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Old 01-19-2020, 10:09 AM
Rural Buckeye Guy Rural Buckeye Guy is offline
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Shotgund are great for crowds, especially crowds flinging molotovs or rush forward. They can be aimrd to riccochet balls off the pavement through that crowd, where the thicker the carpet of thrashing, screaming recipients the better for you. In thier unlikely use at a road block, 00 buck can do a number on an engine or tires that an AR can hope to match. The difference between that 12 guage in the closet and the combag shotgun is the size of the shot and the willingness to use it.
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Old 01-19-2020, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrioticAmerican View Post
Armored enemy. Slugs at 1800 fps kill even if they don't penetrate.
A few things to consider first.......

1. Remington 12ga high velocity slugs did not penetrate any OITV vests we tested it , and they did achieve 1800fps in velocity at the muzzle. Vests were placed at 10feet from firing line using a target apprised of model clay. The " dent" left in the clay underneath the vests did not equate to what I refer to as adequate/ consistent terminal effect. ( Feel free to conduct your own evaluations)

Note: At 50 yards, this same slug dropped to 1215 fps in velocity

Comparison :
7.62x39mm 122gr " Lousy but cheap Tula fmj fired from a 10.5in bbl went right thru it with significant damage to the clay underneath. .....as did 300 blackout using 147gr M80 ball via reloaded ammunition thru a 7.5in bbl. The same bullet launched from a 308 case thru an 18.5in bbl went thru 4 vests at 400 yards.

Note: These same slugs also produce a considerable amount of felt recoil compared to 7.62x51mm, and especially 7.62x39mm. ( An important factor when considering multiple moving targets that are not only armored, but also armed.) Add to this the limited capacity vs DBM rifles/ carbines/ SBRs, and make your own conclusions as to the more versatile weapon in terms of actual combat operations ( Not simply deployed to a combat zone), where direct fire engagements are a reality.

2. Blunt force trauma is not remotely close to consistent incapacitation , let alone a sure thing concerning " kills ". ( See number 1 above) Documented accounts have shown that armored folks can still fight even after being hit with 12ga slugs inside of 10 feet.

3. We ended up forming the same conclusions as the folks who conducted similar tests did via below link. ....

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...el-iiia-armor/

A decent example that shows 9mm, 40snw, 45acp, 12ga 00buck/ slug, 5.56mm and 7.62x39mm. ( Pistols, shotguns, and rifles)

As you can see in thier photos, 5.56mm and 7.62x39mm fired from an AR15 and AK, both exhibited extensive damage to thier targets because both penetrated the Level 3a soft armor being utilized.

4. Evaluations conducted on targets behind/ inside of vehicles show that 7.62x39mm fired from 10.5in to 16in bbls and 7.62x51mm fired from 18.5in bbls are more effective than 12ga buckshot by a considerable margin using a " triggerline" technique via a TCP with distances of 50, 75, 100, 150, and 200 yards. The good news for 12ga slugs = they showed less deviation and decent penetration at distances out to 50 yards, Bad news = considerable drop in consistent effect after 50 yards.
Conclusions: 7.62x39mm and especially 7.62x51mm are both much higher on the consistent effects totem pole vs 12ga buck or slugs if proper stand off via trigger line at an actual combat related checkpoint is utilized. ( One of my jobs in the Infantry...lol)

5. Utilizing a shotgun along with multiple rifles within a team or group was another topic. This also produces good points and bad. On one hand, the point was brought up about the " team" being more versatile because both are being used within said group. On the flip side, that shotgun toting team mate still is armed with a limited use weapon. Thus. .....the team as a whole is also limited. ( Niche scenarios = limitation, and only give strength to the rifle / carbine/ SBR for entire team) Sport hunting birds in flight, competition ( skeet shooting), and riot control aside .

Note: The above is a bit different in nature compared to a police type checkpoint. ( This thread pertains to shotguns for use in combat. A risk assessment conducted by law enforcement most likely views threats such as VBIED, RPG, grenades, etc.....as less likely than we do.) It is interesting to compare notes with members here that are expierienced law enforcement such as Disturbed70 however.


Note: Received a pm here from another member asking me if a shotgun would be valuable if utilized to create loop holes thru walls of buildings. My response : If the shotgun can generate a sufficient loop hole thru wall construction in your example, then rifle fire will also penetrate the same wall at considerable distance. In short, you have concealment and not cover unless you fortify said loop hole position by additional means, such as sandbags.
( We went into much more detail concerning this pm btw. )

Several good uses for a shotgun have been mentioned here. Everything from riot control to sport hunting birds while in flight, to exhibition/ competitive skeet shooting. None really pertain to this thread however.




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Old 01-20-2020, 07:49 PM
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I don’t think that we should rule out combat scatterguns just because they aren’t as effective against armor.

I think the combat scenario many could see would mostly be against enemy without armor. In that case, the 12g would be incredibly versatile. More versatile than a well built carbine? Maybe not, but a worthy tool for many scenarios.

Having the ability to carry two types of ammo on the gun is a benefit (00buck and slugs).

BUT using proper rounds is crucial to a shotguns success. Green box 00 from Remington won’t cut it. Terrible at anything over 10 yards.

I only shoot three types in my shotgun. Only Federal, 2-3/4 00 high velocity tactical w/ flight control wads, 2-3/4 00 low recoil tactical w/ flight control wads, and 2-3/4 High velocity tactical truball slugs.

Those rounds are very effective at range, I consistently shoot the full power 00 buck out to 25 yards with no pellets leaving body. Anything beyond that the truball slugs are good. I shoot out to 100 with high power slugs with accuracy. Flight control wads make all the difference.

Ease of manipulation, malfunction mitigation with pump action reliability, ease of aiming quickly, and versatility make it a solid choice.

I can’t think of a more devastating close range weapon for assaulting a vehicle or boat. Buck v windshield, very effective with 1-2 shots. The right slugs can be used for barrier penetration effectively.
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