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Old 05-15-2020, 03:21 PM
bighanded bighanded is online now
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Originally Posted by SeaBeeDaddy View Post
Sounds like the right solution.
there ya go...lightweight platform, compact for close quarters, low recoil, and usually decent mag capacity.
I got into a PDW 9mm last year and have never looked back...
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Old 05-18-2020, 06:23 PM
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It could be time to consider something other than a shotgun! I run a retirement home for retired police 870P shotguns and can understand your affinity for them, but it may be time to look at a pistol caliber carbine.

There are several set up with a brace and legally a pistol that might work. A pistol braced AR15 might be another option!

SD
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Toyboy View Post
talk to me about the stoegers if you will, i was wondering about them. I have an 1100 in 20 gauge that I used for quail. I have never been in love with their safety, preferring mossbergs tang mounted safety, but it seems mossbergs semis have more issues than i want to deal with. to be clear, i want no issues, i don't want to buy a gun and then have to work on it.
Well, I'm going to be direct and honest.

First, I'm very experienced with guns and can feel and spot quality or junk easily. The Stoeger M3000 series feels like quality, all around. I had initially never considered them and went to Cabelas looking at the Mossberg 930 with the intent to buy. They didn't have any in stock, but the sales rep showed me a Stoeger. I almost didn't bother, but I took it and was shocked at how light it was and how slick the action was. It felt fantastic.

Started doing research. These have become very highly regarded in 3-gun for their ergonomics, light weight, reliability and slick action and feeding design. I did a lot of reading and watching videos and was convinced. To be blunt, 3-gun folks are doing competitions and relying on reliability, ergos, ease of use, speed, weight, cost, etc. Which are all similarly important for self/home defense. If the 3 gunners are adopting these that says a lot.
Likewise, I did more looking into the Mossberg and abandoned it for several reasons that I cannot recall.

I found a good deal on a Stoeger M3000 and got it. I really really like it. In full disclosure I have not had the time or location right now to fire it, so I can only speak to the overall first impressions. I liked it so much than when I saw 2 different ones on the local classifieds I bought both. I now have 3! A home defense tactical, a 3-gun design, and a turkey/hunting gun with camo pattern. ALL of them have excellent fit and finish, triggers, actions, etc.

While I haven't fired any of them yet, I can highly recommend them as I am going to assume they function as designed, given the widespread 3-gun adoption.

You owe it to yourself to go at least check 'em out, read up on them, watch some videos, and entertain it as an option. If mine are reliable they would replace or stand next to my 1100s, probably. But the safety is the same as the 1100 cross bolt. You can get an enlarged button, which 3-gunners have adopted for speed/ease of use.

Good luck.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:07 AM
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Thanks to all for the answers. Stoeger is a wholly owned subsidiary of Benelli, who in turn is owned by beretta, so i will take a look. Ill also reconsider the carbine. who knows, I may get both, depending on what business looks like this summer.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:22 AM
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If you want a semi-auto shotgun, the two best shotguns to use are either the new Browning Auto 5 or the Benelli SBE. Both are recoil operated, not gas operated. I have a Benelli SBE, the best shotgun I have ever owned, and I have owned Mossburgs, Remingtons, Various Brownings, and Beretta's. The Benelli is the cleanest operating, no tools complete takedown to the firing pin. Very fast shooter. I shoot everything from 2-3/4" #8 shot light loads to 3-1/2" magnum goose loads. It will digest anything without a hickup.

Gas operated shotguns are dirty and get dirty with use. Have to clean after every use, otherwise they may jamb.

Benelli does need to break in using heavy loads to get the two recoil springs working to eject the light loads. Keep the springs oiled when you do cleaning. Only a little burned power particles in the barrel that will need cleaning after a round of sporting clays. It really doesn't have to be cleaned.

For defense, they make extended magazines and shorter barrels. It does have to keep it's stock as one of the recoil springs is in the stock.

I like the rounded receiver of the Benelli better than the Browning A-5. I am more accurate in clay shooting. I tend to shoot low with the Browning.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:21 AM
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Vepr 12 would be a good choice. You will pay a bit for them given now more are imported, but they can't be beat for self defense. Ultra reliable and will shoot anything.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:26 AM
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I used a Beretta 1201 FP on a shotgun course and it performed without flaw on a variety of ammo to include slug, birdshot and o-o buck. I fired approx. 300 rounds in the course. It was very light but had a great feel. Only complaint is the thin cocking handle. I heard there is a thicker one somewhere.

I'm not aware of any design flaws but I'm looking.

My instructor was the Pierce Co chief firearms trainer and his shotgun of choice he used on the job was a Benelli Super 90, one he used quite a lot with slugs and demonstrated during the course shooting from a distance.
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Old 05-19-2020, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 9th Company View Post
I used a Beretta 1201 FP on a shotgun course and it performed without flaw on a variety of ammo to include slug, birdshot and o-o buck. I fired approx. 300 rounds in the course. It was very light but had a great feel. Only complaint is the thin cocking handle. I heard there is a thicker one somewhere.

I'm not aware of any design flaws but I'm looking.

My instructor was the Pierce Co chief firearms trainer and his shotgun of choice he used on the job was a Benelli Super 90, one he used quite a lot with slugs and demonstrated during the course shooting from a distance.
Well known and not hard to find. Two issues with the Beretta 1201.

1. Cost and availability. They are out of production. Good luck finding one and why bother at the same price as better alternatives?

2. A fatal design flaw that can lock up the gun if you touch the gun wrong. Yes, you can buy and install another part to aid in preventing this absurdly stupid design flaw. It's unreal a combat shotgun would have this idiot button.
https://youtu.be/fBmuPQGX1vg?t=390

I'd only consider one for dirt cheap, AND I'd immediately install that aftermarket part to prevent the gun seizing up during use. But folks command a LOT of money for these Berettas so that's not likely to occur.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Well known and not hard to find. Two issues with the Beretta 1201.
I'm not seeing any significant problems, but I'm not looking too hard either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
1. Cost and availability. They are out of production. Good luck finding one and why bother at the same price as better alternatives?
True and 20 years of of time. But some agencies used them too and you can get a used one from one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
2. A fatal design flaw that can lock up the gun if you touch the gun wrong. Yes, you can buy and install another part to aid in preventing this absurdly stupid design flaw. It's unreal a combat shotgun would have this idiot button.
https://youtu.be/fBmuPQGX1vg?t=390
That's for the 1301, not 1201. Not the same.

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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
I'd only consider one for dirt cheap, AND I'd immediately install that aftermarket part to prevent the gun seizing up during use. But folks command a LOT of money for these Berettas so that's not likely to occur.
That's why you keep looking and know what to look for.

What I really want is a magazine extension.
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:40 PM
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My mistake. Sorry about any confusion. Hard to keep track of it when companies keep introducing and quickly dropping product lines.

Give me an 1100. Been around for decades, 1963 to present day.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:49 AM
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I like the Remington 1100 idea, but when I go on gunbroker, all I see are mostly non 12 ga., long barreled shotguns. I don't see, although I could be missing, a home defense Remington 1100. But the other shotguns noted have home defense options, so there is choice in the matter. In addition to the newer magazine fed ones on the market.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyboy View Post
looking for opinions. here is the situation:

I keep a Remington 870 in the downstairs of my home, in a locker for quick deployment should i need or desire something other than a handgun. Its a police trade in and it has served well for a decade and a half.

my last trip with it to the range I noticed I was not working the slide to my satisfaction. Some minimal loss of strength in my hands and pain, quite frankly, was inhibiting my performance.

I think it is time for it to travel to my safe and be replaced by a semi. So, opinions on a semi for home defense. I have been considering:

Beretta 1201 FP or Mossberg 930 SPX

however, i am open to considering anything of quality. I really don't want to drop a grand, and since it serves a support purposes, i am always thrilled by getting more performance for less money. But, I am willing to spend what is needed as I expect it to serve this purpose for the rest of my life.

so, any and all opinions are welcome
The Winchester SX2, FN SLP, and Browning Silver are all based on the same action. Being gas guns, they shoot softer than the Intertia variety of semi auto shotgun as well.

find whichever one of those you can with the right barrel and price for you and I'm sure you'll be happy. Also would second the notion of an older Remington 1100. Bulletproof and about as soft as a shotgun can shoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9th Company View Post
I like the Remington 1100 idea, but when I go on gunbroker, all I see are mostly non 12 ga., long barreled shotguns. I don't see, although I could be missing, a home defense Remington 1100. But the other shotguns noted have home defense options, so there is choice in the matter. In addition to the newer magazine fed ones on the market.
For an HD semi auto I definitely wouldn't shake my head at a 20g. At distances that range from "across the room" to "down the hallway" I don't think emptying a 5 shell tube of 12g makes anyone more deader than emptying the same of 20g. I worked ambulances for a hot minute and anecdotally I didn't find much of a difference in level of "killed" a person got from those two different gauges.

It matters a lot for hunting birds. I think it's a lot less critical for two legged longpig.
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Old 05-21-2020, 07:51 AM
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The Beretta 1301 was set up with “The Stupid Button” for the game guys! They wanted both markets, but they missed the mark with the self defense/police market because of this button!

Fortunately it’s a quick and easy fix and several folks make various options to fix it. I think mine was a $20-$25 & 5 minutes fix that seems to have resolved this shortfall completely!

SD
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Old 05-31-2020, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Looks very, VERY interesting.

And contrary to some macho inclinations, 9mm, especially in that vehicle, is more than adequate for home and personal defense.
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:21 PM
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circling back to this thread.
my mossberg 930 left today. Sold to a fella who particularly wanted one.

I was glad to see it go to a new home...it had been a struggle gun for me to make it truly reliable..and , yes, I sold him a reliable gun.

At least as far as a gas gun goes. I made sure he understood the need to keep the system clean, and I broke it down to show him the upgraded piston spacer sleeve etc and what I had /have to do to make the gun run light loads. then I demonstrated that it does in fact eat buck/slug/and#8 birdshot and it functioned perfectly with all loads...so he was happy to have it.

If I replace the platform with another autoloader, it will be a recoil platform, NOT another gas system.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:45 AM
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I have an Escort (made by Hatsan in Turkey) 12G semi-auto that has been flawless. It handles everything from the Walmart bulk packs of Winchester birdshot to buck and slugs.

It is a gas gun and I am not diligent about cleaning but it chugs along.

A friend once told me I had 5 hulls in the air during rapid fire.


I also have their 20G model. However that one has a slight issue in that every so often the lifter won't present the next shell properly and it will catch on the bottom of the chamber. A slight pull back on the charging handle lets it pop into place and load. I don't shoot it much and so haven't been annoyed enough to look into it further.


I second that for home defense a 20G will be fine and will add that you should look for a youth model as it gives a more compact package.
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:12 PM
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As an alternative may i humbly suggest a workout program. Mid 50s here, white collar job, so i started one last year with no weights, all bands. Look on the 'tube for reference.

I was surprised that the things that i bit$hed about got easy.
Feel pretty good like back in my early 40s good. See-it move-it mentality now, and the wife likes it.

Plus the world we live in nowadays suggests not being seen as old and feeble would be a good thing.
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Old 07-17-2020, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
AK47.

Reliable.- Check
Accurate 0-100 yards - check
29 follow up shots - check
SHort barrel - check.
Cheap - check.
Will it deter someone that gets hit? - check.
Accurate head shot at 50 ft - check.
Overpenetration? Don't care. Everything behind the target is trees, wild pigs and gators.

Shotgun. - Misfires, short shucks, hard recoil, only a few shots, cant hit just one head sized target at 50 ft without blowing away bystanders.

Anyway, that's my reasoning. Everyone has a different situation.

fair enough... I live in a small town, i am thinking 10 yards max engagement, perhaps 20. if i lived in a rural area, it would be a different issue. I had considered a pistol caliber carbine,( and that is till an outside possibility) but all things considered ill go with a shotgun.
Have you considered and ar / ak pattern pistol with a brace ?

Shorter barrel , longer range , less recoil , just as deadly. And more reliable than almost any shotgun.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyboy View Post
looking for opinions. here is the situation:

I keep a Remington 870 in the downstairs of my home, in a locker for quick deployment should i need or desire something other than a handgun. Its a police trade in and it has served well for a decade and a half.

my last trip with it to the range I noticed I was not working the slide to my satisfaction. Some minimal loss of strength in my hands and pain, quite frankly, was inhibiting my performance.

I think it is time for it to travel to my safe and be replaced by a semi. So, opinions on a semi for home defense. I have been considering:

Beretta 1201 FP or Mossberg 930 SPX

however, i am open to considering anything of quality. I really don't want to drop a grand, and since it serves a support purposes, i am always thrilled by getting more performance for less money. But, I am willing to spend what is needed as I expect it to serve this purpose for the rest of my life.

so, any and all opinions are welcome
JMO, the 870 - what you have on hand will fit a majority of the situations you will ever encounter. It is up to you if you want to "upgrade" that is your choice.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
AK47.

Reliable.- Check
Accurate 0-10 yards - but very little beyond that
29 follow up shots - check
Short barrel - check.
Cheap - check.
Will it deter someone that gets hit? - check.
Accurate head shot at 50 ft - I'll believe it when I see it.

Shotgun. - Misfires, short shucks, hard recoil, only a few shots, cant hit just one head sized target at 50 ft without blowing away bystanders.
No offense intended: I used AK-47's in Vietnam, and they're just not designed for the accuracy of an M-16. Of course, that was always the M-16's weakness: it's accurate at 300 feet, but the vast majority of firefights happen at less than 40 feet, and if you didn't keep them white-glove clean, they would jam.

As to shotguns: do any of them still have the "short shuck" problem? I thought they fixed that way back when.
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