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Old 03-06-2016, 12:56 PM
seawind seawind is offline
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Keep in mind the orignal question, Man, wife, kids, BOB whats the trade off food/water or more ammo? When it comes to the family's survival I'd say more food/water as opposed to loading down with ammo. Those who favor more ammo over more food/water what scenarios are you thinking about? Remember were not talking about a inch situation.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Elisavaet View Post
Its always about the run and gun Delta operator scenario with you guys. We're talking about a bug out back here not an inch bag and there was no mention of WROL SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.

Try and maintain some perspective.
If you are WALKING back, that indicates that there is, at a minimum, a local WROL/SHTF situation. Else, why walk?
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by seawind View Post
Those who favor more ammo over more food/water what scenarios are you thinking about?
Keep in mind you can go much longer without food than water. Water is one of the "three's" of survival

3 minutes without air
3 hours without shelter
3 days without water
3 weeks without food


Extra rounds might not seem like a 'necessity' but until someone finds a way to accurately predict the stupidity of people, I would follow a 'risk matrix' type of approach.
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Old 03-07-2016, 11:16 AM
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If you are WALKING back, that indicates that there is, at a minimum, a local WROL/SHTF situation. Else, why walk?
Your profile says you experienced Katrina, so you are familiar with a situation where there has been a localized emergency but the rule of law is still in place and the ball has not dropped.

People may end up on foot for a lot of reasons other than a WROL or Ball Drop scenario including car problems, fuel shortage, and traffic jams due to fuel shortage, accidents, etc.

Even in an actual ball drop scenario, let's use Lucifer's Hammer as an easy example, WROL will likely not occur for several days to several weeks. People will have to get hungry and give up on FEMA before they are willing to just commit capital crimes at random.

Of course I could be wrong, but the best I can do is try to understand the events of the past and make informed decisions for my future.

A bug out bag for me is for getting to my bug out location in the first few days of a major collapse or even a localized emergency. I am interested in making good time and getting there before things go WROL so I'm not stopping to hunt, trap, or fish by choice.

For me, bugging out on foot is force marching past all the clueless hordes waiting vainly for FEMA before they turn desperate. I'll have gear on me to fish hunt and fight, but the priority is on water calories and gear to support a twenty to thirty miles per day pace or more if I'm on my mountain bike. There will likely be at least local LEO out so I need to NOT look like a threat, so I am NOT going all 'Delta Operator', instead having more a 'gray woman' approach.

In the early stages of an emergency like this there will likely be few or no Mad Max types of gangs even if the event is foreseen like with Katrina or The Hammer. Because local LEO's will likely be out, in the few cases where violence does occur the LEO horde will likely flock there and kick the poo out of the pseudo-Rambo types that started it, and I'll be skirting furtively around the outskirts of that when possible, and will maintain situational awareness better than most because I'll be in shape, hydrated, and fed.

When I'm in shape I can do that pace with about half my body weight, so close to seventy pounds total. As a 56 year old, 5'2", 135 pound woman, I think that's pretty bad ass to be honest, but that's about the absolute max for me. I'll have to pack less if I'm off my grain. Of course I'll get a belly full of water before I step out of the door and probably take an extra gallon with the intention of drinking after I pee the first time. So I will NOT pack heavy, but I will pack an extra eight to ten pounds of water to be consumed and stored 'in body' within the first hour or so of travel.

I'll need about two gallons of water per day but, depending on my route can supplement with filtration so let's say 24 lbs of water. My pack, spare boots, knife, shelter, 72 hours of calories, etc., is probably going to bring that total up to about 45 lbs. That leaves 20 lbs absolute max for a rifle, pistol, and ammo. My rifle and pistol are about 11 of that, leaving 9 lbs for ammo. Ammo is going to run about 15 per pound so I'm looking at 135 rounds. I'll probably divide that along the lines of 80 .44Mag and 55 .30WCF.

If I need to travel farther or we're in the 117 degree days of summer here in the desert or I need to cut cross country due to the situation I'll have to plan on more water and calories and thus, make up that weight elsewhere, possibly ammo. I could see a situation where I would choose to leave my rifle and take only my handgun and perhaps fifty rounds. I wouldn't be HAPPY about that, but if the situation dictates more water I'm not going to cripple myself in the first few hours of triple digit heat with an overweight pack. I WILL be traveling at night when possible (my night vision is very good), but in August it's hot here 24x7. In the first week or so I can count on water from places as diverse as toilet tanks and hot water heaters to sustain me after being filtered, but after a week or so, or if I need to go cross country, that will no longer apply.

I am solo right now, so this scenario has me only tending to myself. Should I join a group or help friends I may need to carry additional supplies for children or those weaker than myself. Of course I could be the designated 'battlefield badass' and ONLY have to carry ammo and a half cup of water, but then someone is carrying water and calories for me aren't they? With a group my pace will be reduced by close to half of what I can do solo, perhaps more, so we'll all need to carry more water and calories.

That's basically the way I look at it, and those weights are WAY high for totals! Most recommend a bag weight of 25% of body weight so the 135 rounds is optimistic.

Others may see a bug out bag from a different perspective, or believe that we will descend into a nation wide WROL scenario almost immediately, and so may decide that it's fine within the first few days to pack mostly armament and prey on the weak. I don't see that scenario playing out that fast or well for those who try to take advantage of it, but we all have to make our own choices.

I'm going heavy water, medium to light on armament, and will do my best to look like a harmless little old blue haired lady.

If I run into a rogue SEAL team that wants to take my stuff I'll be out of luck. So it goes.

Namaste
Kate
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Old 03-07-2016, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elisavaet View Post
Your profile says you experienced Katrina, so you are familiar with a situation where there has been a localized emergency but the rule of law is still in place and the ball has not dropped.
No, the police were mainly occupied with keeping people alive and not every little incident. It is hard to call the police when the phone systems are down also.

Quote:
People may end up on foot for a lot of reasons other than a WROL or Ball Drop scenario including car problems fuel shortage and traffic jams due to fuel shortage accidents etc.
Most would not abandon their vehicle in that scenario, some might. It still goes back to my point above, why would they walk back when the infrastructure is still in place?

Quote:
Even in an actual ball drop scenario, let's use Lucifer's Hammer as an easy example, WROL will likely not occur for several days to several weeks. People will have to get hungry and give up on FEMA before they are willing to just commit capital crimes at random.

Of course I could be wrong, but the best I can do is try to understand the events of the past and make sound decisions.
It seems a lot faster when you are living it. Some people just like to watch tings burn and take any advantage to hurt people too. Some like the 'chaos' caused by natural/man-made disasters.

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When I'm in shape I can do that pace with about half my body weight, so close to seventy pounds total. I'll need about two gallons of water per day but, depending on my route can supplement with filtration so let's say 24 lbs of water. My pack spare boots knife shelter 72 hours of calories etc is probably going to bring that total up to about 45 lbs. That leaves 20 lbs absolute max for a rifle pistol and ammo. My rifle and pistol are about 11 of that, leaving 9 lbs for ammo.
Have you tried it yet?

Quote:
Ammo is going to run about 15 per pound so I'm looking at 135 rounds. I'll probably divide that along the lines of 80 .44Mag and 55 .30WCF.
https://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=159381

Quote:
That's basically the way I look at it, and those weights are WAY high for totals! Most recommend a bag weight of 25% of body weight so the 135 rounds is optimistic.
You are looking at a 70lb bag? How far have you hiked with that bag? That is not a minuscule amount of weight, especially over days of travel.

Quote:
If I run into a SEAL team that wants to take my stuff I'll be out of luck. So it goes.
I got a feeling you are not going to be here long with comments like that.

Learn from those who have been in these situations, I am FAR from the only one here. Do not be condescending or childish, as it ruins your point.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:12 PM
bighanded bighanded is online now
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a "few" years back..full battle rattle was fine...

now in my old age..my BOB basically has been downsized to my get home bag and I keep that well under 15lbs.
and depending on the scenario...some of that can be dumped.

the ammo that does live in that bag:

(4) spare 6rd mags for my daily carry colt 380
(2) spare mags for the kimber 3inch ultra 1911 that lives in that bag.


that's it.

if i'm actually bugging out, then my AR has it's own bag with 5 pouch slots for spare mags..so i'm still not running more than about 100rds.
I also have a seperate pistol battle bag if I feel the situation calls for more gun fighting...that bag has a full sized 1911, (6) sparee 10rd extrended mags and (8) 8rd std mags.

this assumes i'm on foot, or on motorbike or have had to really scramble out the drive in the truck.

if I've got even a few minutes..then there are spare preloaded mags for the rifle that triple that ammo supply.

If I've got time to hitch to the camper..then there are a couple cans stored in it.

as a get home bag..assuming I'm at work in the city and needing to just get out of town..then i'm just looking at my carry gun, bag gun, and a 12ga that's got 6 on board and 12 more in estac cards for reciever mount.

again..not a lot of ammo..maybe enough to keep folks from taking my water, food, medical...and enough to help clear the road to get home.

definitely not packing for war...cause i'm pretty much too dang old to wage one anyway.
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:08 PM
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I think in the current world we live in being as grey and inconspicuous as possible is the best mode of operation during any kind of SHTF, disaster etc..

I just don't understand this need for keeping an AR or an AK with 100s of rounds in your vehicle? You need to keep things like MREs, first aid, water and a GHB and be willing to triage things that you don't really need to get home on should you ever need to ditch your vehicle and go on foot.
Last year I did an experiment, I packed up a 3 day assault pack with the kitchen sink.
I mean, every last possible survival item I could flippin think of and weighed it at 54 or 58lbs. I'm old and my memory is goin to hell.. As a boot I could hump 85 all damn day double time. Well, I was 43 then, old average shape at the time and I decided to put my money where my mouth was. I set out on a hot humid 94 degree Kentucky summer day and decided to ruck this at 4.4mph thru the Kentucky hills and ridges to to simulate my 29 mile hump home should I have to abandon my car and walk to the house.
Well, less than 5 miles in I fell the eff out. I mean, black out delirious, lost my bearing don't know where the hell I am fall out.. I literally puked so much and so hard I thought I was gonna vomit up my butthole.. It was bad! Took me 45 minutes to regain my bearing and get myself off of that ridge but I learned a ton from that little mission..
I have since started doing a lot more cardio and leg training and better my fitness level by double..
I also learned that the less you carry, the faster you move and less you have to triage should you need to become mobile on foot.
My 200rnds are 200rnds of 9mm, and XDm 3.8 and 4 mags.
I carry a bic, a ferro rod and waterproof matches, a small first aid kit, a flashlight with spare batteries, a space blanket an ESEE 4 and a Sawyers Filter, Cammenge compass, binoculars and topo maps from my work to my house and paracord. That's my GHB..
Where I work has free water and free snacks and I'll fill up on my way out the door if need be.
Not trying to derail the thread, I was just making a point about weight..
All weight is a hindrance, especially a crap ton of ammo when you don't need it if you learn how to be grey..
Don't be a target
Avoid people
Move away from the herd and plan long ways to your objective if need be.
Be the grey man, the one no one pays attention to..
To each his own but I'm not gonna put myself in danger if I have a way around it and I sure as hell ain't gonna go out with my battle rattle until it's all fallen apart and it can't be saved..
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:10 PM
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To each his own but I'm not gonna put myself in danger if I have a way around it and I sure as hell ain't gonna go out with my battle rattle until it's all fallen apart and it can't be saved..
I don't think the thought process is to intentionally put oneself in danger, but have the means of removing yourself from the danger or removing the danger.
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:24 PM
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I don't think the thought process is to intentionally put oneself in danger, but have the means of removing yourself from the danger or removing the danger.
I think for most of us that's the mindset of self preservation and I have no issue with that mindset.
Some of these guys on here are just itchin for a firefight though.
There is a fine line in SHTF, until it all falls you're still under Rule of Law, maybe even Martial Law then that's a whole other set of problems..
Even if it's looking bad like there is no turning back the rules of society will still be enforced. I'm just saying that being a little discrete is a good thing..
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:31 PM
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I think for most of us that's the mindset of self preservation and I have no issue with that mindset.
After a few experiences my view changed. Not wanting a firefight, but knowing how fast the 'stupid' comes out of people when there is some stress on top

Quote:
Some of these guys on here are just itchin for a firefight though.
Don't make assumptions.
People get 'stupid' real fast.

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There is a fine line in SHTF, until it all falls you're still under Rule of Law, maybe even Martial Law then that's a whole other set of problems..
Even if it's looking bad like there is no turning back the rules of society will still be enforced. I'm just saying that being a little discrete is a good thing..
WROL typically happens after any major disaster. Emergency services are overwhelmed by life & death emergencies and are NOT going to respond to a burglary call, they do not have the manpower.
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Old 03-07-2016, 03:40 PM
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I strongly suspect that the only ones here itching to be in a firefight are those who have never been in a firefight. That's probably going to get knocked right out of them if they ever have to engage.

The sane among us don't have to roll in the muck of a pig pen to intuitively know we don't ever want to.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:06 PM
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Must be very nice to know the future.

Anyone got next week's lotto nunbers?

Let me clarify for the incredibly dense:
I have NO INTENTION of even TRYING TO carry all the smmo in the truck, but it's there.

I've been in firefights, don't want to be in another, but I know how it eats ammo.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:30 PM
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I keep 2 loaded mags for my CCW (Polish P-64 in 9x18 Makarov) in my GHB in addition to the 2 mags on my person at all times. I also keep a few 5.56 stripper clips loaded with 9x18 Mak ammo (yes it fits) in my GHB. All in all maybe 30ish rounds..

I also keep a .30cal size USGI ammo box in the trunk of my car with my range ammo and stuff in it, so that could supplement, but I don't include that in my GHB.

In a GH situation like a break down, I doubt that it's going to be "Call of Duty Zombies" through the suburbs of PA. lol. So I don't think 100's of rounds are needed.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:41 PM
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You walk through the suburbs of PA with a GHB when you break down? Personally I just call AAA, or a family member to come pick me up.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Elisavaet View Post
I think you're on the right track and many commentators here have discussed the bug out bag, INCH bag, bug in, bug out location, staging points, etc. What hasn't been discussed that I've read is the skill level with the tool being used. You mention you, "feel one box of ammo and few extra loaded mags for my pistol is enough," but you don't mention what firearm that is for or what your proficiency is with that firearm.

I typically feel very comfortable with fifty rounds of ammunition for a tuned revolver in .357 Magnum, .45 Colt, or .44 Magnum. In fact, for a bug out bag alone I feel like this is probably excessive. I will typically have more in my car, more at home, more at my bug out location, more at staging points on the way out of my work area and more at staging points on the way into my bug out location, but fifty in my back pack is enough.

That said, I have typically carried a tuned revolver that I shoot five hundred to a thousand rounds of ammunition per month in silhouette competition and "for fun" and sometimes in IDPA competition. When shooting for fun and competition I use loads that have similar ballistics to my carry round. In other words I need one round to hit a man sized target at distances in excess of a hundred yards, and that one round is going to be a 125g JHP at 1350fps (505fpe) at a minimum. The .44 Magnum I'm having built now I will probably carry with a 240g JPH at 1250fps (833fpe).

If you carry a .38 Special snubnose loaded with 158g JHP at 850fps (253fpe) that you practice with at fifteen yards or less, your requirements will be significantly different than mine. While many disagree with me based on the posts I read here, I am of the opinion that it is the rounds that hit the target that are important.

You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

There certainly is a valid use for volume of fire. Military tactics, doctrine, and engagement have proven this time and again. However, as many have said on this thread and others, in bugging out the intention is to avoid conflict rather than engage in it. Further, while volume and sustained fire may be appropriate in a firefight such as the battle of La Drang valley, unless you have Huey's bringing in ammo that's not really a sustainable strategy.

My recommendation is that you prioritize water and emergency stores. Practice with your weapon of choice until you feel OVERGUNNED with FEWER rounds. Some people will never get skilled or comfortable enough to hit a man sized target at over a hundred yards. In that case you would probably be better served by something like a take down 10/22 with a few boxes of hot 22lr than with a pistol.

I often read comments along the vein that, "Anything over fifty yards isn't defensive." Careful study of political unrest here and around the world in the past half century proves this to be untrue. I personally want to be able to engage, with reasonable confidence, hostile shooters at distances of up to a city block. I envision (as a very, very bad scenario), being confronted by "bad guys" up close who have a "sniper" on a roof a few buildings down the street. I want to be able to engage both the up close threat and the "sniper" with my primary weapon. I do not feel the need for a double tap to the chest with 240g JHP .44 Magnums at 1250fps. And yes, in almost any environment my handgun IS my primary weapon as it is the only one that I can feel almost certain I will virtually always have with me. IF I have an M1A in my hands of course I will be more than happy to shoot bad guys with it... but my hands may be holding one end of a litter, carrying a child, helping an injured comrade, etc. I will virtually always have my revolver on me.

You can train and improve your skills with your primary weapon. You cannot train hard enough to reduce your reliance (or that of your family and comrades) on water, shelter, medical treatment, etc. Carry the things you cannot train against, train for those things you can. Study and practice to improve your situational awareness and learn to "blend" (gray man) to try and avoid confrontation.

Finally, and I ONLY mention this as a very, very, very worst possible case... If confronted with bad guys you might find that one well placed round to prove that you're not someone to be trifled with might discourage the others.

Namaste
Kate
I agree with the comments and advice. My question is about the sniper you mentioned. How realistic would the prevalence of snipers be in this case? For those of us hunters and target shooters who regularly shoot, would we have to worry about urban snipers? It doesn't seem likely that the urban riffraff has the skill to be a good shot at long ranges. Any thoughts on this aspect?
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:36 PM
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My most likely situation to use a bag is to need to get home from my workplace after something happens and driving isn't an option. That is a distance of about thirty five miles, most of which would be through the Denver metro area. My GHB is mostly taken up by water, a Sawyer water filter, walking shoes, spare socks, a rain poncho, one datex ration bar, a map, a tarp for rough overnight shelter, some paracord, a small flashlight, a lighter and a single extra magazine for my CCW (which is a 12 round capacity pistol). I normally carry one extra magazine for my CCW on me, giving me a grand total of 36 rounds carried. I keep a folding bike in my trunk to expedite my movement and I would not expect the trip to take longer than two days unless it is the dead of winter with snow on the ground. During the winter months I tend to add a bit more to the pack (heavier socks, hat, gloves, etc.)

I am of the opinion that things would not deteriorate fast enough for me to need anything more lethal than what I normally carry. I know which neighborhoods to avoid and unless open battle develops on the streets within an hour or two of the SHTF, I can't see needing even what I currently carry. In an urban situation where RoL hasn't disappeared completely, breaking contact from hostiles is probably best done by beating feet, not by laying down suppression fire. It takes time for an American city to degrade to a Sarajevo or Mogadishu style mess IMO, so I doubt I would have an issue getting home.

A week or two later and it may be a different story, but by then I should be bugged in at home. Any subsequent bug out would be a much heavier move using carts and a lot more firepower/ammunition.
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Old 03-08-2016, 07:10 AM
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You walk through the suburbs of PA with a GHB when you break down? Personally I just call AAA, or a family member to come pick me up.
I used my GHB after a vehicle fire a few years ago. I did not 'hump' it back home, but used the supplies (food, water, poncho) while I waited the eight hours for assistance. I was located somewhat away from everything.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:54 AM
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Some consideration should be given to "philosophy of use" (thank you, Nutnfancy) for some of the things people include in their BOB, GHB, INCH bag, etc. I realize that the title of this thread specifies BOB, but that seems to be a catch-all sort of pack for many folks, so maybe "go bag" is a more appropriate name. In any case, it seems to me that a lot of people envision their BOB being put into service in situations other than a literal bug-out. I have to believe that at least some of this is due to the perception that a bug-out would consist of some mix of combat operation and wilderness hiking/camping trek. Now, it's possible that during the act of bugging out, it's entirely possible that some unavoidable threat presents itself. For dealing with such threats, one would not want to be digging through a fully-stocked pack for mags or ammo. As I see it, that means loaded mags are carried wherever most readily accessible. Food, water and other equipment shouldn't get carried into a combat environment, unless you are forced to fight your way through. That's a good way to have your supplies ruined, even if you survive the fight.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inazone View Post
For dealing with such threats, one would not want to be digging through a fully-stocked pack for mags or ammo..
Wouldn't you want to reload a magazine if you had to spend the ammunition?

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Originally Posted by Inazone View Post
Food, water and other equipment shouldn't get carried into a combat environment, unless you are forced to fight your way through. That's a good way to have your supplies ruined, even if you survive the fight.
What are you supposed to do with it? Dump it?
Most of us cannot predict the future.
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:40 AM
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General Washington General Washington is offline
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Default Ammo in a BOB

My 642 is the gun I always have on me so I keep 50 rounds in my GHB. I double seal them in ziplocks so they can be more easily conformed to the available space and won't get wet if the bag does.

I usually have a speed strip and 10 loose 38s on me and when I have my SIG I always have a spare magazine. I'm just trying to get home so that's about what I keep in there. I'm usually within 5-10 miles.
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