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Old 08-17-2019, 12:10 PM
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Default Inexpensive defensive fixed blades...



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While I do have some nice customs, I've recently been carrying and using two small fixed blades from CRKT. They are pretty inexpensive, mediocre steel, but quality designs and execution with pretty versatile sheath systems.

I've had to down-size my carry knives for the summer, so I wanted some small, more compact fixed blades. The two are less utilitarian and more defensive-oriented, so understand my focus.

The CRKT Scrub:



and the CRKT Burnley Obake:



What I've been playing around with is carry options. I do carry a handgun, so these are mostly carried on the weakside. Right now, I really like the Obake carried IWB along side my spare magazine. I'm using an angled IWB clip, so it doesn't print at all when covered by a T-shirt. It's easy to access with my left had (pulled out in a reverse grip). I haven't tried the Scrub there yet, but plan to. I have carried the scrub with some synthetic small-of-back belt loops (ala horizontal scout carry), and it rides very flat, even a T-shrit covers it up well. Just a few quick thoughts about some smaller defensive fixed blades at very reasonable prices that can be carried discreetly with their versatile sheath systems. More to follow as I continue to integrate them into my attire and various carry methods.

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Old 08-17-2019, 07:31 PM
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Along those lines ........



I have this blade, but an earlier model. I depend upon it heavily for shaving the callous off the side of my big toe. It has never let me down, holds a razor edge, small enough to avoid accidental toe amputation, and I feel really ninja when I use it ........ what's not to like?

Seriously, going so small reaches a point of diminishing returns as to the criteria for a self defense knife. Once the blade is less than six inches, it becomes mostly a slashing tool. It's nice to have enough length to reach internal organs if the opportunity presents itself.

Oh yes, little needle tips, there is nothing more disappointing than to stab somebody with one of those and have the tip snap off in the bone ...... it is depressing, ruin your whole day.
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Old 08-17-2019, 07:36 PM
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The cold steel tanto boot knife called something. Would fit right in there.

The kobun
https://youtu.be/8nFVi5_YIlY
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Old 08-17-2019, 07:57 PM
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As we thread drift into outer space here ..........



The cold steel recon tanto. Two of these is what I feel comfortable with, given that it takes a lot for me to feel comfortably equipped when somebody wants to kill me.

I sanded the griptoid stuff off the end of the handle to be able to change my grip on the blade without it hanging up. Also I removed the drag inducing epoxy coating, and blued the blades. These blades are really tough, long enough without reaching short sword level, and they are concealable with a bit of thought. One on the inside of each forearm works well, and they are quickly accessible.

No, I am not instructing anybody to break any laws, you do as you see fit, and suffer the possible consequences of your decisions.

The guy in the picture is demonstrating the idiot grip, or how to get a broken thumb, drop your knife, and get beaten to death as a result.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:21 PM
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I go with the Kobun also for a lightweight EDC fixed blade. I usually carry it in a Scout carry position.

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Old 08-18-2019, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enemy mind View Post
Seriously, going so small reaches a point of diminishing returns as to the criteria for a self defense knife. Once the blade is less than six inches, it becomes mostly a slashing tool. It's nice to have enough length to reach internal organs if the opportunity presents itself.

Oh yes, little needle tips, there is nothing more disappointing than to stab somebody with one of those and have the tip snap off in the bone ...... it is depressing, ruin your whole day.
I don't disagree, but this is meant for EDC, needing to be smaller as it's not a primary defensive tool. I don't expect such a small fixed blade to be an incapacitating weapon, it's simply something I can use if my primary is immobilized so as to create space. Stabs and slashes are more for the visual attack so I can bring a more lethal means to bear. While a longer blade is more effective, it's been proven that a blade as short as 3" can be lethal and penetrate critical organs; both of these have blades just over 3.5". Again, that's not my primary purpose and size does matter for carrying. I've been carrying the Obake IWB along-side my spare magazine and opposite my Sig P365. The goal is to have a weakside option to create space and either free up my strong-arm/handgun if pinned or trapped.



The angled IWB clip works almost too well at keeping the blade in tight. I may have to do some minor adjustments as it was actually less comfortable than my P365 IWB.



Big blades are excellent, but I can't carry anything over 4" comfortably. My largest is a custom tanto with a 5.5" blade and an excellent IWB sheath, but it's best suited to cold-weather clothing carry.

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I go with the Kobun also for a lightweight EDC fixed blade. I usually carry it in a Scout carry position.
I was actually looking at the Kobun to carry in a figure-8 "Mercharness", especially when driving long distances. It can even be worn under a T-shirt pretty discreetly, but it really excels between a base T-shirt and a polo shirt.

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Old 08-18-2019, 05:12 PM
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This was the custom I carried in Afghanistan (BRT Bladeworks, 5" Kraiken). It's about three time as heavy as the Kobun, a little thicker overall, but the special covered/lined aluminum sheath is pretty unique for the slip-in-the-waist-band carry method; which it does extremely well. I plan to carry it a little more frequently this winter when I can dress around it better. I'm still interested in the CS Kobun, only because it's lighter, thinner, and about 20 times cheaper



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Old 08-18-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
This was the custom I carried in Afghanistan (BRT Bladeworks, 5" Kraiken). It's about three time as heavy as the Kobun, a little thicker overall, but the special covered/lined aluminum sheath is pretty unique for the slip-in-the-waist-band carry method; which it does extremely well. I plan to carry it a little more frequently this winter when I can dress around it better. I'm still interested in the CS Kobun, only because it's lighter, thinner, and about 20 times cheaper







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Beautiful Knife!

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Old 08-18-2019, 07:51 PM
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Glad to see this thread going. Been a long time since we had a good knife discussion.

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Old 08-18-2019, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
I don't expect such a small fixed blade to be an incapacitating weapon, it's simply something I can use if my primary is immobilized so as to create space.
What are your thoughts on push daggers in this role?



I have one of these, but never carry it, and have never trained with it. I saw it as limited in comparison to the recon tanto. Maybe I should reconsider its potential usefulness.

That Kraiken is very nice. I worry about carrying any knife that I would be upset if it were to be seized by the law.
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Old 08-18-2019, 09:32 PM
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I've been employing a Gerber Mark I. They keep going up in value and are getting harder to find a good should a replacement be needed. I'm considering putting it in the safe and going with a current production clone.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:36 AM
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The bigger problem is training.
Most knife fights both are hit. (I am told)
Best knife fight, your not there.
Wearing a fighting knife in public is difficult to defend in court.
Why are going into a place you know is a potential danger?
Counter wise wearing a knife relative to your job ,like a pen , you use it as the opportunity arises in your work. It doesn't take a sword to open mail, but a box knife might be appropriate .
Secondly how do you know that some one might take your knife from you ?
Firstly I am very aware of my environment and pay close attention to the potential threats that venture in. Don't you ?
Today while sitting in a coffee shop some kids (skate boarders) came in and sat behind me the biggest one sat there scooting his chair against mine either thoughtlessly or trying to be punk . I gave no response, but I listened to their conversation carefully.
and realized they had been playing hard and the moves were purely of exhaustion nothing more.
Its not wise to jump to convulsions ( conclusions ) and had their conversation shown trouble I was readying my self for it.
Rarely does a predator give warning. but worse is that when he has, and you've done nothing.
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:35 AM
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Why not just a good Mora?
Sharp as hell, utilitarian to boot.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
The bigger problem is training.
Most knife fights both are hit. (I am told)
First rule of a knife fight, You WILL get cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Wearing a fighting knife in public is difficult to defend in court.
Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

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Why are going into a place you know is a potential danger?
Like Walmart?

There is no place that is 100% guaranteed to be safe.


A defensive knife is a last ditch tool for when all else has failed.
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
...While a longer blade is more effective, it's been proven that a blade as short as 3" can be lethal and penetrate critical organs; both of these have blades just over 3.5". Again, that's not my primary purpose and size does matter for carrying. ...ROCK6
'Working girls' in the Victorian era often carried small triangular bladed knives for the express purpose of creating space to get away from dangerous 'customers'. The psychological benefit of having a small, innocuous weapon that, in those days, was almost certain to leave a dangerously infected wound, often proved to be a valuable deterrent.
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:44 AM
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What are your thoughts on push daggers in this role?

That Kraiken is very nice. I worry about carrying any knife that I would be upset if it were to be seized by the law.
I'm a big advocate of push/punch knives. Training is pretty straight forward and I had a few I trained with and carried daily in Afghanistan. These aren't necessarily something you want to whip out in a knife fight, but their value is a close-range, backup/weak-side tool to assist in creating distance from a threat which is how I trained with mine. The three I've been using are the smaller KaBar TDI, the Benchmade Azeria, and the Colonel punch knife.





My environment the past year and half was a little unique. I had to wear armor for advising, often in the close quarters of an up-armored vehicle, advised in close quarters, etc. I was able to draw and employ these blades with pretty decent force with only about six inches of maneuver space. Longer blades were just as difficult to access as the handgun in the cramped confines of a vehicle with a plate-carrier on. While I didn't really carry them concealed, these actually conceal very well.

I put push-daggers/knives in the same category, but there is some debate on actual implementation. I think the difference is minor, but many punch-knife advocates argue that training is similar to boxing or punch, just with a lethal edge. Of course, if I have enough space to assume a boxer's fighting position, I can access and employ my handgun. What I will say is that I can achieve a lot of power within six inches with a punch knife and while it is debatable if the smaller blades will achieve the necessary penetration depth, my requirements was less about incapacitation by knife and more about creating distance to either break contact or create enough distance to employ a more lethal means (firearm).

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The bigger problem is training.

Wearing a fighting knife in public is difficult to defend in court.
Why are going into a place you know is a potential danger?

Secondly how do you know that some one might take your knife from you?
Firstly I am very aware of my environment and pay close attention to the potential threats that venture in. Don't you?
Agreed on training. I'm no knife fighter and have zero desire to train to that level. These types of defensive knives are backups to assist in creating distance to employ another means (one that can be employed at distance) to stop the threat. What I will say, there are some basic techniques that are easy to incorporate into your CCW training; most are pretty much simple techniques that don't require any fine-motor skills or manipulation; punch, stab, slash. The biggest challenge I've found is having an accessible carry system that allows positive/consistent access and employment, and that is done with my weak-hand. Even with the above addressed, employ such a tool from less conventional (and more common) positions is where the challenge picks up. With knife or gun, it's employment in extremely tight/cramped quarters, from a chair, sitting in a vehicle, etc.

My Concealed Weapons License covers knives the same as handguns. If I'm ever in a position where I have to pull my gun or employ a knife, defense in court wouldn't be a consideration and would be the last thing on my mind. You do scenario training for that, use common sense, sound judgement, and prudent decision making to avoid any situations that would put your actions in question. I'll worry about my defense in court after surviving an encounter and won't let fear of prosecution affect my training or focus on surviving a lethal encounter. I train, I have legal representation, and I avoid bad areas at bad times; worrying about how my defensive tools or methods are perceived post-attack are really not a concern and wasted effort.

No offense arleigh, but the false-argument that persists is that anybody who uses some tool for self-defense always hears the fallacy that the defender is inept and will have their defensive tool taken from them and used against them; it's simply ridiculous and hypothetical ignorance. Can it happen? Sure, but anybody who drives can get in an accident, maybe nobody should drive? The analogy isn't perfect the lunacy of the argument is exactly the same.

I'm the opposite of most. If someone wants to exercise their own right-to-life and carry a defensive tool for their own personal protection, I will assume they take the extra step to get training and continue training; I always make that recommendation as well. I would also contend that those who take their personal protection seriously understand the importance of situational awareness, conflict avoidance, and a competent decision making process. I just hate the absolute elitist-mentality and condescension that if you're not some MMA/Black Belt, SWAT-trained, Special Forces, Commando-Sniper, that you're an inept moron that shouldn't carry any defensive tools because you're too stupid to defend yourself and will likely hurt yourself or a bystander instead of the threat. It's a hollow and ignorant viewpoint.

I do fully agree with you that situational awareness (and conflict avoidance) is the best strategy outside of just avoiding bad situations to being with. When it comes to defensive tools, I would much rather have and not need than need and not have...

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Originally Posted by rio nueces View Post
Why not just a good Mora?
Sharp as hell, utilitarian to boot.
I have several Mora knives; excellent knives. The only thing that sucks is their sheath, and to some extend most have pretty thick handles which makes them harder to carry discreetly. I served with several Swedish and Finnish contingents and the Mora was a commonly carry tool. I think in those cultures open carry of a Mora knife would be common and they would be a good defensive tool if pressed. The would really need a better sheath system and a thinner handle for my purposes.

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Old 08-19-2019, 07:52 PM
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First I will say that I enjoyed your post, as you take the time to explain in some depth.

Quote:
Longer blades were just as difficult to access as the handgun in the cramped confines of a vehicle with a plate-carrier on.
I understand why you would think so, but it depends on where the longer blade is carried, longer blade as in the 7" tanto I advocated. If the blade is carried to the front of the side, above the waist, where the natural geometry of the arm being such that one can simply grasp the handle of the blade with the arm against the body, draw the blade in an upward motion, blade down and edge forward, still without extending outwards away from the body, then a slash/punch could be employed, and on the recovery, straight back to the body, a slight change of tip angle can achieve a stab into the side of the neck, or down behind the clavicle into the chest cavity.

This is why I thought the push dagger limited in comparison to the tanto, both can be employed with a punching motion, shallow stab for the push dagger, slash with the tanto ( held blade down, edge forward), but the tanto affords one more opportunities at that point, the hooking back or downward stab which at a minimum is going to throw the opponent temporarily off balance, if not incapacitate him. The push dagger could only afford a slash on recovery, no deep penetration, no hooking to throw the opponent off balance.

Just my opinion of course, but I think the tanto could easily be employed within six inches of space.

Quote:
I had to wear armor for advising, often in the close quarters of an up-armored vehicle
This is a horror to me, as I get somewhat claustrophobic in such circumstances. Things get really desperate and ugly in the clinch in fighting, and that is exactly your starting point if violence starts, as you described it, packed into those vehicles. I prefer my war environment over what you guys had to deal with, the jungle, no armor, no confining steel boxes full of people one could not trust, just the jungle, where one could hide, strike from ambush, withdraw into the darkness of the vegetation if necessary.

Quote:
My Concealed Weapons License covers knives the same as handguns.
I was told by the deputy dealing with such things that knives were not covered by the concealed weapons license in NC. I thought this to be absurd, but then I think a lot of the law is absurd. So if I carry any blade such as a tanto, push dagger, etc, I am at risk of arrest for doing so.

In general I think most people are more fearful of knives than they are of firearms, and so they demand laws to disallow anybody carrying blades that are really effective for defense/offense.

I get tired of hearing this; in a knife fight both people will get cut. In a sense this has a high probability, but the reality is so much more. We hypnotize ourselves with these sorts of sayings, and thereby limit ourselves. Many people will not even attempt to take advantage of training in blades, out of fear that it would be futile, as in they are definitely going to get cut no matter how much they know.

A case in point, a true story, not me, that you may find entertaining and informative. This knife fight lasted no more than three seconds from the first strike. Person A runs person B off the road into a ditch with his vehicle. Both exit their respective vehicles. Person A is armed with a small knife, possibly a folder, kept close to body. Person B is armed with a gerber mk II hidden behind right thigh. Persons A and B approach one another. Person B asks WTF, and gets nailed with a fast left hook to the head by person A. This is where it goes into overdrive. Person A attempts to follow up hook with jab with knife in right hand. Person B upon receiving strike to head attempts thrust to midsection of person A with knife. Person A turns slightly to avoid thrust to midsection. Knife of person B misses body of Person A because of turn, but blade impacts person A at the inside elbow of right arm on recovery from attempted thrust. The force of the return results in a cut to Person A's right arm from the inside elbow to the outside wrist, to the bone, severing muscle, tendons, arteries, veins. Person A drops his knife, staggers backward in shock with immediate massive blood loss, and at this point person B could have easily killed him. Fight ended at this point, and companion of person A rushes his buddy to the hospital, which saves his life.

Person B talks to law enforcement a few days later, and no action is taken by law enforcement. The logic of the law enforcement being that person A was a scumbag, from a family of the same, and they wished they would all meet an untimely demise. A week earlier one of the family had shot one of their own family with a shotgun over some disagreement, nearly killing them.

So, a knife fight, with only one cut to one participant. From what I have heard from people who have experience in these things, this is not unusual, and especially so if one person is trained and the other is not. This would lead the logical person to conclude that acquiring all the training one can in this form of combat would be advantageous. No this does not mean that one should seek out opportunities to get in knife fights, because as I said, there is a high probability of being injured, but that is by no means a certainty, especially with acquired expertise.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:52 PM
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For EDC defensive purposes I have a hard time not picking a tanto. But generally I have a pistol so my benchmade north fork is my usual companion.

As long as there's a drop point it can be defensive in a pinch.
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Old 08-24-2019, 03:51 AM
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For smaller fighting blades you can easily conceal it helps to look at throwing blade offerings.

Granted, most are cheap steel and you have to wade through a bunch of offerings to find one that will hold a decent edge and isn't just a pointed metal stick, but the cheap knife makers make them in a million shapes for the idiots who think that throwing away your weapon is a good idea. But because they come in small sets instead of singles you can buy with the express ability to ditch it if you think having it is an impending bust, and then go back home and replace it.

Many come with narrow handles and long double sided blades, ripe to hone a decent double edge and well wrap with friction tape or parachute cord to beef up handling characteristics. Fashioning a clip sheath for boot or waistband isn't that hard either. You do need a good edge but since it is only for fighting you don't have to wade through a million cheap offerings to find one where they went with super grade knife steel. It's affordable, reasonably disposable, and should keep the edge you need long enough for the hopefully brief knife fight. Long knife fights are not worth planning around.

People considering a knife fight typically and rightfully ignore all these Bud-K and the sort throwing knife offerings because only mall ninjas load up with a spread of throwing knives. You just need to look at them as one carry knife with affordable replacements in the box.



Something like this with a good base of paracord and hockey stick tape wrap can be sharpened for a few minutes of good fighting and then ditched over a stream bridge as you exit the area. If you survived the fight mostly intact then you could go home and make up a new one.

Trust me, they didn't use D2 tool steel in the early Sykes Fairbain blades and they didn't demand hard use from it. But they were the OSS early standard for knife fighting. It was mostly about shape, concealability, and skill. Jim Bowie died over a century ago and we haven't had much call for his brand of fighting knives since. If big is what you want then pick up a surplus WW1 bayonet. Cheap and proven in literally thousands of trench knife fights. Otherwise go smaller and simpler like a Kunai blade with some handle help.
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:48 PM
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While size and weight are a factor for me, I really consider the sheath and carry system equally as important as the blade itself. Access, securely staying place (and keeping the knife sheathed), along with a comfortable means to carry are all factors I really consider and find important.

I recall the movie "Close" where the female body guard carried a small shiv strapped to her calf; simple, small, easy to access. My primary defensive tool is a handgun, so I really don't need a large knife, nor do I have the desire to try and carry one opposite my gun. I like the idea of the smaller, inexpensive throwing blades, but I would have to have a sheath and carry system made...good suggestion.

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