5.56 would benefit from the same advances in bullet technology. Even the lowly Remington 62gr soft point is a vast improvement over it's military equivalent. Why even discuss ball ammo when it's best use is inexpensive practice and spent casings for reloading. When it comes to 5.56 there are better civilian offerings available.
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