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Old 07-29-2017, 01:40 PM
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Default Try to Hit the Bad Guys, not the Hostage



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I’ve been spending a lot of time shooting my rifle recently. However, my pistol (Sig P229 with XS Big Dot sights) finally got a little love yesterday.

I started at 3 – 4 yds. The red silhouette (hostage) on the target is 12.25” wide by 16” tall; the black silhouettes (bad guys) are only 2.25” wide on either side. I consider it a 2/3-size target. I was standing and shooting off-hand, with a two-handed grip. It took me three shots each before I finally hit the bad guys. And yeah, I hit the hostage once, and grazed him with a second shot, before hitting the bad guy on the right.


On my second attempt, I got the bad guy on the left with my first shot. However, I still hit the hostage (twice) before finally hitting the bad guy on the right. On my third attempt, I got both bad guys with one shot each.


Next, I moved the target out to about 7 -8 yds. It took me three shots to hit the bad guy on the left, but I got the bad guy on the left with only one shot.


And then, I moved the target out to 15 yds. This time I was actually aiming at the red silhouette.
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Old 07-29-2017, 01:45 PM
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Now you know why hostage rescue is so challenging! Any why if you are a hostage or a rescuer you do not want the tool of choice for the good guys to be an AK!
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Old 07-29-2017, 01:49 PM
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You seem to be pulling everything left, no matter which side you are trying to "miss". Adjust your sights, or change your grip/trigger squeeze so the bullet goes where you are aiming.
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Old 07-29-2017, 01:50 PM
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First, kudos for posting an imperfect target in public. Not everyone is confident enough to do that.

But why would you shoot two-handed offhand? I can't think of a situation where my strong hand isn't good enough to shoot normally but still good enough to use for a two-handed offhand trip. My support hand is just as important to a two-handed grip as my firing hand.
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Old 07-29-2017, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff View Post
First, kudos for posting an imperfect target in public. Not everyone is confident enough to do that.

But why would you shoot two-handed offhand? I can't think of a situation where my strong hand isn't good enough to shoot normally but still good enough to use for a two-handed offhand trip. My support hand is just as important to a two-handed grip as my firing hand.
Offhand means unsupported, not weak hand. At least, it does here. So two handed offhand is the typical standing strong hand shooting technique used by most people.
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Old 07-29-2017, 02:56 PM
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Interesting. Is that a regional thing? I've never heard offhand equated with unsupported. (Not saying you're wrong...just trying to understand it.)
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Old 07-29-2017, 03:18 PM
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Here, unsupported means no mechanical aids (rests, bags, fence-posts, walls, etc), just the human holding the gun.
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Old 07-29-2017, 03:38 PM
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"Offhand" is a term usually referring to the standing rifle position. Not that it cant apply to other things.

"Weak hand" is whats usually referred to when shooting with the non dominant hand. I guess you could call it the off hand, and maybe it is a regional thing.


Keep at it rjinga, youre doing good. The more you practice, the easier it gets.
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Old 07-29-2017, 04:56 PM
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Let me try to clarify my previous post: I was standing, and not leaning or resting on anything for additional support. I had my firearm in my strong (right) hand, and I had my weak (left) hand around my strong hand and the grip as well.
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Old 07-29-2017, 06:33 PM
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HR is one of the most challenging (and nerve-wracking) disciplines out there. Few teams actually have it as a real capability, although a ton of them train for it, nominally. It's obscenely training and manpower intensive. I'm not sure what kind of time restraints you were putting on yourself. To get a true "realistic" taste of it, make those shots from the holster, in under 1.5 seconds. That's not even the toughest standard I have seen, just a middle ground

Like someone posted Above, kudos for posting those targets. At the ranges you are talking about (inside 10 yds) you should be focused on a tight grip, and a straight trigger pull. Master those, and the other stuff doesn't really matter, inside 10 yds.
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Old 07-29-2017, 07:20 PM
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Put one of those red dots in the middle of a sheet of printer paper. Work a half a mag at a time thru until ya just eat it up. Then go weak handed an get as good as possible that way. Get accurate then speed of draw. You can put it all together after getting accurate and a safe clean draw. I'm no big time shooter but that is what I work on when I shoot handguns. Ya never know if you will be able to use both hands or strong hand even. Start off with a .22lr if you have never shot weak handed.
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Old 07-30-2017, 05:49 AM
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I find if you take out the hostage first, the bad guys become much larger targets. Seriously though, if what you stated is true and you haven't been showing your Sig (or any other pistol) any love for a while, then its probably just rust. Shooting is a diminishing skill if not practiced regularly, no matter how good you are. Have you used these targets before, or is this the first time you've used them? If you have, how did you do before.
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Old 07-30-2017, 06:14 AM
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On your target the throat/neck region seems like it presents the smallest hostage area of error while presenting the largest bad guy vital exposed area. The area below the brain and eyes I would think, are less of a one shot stopper due to the sinus cavities acting like a shock absorber for the hydrostatic expansion. Not that I would like to get shot in the face. but there is a lot of guys who have survived being shot in the face and stayed in the fight.I would draw a general outline of the brain profile from the front view, now see how little vital area brains are exposed?
A bullet to the cervical spine, jugular vein or carotid artery will certainly make the bad guys days a lot shorter. if you do not have a clear brain shot. And the blood pouring or spurting out of a neck wound definitely has a certain degree of psychological effect on everyone in the general area.
There are a lot of things going on in the neck, and the hydroshock into the brain, in my opinion, would incapacitate at least temporarily at most permanently
Just saying
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Old 07-30-2017, 06:46 AM
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in mother russia they shoot hostage first
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Old 07-30-2017, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Andy1966 View Post
On your target the throat/neck region seems like it presents the smallest hostage area of error while presenting the largest bad guy vital exposed area. The area below the brain and eyes I would think, are less of a one shot stopper due to the sinus cavities acting like a shock absorber for the hydrostatic expansion. Not that I would like to get shot in the face. but there is a lot of guys who have survived being shot in the face and stayed in the fight.I would draw a general outline of the brain profile from the front view, now see how little vital area brains are exposed?
A bullet to the cervical spine, jugular vein or carotid artery will certainly make the bad guys days a lot shorter. if you do not have a clear brain shot. And the blood pouring or spurting out of a neck wound definitely has a certain degree of psychological effect on everyone in the general area.
There are a lot of things going on in the neck, and the hydroshock into the brain, in my opinion, would incapacitate at least temporarily at most permanently
Just saying
This is all pretty much wrong. CNS hits are the only reliable one-shot stops. Jugular, carotid, and neck are not part of the CNS. Spine shots might work. They may kill, or paralyze. They very well may not. Do a search of "T-zone Target" or "CNS Target" and you'll find good diagrams of where to aim.

I've seen a lot of people shot. Well over 800. Of those, at least 100 took at least one round in the head. None that took a solid shot to the T-zone lived, or were even alive or twitching when we got there. Several of the out-of-tzone shootees lived, but that could be because many of the hits were peripheral hits that were through and through (into the mouth, out the cheek; into the cheek, out the eye; cheek to cheek; chin to neck; etc).

The majority of people I have seen shot in the neck have survived, including one this week, who took a through and through to the face, and a shot that lodged in his spinal column in his neck. He never lost conciousness, and was talking/moving the entire time he was transported, and for the entire time I babysat him at the hospital.
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Old 07-30-2017, 08:51 AM
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I think it was Paris Theodore who first started advocating the CNS "instant kill" head shots back in the late 70's, early 80's with his "Quell System".

Suarez today seems to be carrying that torch and is a big advocator of them.

Makes sense too, if youre fairly close and armed with a pistol, why waste time on COM when a burst center of face, or anywhere along that invisible line (basically a line from one ear canal though the bottom of nose/upper lip to ear canal) that bisects the nerve bundle/spinal column at the base of the skull will shut things down pretty much instantly.

If youre unfamiliar with Theodore and his Quell system, its an interesting read, and the technique, while a bit odd until you get it down and understand it, does, in fact, work pretty much as advertised. Its just kind of limiting for most types of shooting. Still, once youve figured it out, it is another tool in the box so to speak.
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Old 07-30-2017, 08:52 PM
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I took a firearms class - can't recall if it was last year or earlier this year - but it was called the "Stress Class". The point was to get your heart way up into the cardio zone and then make you shoot drills - primarily carbine with some pistol transitions. The goal being that in an actual shooting the adrenaline will send your heart rate and breathing way up and so this was an attempt to evaluate and improve how you shoot under stress.

We did tire flips, railroad tie carries, obstacle course runs, etc. One exercise had us stand on a 2' x 2' mat and shoot over, under and around barricades all while 3 instructors screamed at you from 6" range and hit you with "pool noodles". Often they would f*ck with your gear, like turning optics off, unhooking your sling, or stealing your pistol. Another required 20 kettle bell swings, shoot, advance and do 20 more, shoot, swap kettle bells with your partner, advance and do 20 swings, shoot, advance and do 20 more, and shoot again. One was 35 lbs, the other was 60. That sucked a lot.




Any how, to your point about shooting around hostages, almost every course of fire included targets behind cover and/or targets behind hostages. Did I mention that every bad guy miss required 10 pushups, and every hostage hit required a 10 lb weight to be hung around your neck to be carried all day? I carried 20 lbs most of the day, but only did an extra 50-60 pushups. Some guys were doing 50-80 per exercise because they were so fatigued and shaking.

Funny story, but the bottom line is that everyone should learn to push their limits and their skills in "as close to real life" situations as possible. Shooting at static paper in a sterile environment while standing still teaches you virtually nothing but basic weapon manipulation.
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:32 PM
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Default Use the same targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjinga View Post
I’ve been spending a lot of time shooting my rifle recently. However, my pistol (Sig P229 with XS Big Dot sights) finally got a little love yesterday.

I started at 3 – 4 yds. The red silhouette (hostage) on the target is 12.25” wide by 16” tall; the black silhouettes (bad guys) are only 2.25” wide on either side. I consider it a 2/3-size target. I was standing and shooting off-hand, with a two-handed grip. It took me three shots each before I finally hit the bad guys. And yeah, I hit the hostage once, and grazed him with a second shot, before hitting the bad guy on the right.


On my second attempt, I got the bad guy on the left with my first shot. However, I still hit the hostage (twice) before finally hitting the bad guy on the right. On my third attempt, I got both bad guys with one shot each.


Next, I moved the target out to about 7 -8 yds. It took me three shots to hit the bad guy on the left, but I got the bad guy on the left with only one shot.


And then, I moved the target out to 15 yds. This time I was actually aiming at the red silhouette.

I am sorry that I did not take pic's of the same targets that I use VERY OFTEN.

I try to shoot at my worst imagined scenario,hostage and not a really good shot.

I have only missed when I hurried the shot,and I generally use a Glock in .40S&W [ and one in 9mm].

The harder AND cheaper way to practice that really hard shot is,use playing cards in place of the heads.

Aim small,hit small.

Again,very brave of you to show that and keep working at it.

Also,I suggest trying different loads.
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gman4q2 View Post
Have you used these targets before, or is this the first time you've used them? If you have, how did you do before.
This was the first time shooting this target with my pistol.
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:08 AM
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Just like on Star Trek. The guy in the red shirt is toast.
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