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.308 terminal ballistics Vinland Military Weapons Forum 46 10-15-2016 07:20 AM

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Old 01-09-2019, 11:18 PM
Florida Bullfrog Florida Bullfrog is offline
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Default For Those Curious About Airgun Terminal Ballistics



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All shots are at 50 yards into clay:





The above 2 pictures are of a .308 airgun bullet wound channel fired at a muzzle velocity of 950fps and impacting the clay at 50 yards. Complete pass thru and got caught in a second block of clay behind the first big block. I also tried firing them slower at 810 and 755fps. The wound channels were similar but the bullet actually mushroomed better at the lower velocities. At the higher velocities 850 and above the bullet "exploded" to the extent and airgun bullet can do so and sent shrapnel throughout the channel.

Below. Top row is .308. The first .308 was fired at 950fps. The next 2 were fired at 810 and 755fps respectively. Bottom row is .45 airgun bullets exhibiting the same principle, the more mushroomed, the slower the velocity. The faster the impact was, the more the lead pealed off as the bullet passed. Left .45 was fired at 900fps, right .45 was fired at 830fps.






Above. From left to right
218grain .45 boattail hp, fired at 830fps.
98 grain .308 hp, fired at 810ps.
60 grain .300 boattail hp, fired at 920fps.
45 grain, .300 pellet w/ballistic tip, fired at 855fps.

Here's a long video of my ballistics tests with various airguns from .25 caliber up to .45 caliber:



Here's a fun comparison between a .22LR and the .308 airgun turned down to have less energy than the .22LR. The .308 still won in terms of wound channel size and depth.

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Old 01-10-2019, 02:45 AM
Madoc Madoc is offline
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Bullfrog, that was a very useful post from my perspective.

I spend a few months of the year working in the US and as a furriner am ineligible to buy a boomstick in case SHTF when I am in CONUS. And I am not complaining about that: that is one of the requirements for sovereignty.

That agreed - I like to plan for what I can legally utilize for self-protection if I get caught out.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:50 AM
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Whats the make and model of air gun are you using I find this a very interesting post
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:17 AM
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I'm curios: Have you considered tempering the bullets and trying the higher velocities?
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:32 AM
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Great post, thanks for the info! I too am curious about the air guns and setups.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:32 PM
Florida Bullfrog Florida Bullfrog is offline
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The guns I used in this test are the following:

Brand: Airforce
Model: Condor, w/ Talon Tunes shroud (integral suppressor) added.
Caliber: .25

Brand: Airforce
Model: Texan SS
Caliber: .308

Brand: Airforce
Model: Texan SS
Caliber: .45

Brand: Wicked Air Rifles
Model: Flex
Caliber: .300
Customization: 17" TJ barrel with 1:26 twist. Cobra valve. DonnyFL suppressor.

Brand: Wicked Air Rifles
Model: Flex
Caliber: .300
Customization: 24" TJ barrel with 1:16 twist. Cothran valve. DonnyFL suppressor.

Most airguns perform optimally when the projectiles are not exceeding 1000fps out of the muzzle. I can get the bullets to hold together better if I either use pure lead, or enough antimony and tin to make them very hard. The pure lead mushrooms very easy but it doesn't flake. Instead it just mushrooms on out and if the velocity is too fast then it simply mushrooms on out to a pancake shape. There are some people who sell custom airgun bullets that are pure lead but swaged instead of cast and it seems like those give a good balance between mushroom and weight retention at a higher velocity.

I have never tried heat treating my bullets, but I have quenched batches before and it does make them immediately harder as evidenced by how much harder they can be to chamber. I generally prefer the softer batches. The damage the bullets do when they fly apart is still great and I still get good penetration, enough to shoot thru a Florida-sized whitetail deer anyhow. It also gives me peace of mind to know that the softer bullets will mushroom nice at long range after the bullet has lot a lot of velocity.

For prepping purposes, each of these guns can be filled with either a PCP hand pump or a compressor (a scuba or carbon fiber tank can be used, but they require a compressor or hand pump to fill themselves). The pumps or compressors need to be able to go to 4500psi. When I got into PCP airguns a decade ago an unreliable pump cost $100 or more and a good pump cost $300-$400. A reliable compressor started at $500 and went up to the several thousands. Today the Chinese have spammed the market with cheap but reliable pumps and compressors. A decent Chinese pump can be had for $30-$50 and a Yong Heng compressor can be had for $250 give or take.

I have enough parts to rebuild my air sources when needed and I pick up spare hand pumps whenever I see them on sale in the $30 range. For pleasure shooting, you'd want a compressor. But for survival hunting (and that's really what PCPs are about for prep purposes, having a quiet way to get game that doesn't involve gunpowder, brass, or primers, and doesn't require a bow press to work on and gives you firearm like range), a hand pump and a couple of backups would do you just fine, along with what you need to cast your own lead bullets, roundball, or pellets. I have HP bullet and pellet molds that each of my guns will shoot accurately.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:42 PM
Florida Bullfrog Florida Bullfrog is offline
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I won't spam the links here, but if you browse around my youtube channel I have a review of the .25 Condor, the .300 Flex Carbine, and a first look at the .308 Texan SS that shows chronograph numbers and some up close accuracy testing. Those might answer some questions about those guns.

I believe the .308 SS is the most versatile of all of the guns, followed by the .300 Flex carbine. The Flex carbine is limited in power. Its a fine varmint gun for lung shots and can brain shoot any animal in the woods out to 50 yards at least. It will also give you a bunch of shots per fill. 60-80 full power shots before it has to be filled again. The exact number depends on outside temperature, time between shots, and how high in terms of PSI you fill the gun to. Because compressed air varies in PSI by temperature, you'll get more shots on hot days than cold days, and you'll get more shots if you wait a minute or two between shots. Every shot slightly cools the air reservoir below ambient temperature. If you let the gun sit between shots (as you would do when hunting), the air reservoir will return to ambient temperature, meaning the PSIs will bump back up. Not really a big deal when you can still get 60 shots in rapid succession on a cold day. But it still a good trick to know.

But the Flex carbine is limited in power. Without internal modifications, its limited to making good velocities on projectiles no heavier than 50 grains. The .308 Texan SS, on the other hand, can either shoot .300 pellets or .308 bullets, making its ammo selection very large. It can also be more easily governed down in power for more shots or turned up for a few very powerful shots. Its also a bit more simple internally than the Flex. The Flex has a regulator that has to be maintained. The Texan does not. The regulator gives the Flex more consistency in its shot velocities and makes it more efficient with air usage per shot, but its also more complication to tear up and limits the upper power limit of the gun.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
I spend a few months of the year working in the US and as a furriner am ineligible to buy a boomstick in case SHTF when I am in CONUS.
Are you able to own black powder guns?
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:17 AM
Florida Bullfrog Florida Bullfrog is offline
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Most states do not classify airguns as firearms. A minority of states do. Neither are airguns firearms under Federal law, per case law. Thus the reason airgun only suppressors are made and sold openly on the internet. ATF has been slow to update their website to reflect the case law. The specific case where they got overturned on prosecuting someone for having a detatchable airgun suppressor burned them pretty bad and caused some wounded pride. The Defendant ended up winning a lot of money from them in the subsequent civil suit.

The key to legally having airgun suppressors is that there better not be a shred of legitimate evidence you intend to use them on a firearm. Don’t have an adaptor for it on your AR and don’t let gunpowder residue end up inside it. The case law says that “intent” to use on a firearm is the factor that decides whether ATF has authority over airgun suppressors, not whether the suppressor can theoretically be used on a firearm, which has been ATF’s contention for years.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:38 AM
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If you have the time, please temper a handful and redo your higher velocities. Would love to know if they hold together better.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:18 PM
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Great post and impressive results. I don't own a large bore air rifle. Just the usual Crosman pump 20 & 22s and a Beeman with a 177 and 22 barrel break open. With the 22 caliber pumps I have killed more animals with them than any other gun I own. Not large animals but enough to have kept me fed if needed. I am a big believer in everyone who prepares and owns firearms should have at least one air rifle and a stock of pellets.

I had a Marlin 32 Mag lever action and I had one load with a 76gr lead bullet loaded to 960fps that was as quiet as a CB22 round. It answered my desire for a large bore air rifle. I suppose I shouldn't have sold it. It would have been a great emergency hunting gun when you didn't want anyone to know you were hunting. And no suppressor needed.
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Old 02-10-2019, 06:59 PM
Florida Bullfrog Florida Bullfrog is offline
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Here's another comparison I did; between the .45 airgun and a AR-15 jacketed hp round. The AR of course has superior explosive energy, but the airgun has superior penetration and wound-channel depth. The AR blew up the first half of the block and left the other half unscathed, while the airgun round put a cantaloupe-sized hole thru the entirety of the block. The video has the exact stats, but the energy difference was around 1,200fpe for the AR and 315fpe for the airgun. That the airgun can be competitive with the AR at a fraction of the energy should cause someone to rethink what they think they know about terminal ballistics. If you were shooting a thin-muscled creature like a human in the chest, the AR would presumably go into the chest cavity and dump its energy within, creating catastrophic damage. But if shooting a thick-muscled animal like an elk, the airgun would actually create the superior wound channel.

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Old 02-10-2019, 09:27 PM
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Good thread about the large bore airguns ...not to derail but I bet most did not know that Lewis and Clark brought along an air rifle. https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/da...oni-air-rifle/
I'm breaking in a Diana-52 right now....it's a springer so I little harder to master than a PCP.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:31 PM
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Default Both shot from a .45cal 2tube SamYang 909.......

260grains cast from x-ray shielding @ approx. 650fps into 600+page book (1 [email protected] meters)

207grains very soft lead @I don't recall....somewhere up around 750+, I think? Shot right into water at just a foot or two distance......


I consider the SamYang 909 to be "The Thutty Thutty of Bigbore Airguns".
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Old 05-27-2020, 03:40 AM
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The meat processor in Oklahoma that cut-up my Corsican Ram (yes, a ballistic test not a hunt.....the whole point was to legally see what the gun could do) was literally flabbergasted over the damage having come from an airgun.

"You shot that ram with an AIRGUN? It looked like it was shot with a 30-06!!" is what he literally yelled at me over the phone lol.

Near-pure lead 260 grainer with a .32 meplat at around 650fps muzzle velocity close range complete penetration. Wish'd I could have found that slug.

I always liked to use Veral Smith's Displacement Velocity Formula when thinking-over the potential ability of any given bigbore airgun boolit at any given velocity.....it was the only killing power formula for these larger bore airguns that made any sense to me.

The great part of this "theoretical" killing power formula is all the wound-channel testimony over the years........from handgun hunters using the same type cast projectiles at the same speeds bigbore airguns produce.......data that supports the DV formula concept when it comes to permanent wound channel.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:22 PM
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A FRIEND of mine has killed 3 Michigan deer with his "air rifle". IT is in .30 and runs at like 4000psi.

Very impressive.
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