32 Caliber is The Best for CCW (For Me[For Now]) - Page 4 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-22-2019, 07:05 PM
Aceoky's Avatar
Aceoky Aceoky is online now
Outside the box
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: W. KY
Age: 57
Posts: 2,953
Thanks: 33,012
Thanked 7,371 Times in 2,076 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Carry what you wish, get very good with it and IF you have to use it make it count. It's your life on the line (and GF in this case) so your choice.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-23-2019, 06:26 PM
hatchet jack's Avatar
hatchet jack hatchet jack is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South of Ft Worth
Posts: 793
Thanks: 1,082
Thanked 1,251 Times in 526 Posts
Default

This was one of my favorite reads on 32 caliber guns. The last paragraph is the one I like the best.

https://gunblast.com/WBell_SW32s.htm
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to hatchet jack For This Useful Post:
Old 06-25-2019, 10:10 AM
MBI's Avatar
MBI MBI is offline
American by Choice
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Utah, USA
Posts: 545
Thanks: 2,227
Thanked 949 Times in 352 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Late2Prep View Post
I have been looking for a good little pocket gun, and several are appealing for various reasons, the Kel-Tec because of the price, the Tomcat because of the quality, but what stands out with most of the options is a short lifetime. A couple thousand rounds and they are worn out or malfunctioning.

And I like to practice with what I carry, a thousand rounds may only be 10 range trips. So a truly small choice may not be a real option.

Why can't someone make a decent to high quality pocket gun that will last, has sights that you can see, and is accurate?
My wife and I each have NAA Guardians in .32 with about 500 rounds through each of them so far. Got out of the habit of shooting them because of the cost of ammo. Saved my brass though so I figure I'll start reloading for that caliber and maybe have a bit of a revival.

They're not quite as small as the Seecamp pistols that inspired them, but they're reasonably accurate little guns despite the tiny sights. My wife's only complaint is that if she shoots more than 50 rds or so in a shooting session, the next day the web of her hand is a little bit sore from the recoil.

What I'd really like to pick up though is a Colt 1903 in .32; an original one, not one of the new limited-run reproductions that came out a couple years ago.

I went to buy a Seecamp .32 to compare it to the NAA Guardians and saw that the Seecamp .380 is the exact same size as the Seecamp .32, and that was just too much to pass up.

I'm curious to see how long my Seecamp .380 lasts. If you listen to the factory schpeal, as long as you replace the recoil spring at the interval they recommend and scrub the chamber (low-tech delayed-blowback system) every 50 rounds, you should never have to replace the frame. They state they can return the pistol to like-new condition if you ever wear other parts out to the point where it needs a rebuild.

Despite the fact that it has NO sights at all, not even the simple groove that some earlier Seecamp pistols had down the top of the barrel, I was shocked at how tight of a group I can shoot with that gun.

My only complaint about the Seecamp .380 is that it hurts to shoot. I've done plenty of shooting in my life, with more types of guns I can count, and I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to recoil, but that little .380 hurts like the devil every time I pull the trigger. There's just not much gun to hold onto, and when the muzzle flips up the bottom of the trigger guard smacks my trigger finger so hard I could swear it's going to break my finger.

I haven't run into anyone else with the same problem, so unless they're just unwilling to admit that it hurts in order to save face, maybe I'm just becoming a wimp in my old age, or it's the shape of my hands, or it's how I hold the gun or something. I don't know. But while I love the gun since it gives me a .380 to carry in a package that's smaller than I've found in ANY other .380 or .32, even Derringers, it's the one gun I have that I don't enjoy practicing with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
If you really want a .32 ACP rifle, all it takes is MONEY. I had a Remington 580 single-shot .22 converted to center-fire, the barrel relined and rechambered. I had this done when .22 ammo got scarce. Inch groups at 50 yards are normal. With full-charge loads ballistics are about like a .32-20 Winchester, but if I want "silent but deadly" I drop powder charges down to about 1 grain of Bullseye with a 100-grain bullet, which gives about 700 fps from the rifle and is no louder than an air rifle. No "can" is needed.
That's a pretty neat setup, thanks for the pics.
Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:40 AM
cook's Avatar
cook cook is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,491
Thanks: 3,801
Thanked 5,230 Times in 1,998 Posts
Default

So much info in this thread,thanks to everyone.
I never knew anything about .32 except I've always heard about seecamp.
Went to "my"LGS to kill time on lunch break,they have had a seecamp sitting there for about 1/2 a year for 449$,no clue if thats a good deal.
Well,yesterday,it had about 12 brothers and sister sitting next to it,hr mag,keltec,revolver,top break,sw long,black powder acp,etc...never had a clue so many types.Hard to tell which ones can share the same ammo,or use different types.Some of them are really small.
Doubt I'll ever get one,but its fun learning about them.I "think" the keltec was 259$ ?
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2019, 07:41 AM
Bobcat In The Woods's Avatar
Bobcat In The Woods Bobcat In The Woods is offline
At 5000AGL
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: At an airport
Posts: 572
Thanks: 83
Thanked 939 Times in 356 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cook View Post
So much info in this thread,thanks to everyone.
I never knew anything about .32 except I've always heard about seecamp.
Went to "my"LGS to kill time on lunch break,they have had a seecamp sitting there for about 1/2 a year for 449$,no clue if thats a good deal.
Well,yesterday,it had about 12 brothers and sister sitting next to it,hr mag,keltec,revolver,top break,sw long,black powder acp,etc...never had a clue so many types.Hard to tell which ones can share the same ammo,or use different types.Some of them are really small.
Doubt I'll ever get one,but its fun learning about them.I "think" the keltec was 259$ ?
327 Federal Magnum will shoot 32 H&R Mag, which will shoot 32 Smith and Wesson Long, which will shoot 32 Smith and Wesson Short. All of those will also shoot 32 ACP, though not accurately.

My KelTec was $255 for what that's worth.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2019, 08:37 AM
rjsixgun's Avatar
rjsixgun rjsixgun is offline
Mad Trapper
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,141
Thanks: 70
Thanked 1,020 Times in 546 Posts
Default

Same can be said for 357 Magnum!
you can shoot...……..
38 short
38 long
38 Smith and Wesson
38 Special
38 +P
357 Magnum
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2019, 12:10 PM
hatchet jack's Avatar
hatchet jack hatchet jack is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South of Ft Worth
Posts: 793
Thanks: 1,082
Thanked 1,251 Times in 526 Posts
Default

These seem to be the hot new 32 to have. I would like one but spare mags are hard to find and expensive when you do. Plus right now I am strapped for disposable cash and I have a Walther PP in the safe.

https://aimsurplus.com/beretta-model...tandard-grade/

https://www.classicfirearms.com/bere...ood-very-good/
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2019, 12:38 PM
Bobcat In The Woods's Avatar
Bobcat In The Woods Bobcat In The Woods is offline
At 5000AGL
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: At an airport
Posts: 572
Thanks: 83
Thanked 939 Times in 356 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchet jack View Post
These seem to be the hot new 32 to have. I would like one but spare mags are hard to find and expensive when you do. Plus right now I am strapped for disposable cash and I have a Walther PP in the safe.

https://aimsurplus.com/beretta-model...tandard-grade/

https://www.classicfirearms.com/bere...ood-very-good/
I would love to have a Beretta 32. My fullsize carry gun is a Beretta 92.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2019, 01:27 PM
.455_Hunter's Avatar
.455_Hunter .455_Hunter is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: In the foothills of the Colorado Front Range
Posts: 605
Thanks: 595
Thanked 1,393 Times in 426 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjsixgun View Post
Same can be said for 357 Magnum!
you can shoot...……..
38 short
38 long
38 Smith and Wesson
38 Special
38 +P
357 Magnum
Theoretically, .38 Smith &Wesson is NOT shootable in .357 Mag. However, It may chamber if the tolerance stack-up is correct. If it does fit, I wouldn't be concerned about firing it due to the low pressure compared to magnum rounds.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-05-2019, 01:30 PM
.455_Hunter's Avatar
.455_Hunter .455_Hunter is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: In the foothills of the Colorado Front Range
Posts: 605
Thanks: 595
Thanked 1,393 Times in 426 Posts
Default

.32 is one of my favorite CCW calibers. I have examples in .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long and .32 Auto, and have frequently carried one since the late 90's.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-06-2019, 10:38 AM
HappyinID's Avatar
HappyinID HappyinID is online now
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,383
Thanks: 2,719
Thanked 4,454 Times in 2,047 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchet jack View Post
These seem to be the hot new 32 to have. I would like one but spare mags are hard to find and expensive when you do. Plus right now I am strapped for disposable cash and I have a Walther PP in the safe.

https://aimsurplus.com/beretta-model...tandard-grade/

https://www.classicfirearms.com/bere...ood-very-good/
"Hot new pistol"?

Gun has been around since the 70's. The same model in 380 is the exact same size. Huge gun for .32 or .380. Bigger than a lot of compact 9mm's.


.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-06-2019, 01:28 PM
hatchet jack's Avatar
hatchet jack hatchet jack is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South of Ft Worth
Posts: 793
Thanks: 1,082
Thanked 1,251 Times in 526 Posts
Default

Quote:
"Hot new pistol"?

Gun has been around since the 70's. The same model in 380 is the exact same size. Huge gun for .32 or .380. Bigger than a lot of compact 9mm's.
"New" as in they are now being imported in bulk from European police departments in quantity and are being discussed on several other gun forums. And I didn't say it was "new". I said it was "the" new 32acp to have per some of the other gun forums. You might try reading a little closer next time.

And not every gun has to fit in your watch pocket. Some of us buy guns to target shoot and have fun with so a hide out gun is not always wanted or needed. And a bigger gun is nearly always easier to shoot.

The new to me Taurus TCP in 380 weighs 10oz and is almost as small as a Kel-Tec 32. But it has quite a bit of recoil and is not easy to shoot because of its tiny size. But it serves a purpose. On the other hand my Walther PP in 32acp or my buds Walther PPK in 380 while much larger are far more pleasant to shoot.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to hatchet jack For This Useful Post:
Old 09-06-2019, 04:00 PM
Outpost75 Outpost75 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Outside the Moderate Damage Radius, over the mountain and far away.
Posts: 2,674
Thanks: 2,292
Thanked 5,602 Times in 1,895 Posts
Default

Picked up my Beretta 81 pistol this week. Field stripping and visual inspection it looks almost new, no wear of anodize on rails. Great DA trigger pull like a revolver. SA trigger pull like a .45 hardball gun.

At the range found that the gun "eats everything."
The 3.82” barrel length gives really good velocity.
Nice handling for rapid, 2-second double and triple taps, very light recoil, quick recovery.

Chamber is tight. Handloads must be run through the Lee Factory Crimp Die, because any case mouth bulge from excessive crimp and the slide won’t close fully. After taking this precaution all the reloads ran, even with Accurate 31-095T which has ¼” diameter flat nose! No bobbles with any of the ammos.

Buffalo Bore 75-grain FN in .32 ACP is only 0.915” OAL and it jams in every other .32 ACP pistol I have. In the Beretta 81 it runs like a pony trotting. POI is 3” above front sight, all in bull of timed & rapid-fire repair center at 25 yds. with 6:00 hold.
Buffalo Bore 75-grain gives 1016 fps, 5 Sd, 11 ES for 12-shots

Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ 964 fps, 26 Sd, 65 ES, all in the timed and rapid-fire black, 4” group at 25 yards. typical accuracy for a .32 ACP pistol firing ball ammo.

Remington 71-grain FMJ 914 fps, 23 Sd, 62 ES, again typical grouping well centered.

Old Western “Bullseye” logo box, WW2 era 74-grain FMJ 1050 fps, 25 Sd, 84 ES, round 3-inch group well centered in bull using 6:00 hold. Hottest factory load fired today, but I didn’t bring any S-B to shoot...

Group 2 +P .32 ACP “Buffalo Loads”

Accurate 31-087T, Starline case, Fed. 200, 3 grains AutoComp, OAL 0.955” 992 fps, 26 Sd, 93 ES - Equals .380 ACP energy!

Accurate 31-095T, Starline case, Fed. 200, 2 grains Titegroup, OAL 0.945” 946 fps, 13 Sd, 36 ES. - Equals .380 ACP energy!

After running 50 rounds of the heavy-bullet, +P loads, there was no apparent peening of the aluminum alloy frame from slide impact.

It helps that these have VERY heavy recoil springs and it is difficult to rack the slide unless you cock the hammer first.

Attached some drawings of cast bullets I have shot in this gun which feed. Like I said, eats anything!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	32ACP_Bullets 007.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	32.2 KB
ID:	291590   Click image for larger version

Name:	31-077B-D.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	26.5 KB
ID:	291592   Click image for larger version

Name:	31-084H-D.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	33.7 KB
ID:	291594   Click image for larger version

Name:	31-087B-D.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	30.6 KB
ID:	291596   Click image for larger version

Name:	31-090B-D.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	34.3 KB
ID:	291598   Click image for larger version

Name:	31-094H-D.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	30.0 KB
ID:	291600  

Click image for larger version

Name:	32ACPBuffaloBore-etc 002.JPG
Views:	9
Size:	30.1 KB
ID:	291602   Click image for larger version

Name:	32ACP_HdyXTPExpTest3grsAutoComp.jpg
Views:	15
Size:	66.2 KB
ID:	291604   Click image for larger version

Name:	31-095T-D.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	31.8 KB
ID:	291610   Click image for larger version

Name:	BerettaM81.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	84.0 KB
ID:	291640  
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Outpost75 For This Useful Post:
Old 09-06-2019, 05:13 PM
hatchet jack's Avatar
hatchet jack hatchet jack is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South of Ft Worth
Posts: 793
Thanks: 1,082
Thanked 1,251 Times in 526 Posts
Default

You gotta stop it Outpost. I really want one of these but don't need to spend the money right now. Sounds like you are having a good time with yours. I loaded some Lee 100gr lead round nose in 50 rounds but haven't tried them yet. But they hand cycle through my old PP made in 1957. (that doesn't really sound right does it).

The big thing everyone is looking for are spare mags. From what I have read if you find them they are close to $50 a piece. Here is a little reading on 32acp guns from C.E. Harris. He is the reason I loaded some of the 100gr lead.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharri...cles/32ACP.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharri...Previsited.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharri.../32popguns.htm
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to hatchet jack For This Useful Post:
Old 09-07-2019, 06:36 AM
drobs's Avatar
drobs drobs is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8,085
Thanks: 11,913
Thanked 8,005 Times in 4,063 Posts
Default

If those Beretta's were in 380, I might buy one. 32 - hard pass, have too many calibers as it is right now.
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-08-2019, 10:43 AM
HappyinID's Avatar
HappyinID HappyinID is online now
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,383
Thanks: 2,719
Thanked 4,454 Times in 2,047 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchet jack View Post
"New" as in they are now being imported in bulk from European police departments in quantity and are being discussed on several other gun forums. And I didn't say it was "new". I said it was "the" new 32acp to have per some of the other gun forums. You might try reading a little closer next time.
Sorry, when you said "These seem to be the hot new 32 to have" I should have realized what you meant.

My bad.

.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to HappyinID For This Useful Post:
Old 09-08-2019, 11:11 AM
HappyinID's Avatar
HappyinID HappyinID is online now
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,383
Thanks: 2,719
Thanked 4,454 Times in 2,047 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchet jack View Post
And not every gun has to fit in your watch pocket. Some of us buy guns to target shoot and have fun with so a hide out gun is not always wanted or needed. And a bigger gun is nearly always easier to shoot.
Of course. I wasn't editorializing on the gun, merely pointing out some factual information for those who haven't handled one. For those used to modern tiny .380's and 9's, it is a big pistol by comparison.

I own a number of larger .32's, Beretta in the single column variety, FN, Mauser, Walthers, and Colts, and I enjoy shooting them all. While I don't have an 81 in .32, I have the same gun in .380.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchet jack View Post
The new to me Taurus TCP in 380 weighs 10oz and is almost as small as a Kel-Tec 32. But it has quite a bit of recoil and is not easy to shoot because of its tiny size. But it serves a purpose. On the other hand my Walther PP in 32acp or my buds Walther PPK in 380 while much larger are far more pleasant to shoot.
Interesting. I find the little Kel Tec to be more pleasant to shoot than my PPK's in .380, but that illustrates differences in personal differences in feel.


.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to HappyinID For This Useful Post:
Old 09-09-2019, 09:30 AM
Metric Metric is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 193
Thanks: 26
Thanked 231 Times in 102 Posts
Default

Agree with the basic sentiment here. I shoot .32, but not .380 (at least not my own).

It's easy to make a microscopic .380 these days, but not one that is easy to control in rapid fire.

Those surplus Berettas are a work of art, btw. How many of today's current-production pistols are going to be as desirable in 40 years? Here's mine:

Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Metric For This Useful Post:
Old 09-09-2019, 10:31 AM
hatchet jack's Avatar
hatchet jack hatchet jack is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South of Ft Worth
Posts: 793
Thanks: 1,082
Thanked 1,251 Times in 526 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
Sorry, when you said "These seem to be the hot new 32 to have" I should have realized what you meant.

My bad.
No problem. I knew they weren't new guns. Most report the ones they have were made around 1980.

Quote:
Interesting. I find the little Kel Tec to be more pleasant to shoot than my PPK's in .380, but that illustrates differences in personal differences in feel.
My bud bought an FEG PA-63 in 9mm Makarov, a supposed copy of the actuall Makarov and both of us think that it recoils more than a Makarov even though its the same basic gun. But it hurts my palm to shoot it. My bud will shoot about two mags and he is done with it. On the other hand full bore 158gr 357 rounds from my 4" GP-100 are nothing to shoot.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to hatchet jack For This Useful Post:
Old 02-13-2020, 01:00 PM
Outpost75 Outpost75 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Outside the Moderate Damage Radius, over the mountain and far away.
Posts: 2,674
Thanks: 2,292
Thanked 5,602 Times in 1,895 Posts
Default

I thought it would be a good idea to repost this summary of .32 ACP wisdom, which is a compilation from multiple posts of mine, being here consolidated in one place:

Pocket Pistol Wisdom from Down on "The Farm"

My mentor, the late Harry J. Archer was a career clandestine services officer who served from the post-WWII cold war period through the Vietnam era. Harry was the real-life equivalent of Jack Bauer or Jason Bourne, surviving Cold War era covert missions in denied areas, later in life becoming a highly respected case officer and trainer down at The Farm, at Camp Peary, Toano, VA, (off I64 near Williamsburg) finally retiring and living long enough to die peacefully at home in bed in New Market, VA.

Harry taught that the purpose of a concealed handgun was to neutralize immediate threats from contact distance to about twenty feet to facilitate escape. When deployed without official cover, he carried whatever handgun was common among criminal elements in the country where the mission took him. This often meant a .32 ACP or 7.65mm Browning, because a M1911, Colt or S&W revolver would make it obvious that he wasn't "a local."

While no .32 ACP is your first choice for defense, the first rule of gun fighting is to HAVE A GUN. In the worst-case scenario any gun is better than no gun at all. The .32 is a great "get off me" gun. Many countries restrict foreign nationals working corporate security for non-government clients from carrying anything larger than a .22 LR or .32 ACP, so you must "dance with the girl you brought."

A .32 autopistol is easy to control to produce rapid, accurate double or triple taps, compared to a .380 or 9mm of similar size, which carries one less round. The former Italian municipal police .32 ACP Beretta 81 double-stack magazine pistols now being imported have a heavy slide and heavy-duty 16-pound recoil spring, like the Model 84 .380 pistol they are based upon. This mitigates the frame pounding effect of firing Euro loads assembled with 73-77 grain bullets which are loaded about 50 fps faster than US 71-grain FMJs. In .32 ACP caliber the Beretta 81 with its 12+1 magazine capacity is also a big "plus."

Back in the 1960s-70s Harry's .32 carry load was the Winchester 100-grain .32-20 lead flat-nosed Lubaloy bullet assembled in "sterile" unheadstamped (WWII WRA) primed cases with 3 grains of Hercules Infallible powder, which had a burning rate between modern Unique and Herco, at 0.95" OAL, giving 870 +/- 30 fps from a Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless Type III with 3-3/4” barrel. This approximated the energy of .32-20 factory loads fired from a revolver of the same barrel length, from a concealable pocket pistol, so was a powerful and effective load. Accurate 31-095T with 2 grs. of TiteGroup does the same with near full-caliber "crush," a full-charge load not to be exceeded!

In actual chronograph testing modern production 71-grain US .32 ACP hardball typically seldom exceeds 850 fps from a pistol with barrel shorter than 3 inches, whereas WW2 era 73-74 grain hardball by WRA, Peters or Remington-UMC produced velocities little different in velocity than European ammo of the period.

Current production Speer Gold Dot and Hornady XTP JHPs do break 900 fps, but seldom expand much from barrels shorter than 3-1/2.” European CIP 73-77 grain hardball such as Fiocchi, RWS, Geco, Norma, Sako, Hirtenberg or Sellier & Bellot produce about 900 f.p.s. from short-barrel pistols such as the Beretta Tomcat, and 950+ f.p.s. from the CZ27, CZ50, Walther PP, SIG P230, or Beretta M1935, M70 and M81. European police felt the .32 ACP entirely adequate until the 1972 Munich Olympics terrorist attack. In particular muncipal police in administrative vs. operational capacities carried holster pistols as a "badge of authority" because off-duty concealed carry was not permitted and their work posed a low risk of violence comnpared to their Federal or National police organizations comprised of the serious "operators" tasked with apprehending organized crime and terrorists.

When using a marginal caliber, feeding reliability, shot placement, proven ability to produce accurate and rapid multiple hits with deep penetration are most important. You want not less than 20” of water or 12” of gelatin penetration. Professional users of deep-concealment, hideaway guns agree, based on police and military experience dating back to Fairbairn and Sykes exploits in China before WW2, and continuing through the Cold War era. Light-weight, short-nosed, hollow-point bullets often fail to feed and may also fail to penetrate larger bones or defeat intermediate cover, such as a defensively positioned arm, thereby failing to reach vital organs.

Comparing European CIP specification 73-77-grain .32 ACP hardball to typical .380 FMJs fired from similarly short barrels any difference in lethality is not enough to be important. Light-weight .380 ACP bullets of fragile enough construction to expand from very short barrels, such as in the Ruger LCP, often fail to penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs. Typical Euro 73-77 grain hardball typically does a 180-degree "flip" during its first 6-8" of soft-target penetration, continuing base-first to cause more damage than its kinetic energy would suggest. Bullets tend to bounce around "like a billard ball" inside the body cavity, rather than penetrating in a straight path "rather making a mess of things" according to my shooting buddy "ER Doc" in Washington, DC who has considerable experience treating the victims of gang bangers and dopers. The pelvic bone adjacent the groin is only about 4.5mm thick. A double-tap to the lateral pelvis with .32 ACP hardball causes massive damage, extensive bleeding and amply incapacitating pain, he says. "A finishing head shot afterwards usually indicates a professional hit, so I don't get those in the ER, the ME does."

In my testing of numerous different .32 ACP pocket guns, no JHP loads currently available expand reliably in either water jugs or gelatin when fired from barrels shorter than 3 inches. US commercial .32 ACP loads are all "anemic" compared to their CIP-Euro counterparts and less reliable in function. Many WWII-era European .32 auto holster pistols steadfastly refuse to function with US ammo, even 75-grain Buffalo Bore, which otherwise is the best US load IF your gun will run it.

JHP and hard cast lead flat-nosed .32 ACP rounds such as Buffalo Bore, which are less than 0.945" overall cartridge length, are not reliable enough for defense carry due to rimlock when rounds may shuffle in the magazine stack, due to recoil. In most guns short rounds are a sure recipe for the dreaded “Jam-O-Matic.”

The Beretta 81 is the only .32 ACP pistol I have tested which ran Buffalo Bore 75-grain hard-cast FN out of the box with no drips, runs or errors. The heavy slide and stiff recoil spring of the Beretta 81 series also helps to mitigate against heavier loads pounding its light-alloy frame to the death, a common cause of premature failure in the Keltec and Beretta Tomcat "mouse guns" when shot a lot.

The best .32 ACP pistols for pocket carry should enable safe carry with the chamber loaded. They should also be capable of immediate firing by stroking the trigger without having to manipulate an external safety. In the event of a misfire, the trigger mechanism should enable an immediate repeat strike upon the primer by repeating the trigger stroke. The gun should also produce not less than 0.010" copper indent on the government "C" sized .225x.400" copper crusher when used in the government gage holder. While drawings for the gage holders are in the public domain, coppers are not available to the gunsmith trade, but only to gun manufacturers and the labs who assess compliance with government contracts. The last time I bought any, the sole source was Olin, the minimum order 1000 coppers, and (in 2001) they cost about $1 each.

So... gunsmiths and police armorers developed a "work-around." The Federal 200 primer used to be designated as being for "small rifle and magnum pistol," whereas today it is just "small pistol magnum." The base metal thickness of its primer cup is 0.018" + 0.0015"/-0.0000, the same as WW2 military M1 carbine and current military 9mm primers, versus 0.0125" + 0.0015/-0.000 for typical small pistol primers used in standard-pressure loads like the .32 ACP and .38 Special. The Remington 6-1/2 primer is analogous to the military .30 carbine primer and can be substituted for similar function tests.

The proven work-around is to assemble 100 rounds in new brass, or once-fired brass in which you are hand-seating the primers into a CLEAN primer pocket. Then fire 100 rounds for function. Accept on zero failures to fire. If you get ONE misfire, repeat another 100-round sample, and accept on a total of no more than 1 fail-to-fire in 200 rounds, reject on 2. If your pistol does not pass, check firing pin driven protrusion to be within in the range of 0.028-0.032," check headspace to be within SAAMI limits, replace the hammer spring and test fire again!

Pistols which readily meet these test criteria are the Walther PP (not the PPk) SIG P230, Mauser HSc, CZ27, original Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless (can't speak to the "re-pops") and the Beretta Models 1935, 70 and 81.

The micro-pistols such as the Keltec P-32 and Beretta Tomcat are attractive for concealment, but they are difficult to shoot well. They are also not as durable as holster-sized pistols when fed a steady diet of heavy CIP-Euro heavy-ball loads or a high volume [over 2500 rounds] of standard-pressure SAAMI loads. My advice is to severely limit loads producing over 130 ft.-lbs. to only occasional or emergency use in the micro pistols because they may cause “slide bite” if you have meaty hands and don’t use a Hogue Grip Sleeve, as I painfully found out. After firing over 1000 rounds, handloads with bullets over 80 grains and 850 fps from barrels less than 3 inches are “frame crackers.”

My Beretta Model 3032 INOX Tomcat, which replaced my earlier blued version (in which the frame cracked after less than 500 rounds of RWS hardball) did somewhat better, and digested 2000 rounds of hot CIP-Euro and heavy-bullet hand loads before its frame cracked. (I replaced my .32 Tomcat with the original model Ruger LCP .380 for deep cover carry. It is still soldiering on after 2000 rounds of 120-grain lead FN hand-loads with Accurate 35-120H and 2.5 grains of Bullseye).

The most effective carry load in the .32 ACP is a +P hand-load assembled with the Hornady 90-grain XTP bullet of .309" diameter with 3 grains of AutoComp, to an overall cartridge length of 0.950-0.955," which produces 930 fps. from a 3-1/2" barrel and 960 fps from the 3.8" Beretta 81. This load is best when limited to use in steel frame guns. If used in sturdy, alloy-frame holster guns with heavy slides and springs such as the Beretta 81 and M70 consider it +P and NOT for casual shooting in quantity if you want your gun to last!

ONLY IF your barrel slugs larger than .310" groove diameter, it is then OK substitute the Hornady 85-grain XTP .312" intended for the .32 H&R Magnum for the same result. XTP bullets fired from the .32 ACP do not expand spectacularly as depicted in gun magazine hype, but expand "some," to about .40 cal., so are more effective than FMJ, and penetrate deeply.

The classic Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless, Beretta 1935, CZ27, CZ50 and the Walther PP are steel-frame pistols which I have shot extensively with these heavy loads. These particular guns will reliably feed large flat-nosed bullets such as the Saeco #325 semi-wadcutter and the Accurate 31-095T. The Beretta 81 also feeds the large flat-nosed bullets and Buffalo Bore 75-grainers. In pistols which do not feed reliably with anything other than FMJRN "hardball" the best cast bullets are the 87-94 grain Accurate 31-087B, 31-087T and 31-094H.

If you intend to standardize on bullets heavier than 80 grains in your .32 ACP pistols, it is VERY highly recommended that you replace the standard recoil spring with a .380 ACP version for the same model pistol, if available.

Let’s be clear that the .32 ACP is not my choice as a defense gun against either two-legged or 4-legged predators. However, there are those times when “any gun is better than no gun,” so it is better to take an easily concealed .32 along than to go unarmed and take your chances. When the cylinder bulge of my usual Colt .38 Detective Special is too obvious, my 1903 Colt Pocket Hammerless, Beretta M1935 or SIG P230 drop nicely into a pocket holster. I shoot these better than my Ruger LCP .380 and like the fact that a .32 makes a bigger hole than a 22 but still presents a low profile. With correct loads performance is equal to most factory loads in the .380 ACP. Typical .32 ACP pistols give you an additional round of magazine capacity too.

We aren't talking about "one-shot stops" here, but to quickly and accurately put double or triple taps on target. The Italian Carabinieri practice 3-shots in 2 seconds at 5 metres or 2 shots in 2 seconds at 10 metres, aiming at a 10 cm x 8 cm oval which represents the nose, eyes and forehead of a terrorist. While these days they carry 9mm pistols, the drill dates back to the WW2 era and the .32 ACP and .380 ACP Berettas. Multiple hits increase stopping power.

Think of a .32 ACP as delivering a 00 buckshot pattern which arrives sequentially rather than concurrently. Do you want to stand in front of it? Didn't think so...

A historical anecdote from Caroline Moorehead's book "A House In The Mountains" pgs. 320-321 has lessons for us even today.

"After VE day the Allies insisted on collecting the weapons which had been air dropped to Italian partisans during the war. In order to prevent a Communist takeover there could be no weapons with which to do it. On 9 May 1945 the process of disarming the Italian partisans began. The fighters were invited to assemble at collection centers to turn in their weapons and ammunition and in return would receive a bolt of cloth and 7000L with which to turn it into civilian dress. The handover was staged with some degree of ceremony with flags, military bands and political speeches... But the organizers did not understand that the men and women they were dealing with were not eager, self-respecting and docile, but seasoned, war-weary combat veterans who did not trust this new set of occupiers any more than the Germans.

As the weapons were being handed over the Allies noticed that they consisted mostly of larger items, bazookas, mortars, machineguns and large quantities of bolt-action rifles, but very few of the SMGs, pistols, revolvers and semi-automatic carbines which were so much in evidence in the days leading up to The Liberation... Borne away into the valleys, concealed in attics, barns and cellars or buried in pits in the garden were scores of grenades, carbines, SMGs, pistols and revolvers. Later the Allies who made over 50 raids across the Italian Piedmont in search of hidden weapons would estimate that less than 60 percent of what had been dropped was actually returned."


##
Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net