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Old 12-05-2019, 07:19 PM
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I wanted to attempt at getting a discussion going mainly to help me understand the how and why leftists think. I see some supporting the 2A seemingly all aspects of it. The question I have and have never been given a straight answer is how can you be a supporter of the 2A when a vast majority of the leftist politicians are trying to get firearms out of America's hands? When I ask these questions in conversation the leftists get upset at me quickly and it doesn't go anywhere.

I would like to avoid the fallback of "Sensible gun control" as that goes nowhere. Anti-gunners often will use it to advance the anti-gun agenda and those of us pro-gun mostly don't want to hear it. Please avoid arguments and stick to open respectful discussion. If you are not an American living here please keep your opinions to yourself or start another thread. I would like to be able for people to ask questions and give what's on their minds why they are a leftist that supports the 2A and why.

If possible I would ask the mods step in here and there if people start getting out of line with each other (Hopefully wouldn't be needed). So if you are willing let's hear from the leftists here in about your thoughts on this please.
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Old 12-05-2019, 07:36 PM
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Your first mistake is believe the libratards think - they "feel". They want to take all the guns because you might do something bad with one, never mind that the gubernments kill more people than anyone else. The short recent list of leftest heroes. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pot, Amein, Mussolini.

Yea Communism will work this time for sure, never mind all the current bankrupt 3rd world ****holes.

You can vote communism/socialism in but you will need to shoot it out.
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Old 12-05-2019, 07:45 PM
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Because most people on the left are hypocrites

They let emotions and knee-jerk reactions rule their lives
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Old 12-05-2019, 07:48 PM
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Modern Liberals, or old style Liberals?

Many modern liberals are big government swamp creatures and power freaks. They like high taxes, big government, intrusive regulations and gun control. They control the Democtatic party and they are about to burn it down.

Old style liberals are very different. They want government smaller and less intrusive. Since the Democratic party has been dominated by Clintonista power freaks, and now Socialists, I'm not sure where the old style liberals hang their hat. Perhaps one or two will stop by.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:08 PM
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`

Any dems/libs I know that claim to be pro 2A are almost always fudds. They are fine (for now) with shotguns (maybe not semi-auto), bolt action rifles & revolvers (if handguns at all), that's usually pretty much it. Most think the 2A is referring to hunting, ya know cause the founding fathers fought for so many years against the deer & ducks.

.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:16 PM
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The liberals to whom I've spoken generally offer one of two perspectives with regard to firearms.

Either they look at crime trends in the US and conclude that, on the whole, guns are responsible for more mayhem, violence, suicides, and accidental deaths than it's worth to allow even responsible gun owners to possess them; (and hence gun ownership by all except police/military should be outlawed);

OR they are willing to concede that the Second Amendment indeed authorizes civilians to own guns, but it says nothing with regard to how those guns are obtained (vis a vis vetting potential gun owners very thoroughly), nor which guns can lawfully be purchased. They point out that US citizens may not own 105mm self-propelled howitzers, Javelin anti-tank missiles, nuclear warheads, or M-19 40mm grenade launchers as evidence that the government already constrains the ownership of weapons of war. Ergo, outlawing AR/AK platforms as similar weapons of war is not an entirely unreasonable extension of constraints already in existence.

(Mind you, this says nothing about the fact that AR/AK platforms are used in less than something like .000000000002 percent of all crimes committed in the US. It simply goes to the matter of whether they ought to be available to Americans or not.)

In general, I must agree with the comments above.

The liberals to whom I have spoken are not, in the main, swayed by any evidence, data, responsible studies, historical examples, or other rational arguments in favor of gun possession by US citizens. Their paradigm is founded predominantly on an idealistic conviction that society would be better off with less violence, and more constraints on who can own guns, and what types of guns they are allowed to own, would lead to a less violent society in the US.

Evidence to the contrary is simply ignored as irrelevant.

At least this has been my experience, in trying to discuss the topic with liberals.

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Old 12-05-2019, 09:38 PM
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Was reading some asshatĎs thing today about how he supports gun ownership, but he's so worked up over the OBVIOUS MASS issues surrounding gun storage, gun purchasing, and gun use; that he sold ALL his guns but one.

Yeah...he sold one AR, one handgun, and kept his low end O/U shotgun. Because if you need more than two barrels, youíre doing it wrong.

I asked if he had ever considered a safe or a trigger lock, and what specifically were his issues with storage, purchasing and usage, but thanked him for his virtue signaling. He got ****y and deleted my comment, claiming I ďattackedĒ him.

Fornicate him and the steed upon which he arrived.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:09 PM
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Liberal like to project their fears and hates on everyone else regardless of what others think.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:09 PM
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I’m a liberal and so is my husband and we both support the 2A. I don’t post about guns on here since I was told that unless I’m willing to always carry I’m not supporting gun rights. We have several guns between the two of us. My husband has hunted since he was a teenager. I think a lot of liberals (and conservatives) are more middle of the road types than extreme either way. That’s why I really don’t like the labels. Usually when I post here I refer to myself as left-leaning unless I’m anticipating being called a libtard and I try to beat them to the punch. I do not support a politician according to their party. I support them according to their policies.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:45 PM
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I think most modern liberals and progressives lean towards subjective reasoning rather than objective reasoning. That would mean that emotion weighs heavily in their decision making. I think modern liberals/progressives have been conditioned to lean that way. Politicians and the media put most of their efforts into eliciting an emotion response from their audience.
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready?mom View Post
I’m a liberal and so is my husband and we both support the 2A. I don’t post about guns on here since I was told that unless I’m willing to always carry I’m not supporting gun rights. We have several guns between the two of us. My husband has hunted since he was a teenager. I think a lot of liberals (and conservatives) are more middle of the road types than extreme either way. That’s why I really don’t like the labels. Usually when I post here I refer to myself as left-leaning unless I’m anticipating being called a libtard and I try to beat them to the punch. I do not support a politician according to their party. I support them according to their policies.
I really appreciate your answer from a liberal perspective and this is what I wish to accomplish with this thread. What I'm really wanting to know is how or why can liberals support their liberal political candidates and party knowing they are going after their firearms or severely restricting them? I don't believe that since you are not willing to carry a firearm on your person all the time you are wrong. It's a personal decision and that's about it on that.
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:44 PM
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they alter the meaning of words to retroactively change existing laws, treaties and contracts. they decree nonsense to be truth, and truth to be nonsense. they say we are deluded.

they are on the other side of a mirror. they think that's the side of those who are right and bright.

the major difference is, when a large event like a July 4th picnic or a "pride parade" occurs, is that we don't have to worry about what is in the secret sauce.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:31 AM
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Well this is crazy! We have a board full of right-wing people who pretend they are pro-2A when liberals are making dumb statements but turn their head and cough, come up with the current talking heads excuse as to why it was ok that:

Trump used an EO to have bumpstocks banned.
Listened to the President sit next to Feinstein and say, "take guns first, due process second".
Support red flag laws.
The GOP with majorities in the House and Senate didn't take up the hearing protection act and didn't take on the national reciprocity.

Let's dig a bit deeper, shall we?

Didn't President Reagan sign the Hughes Amendment into law? Write the letter to beg the Senate to put the "assault weapons" into play?

So, I guess let me turn the question around. Let me ask ANYONE how can you support or continue to support a politician or party that says they are for our rights but aren't? I would like to know how and why you do this?

As for "leftist" getting upset quickly around here and not having a conversation go anywhere...
Every time someone around here disagrees with the right-wing establishment or questions this President they are immediately called a 'libtard, socialist, lib or worse.


There is no sensible gun control, it is an infringement, 4D chess or not.

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Originally Posted by ManyFeathers View Post
Because most people on the left are hypocrites

They let emotions and knee-jerk reactions rule their lives
And only leftists are capable of this? Get real.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:02 AM
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I've thought and wondered about this for more hours than I care to admit.

The end conclusion is that "liberals" are illogical and hypocritical creatures that generally "feel" rather than think, and generally change their position based on what IMMEDIATELY benefits them. And they generally simply lie and move goal posts. And they generally don't have a clue what they are talking about, but speak with such authority. And they ignore factual research and stats. And they are totally ignorant to history, and the abuses of an unchecked government against disarmed citizens.

They are anti-gun for individuals, except themselves since many own guns, or they are protected with fences and armed body guards and armored car transports and layers of security.

They are in favor of only "government and professionals" owning and using guns, until they routinely rail against government (military and police) firearms abuses and shootings.

They only want to ban "this" gun. But that changes with the wind. And moves to the next gun once the first gun is banned. In short, they just want to ban more.

They ignore stats that show gun control doesn't work, except at the extreme ends of the spectrum with total removal of civil rights in totalitarian societies.

I've listened to liberals on TV who cannot identify gun parts correctly. I've read and seen the arrests and convictions of the liberal heroes who are caught and arrested for gun running, like bigtime anti-gun San Fran Senator like Leland Yee. And others. I've argued with liberals who don't have the first clue about guns, parts, laws, ballistics, etc. Not. A. Clue.

And they don't understand or know about history and gun control.

Yet these morons, liars, and hypocrites are all to happy to ban your rights.
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready?mom View Post
Iím a liberal and so is my husband and we both support the 2A. I donít post about guns on here since I was told that unless Iím willing to always carry Iím not supporting gun rights. We have several guns between the two of us. My husband has hunted since he was a teenager. I think a lot of liberals (and conservatives) are more middle of the road types than extreme either way. Thatís why I really donít like the labels. Usually when I post here I refer to myself as left-leaning unless Iím anticipating being called a libtard and I try to beat them to the punch. I do not support a politician according to their party. I support them according to their policies.
Sounds like youíre less liberal and more Democrat..
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:42 AM
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In the old days, there were democrats that that are to the right of current republicans. They wanted to protect SS by balancing the budget, and a few of them would maybe support something like the current background check system.

There were also Republicans like Bush I that supported the AWB I Clinton got over the goal line.

Now we have an entirely different group out there who want you to have nothing; unless you're rich and connected. They are not only saying it out loud but with a bull horn.

50 years ago they would have been shouted down and pelted with rotten fruit in Democrat controlled states.

Here's what Eleanor Roosevelt thought about guns; you should carry one.



I would imagine someone like Mother Jones would not be popular at the rag they sell with her name on it.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:24 AM
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Spent 20 minutes on Thanksgiving explaining to a 34 year old liberal the difference between semi auto and full auto after hearing him rant about "military style assault rifles".

Lesson learned and he thanked me for it. He had never heard the ACTUAL description of what he was so highly critical about. Baby steps......
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zumhug View Post
Well this is crazy! We have a board full of right-wing people who pretend they are pro-2A when liberals are making dumb statements but turn their head and cough, come up with the current talking heads excuse as to why it was ok that:

Trump used an EO to have bumpstocks banned.
Listened to the President sit next to Feinstein and say, "take guns first, due process second".
Support red flag laws.
The GOP with majorities in the House and Senate didn't take up the hearing protection act and didn't take on the national reciprocity.
You are, IMHO, spot on with this comment. From my POV it is emphatically not okay that:
"Trump used an EO to have bumpstocks banned;
Listened to the President sit next to Feinstein and say, "take guns first, due process second";
Support red flag laws - (which are a particular travesty);
The GOP with majorities in the House and Senate didn't take up the hearing protection act and didn't take on the national reciprocity."

While (again for myself) these actions factor into the next election, they will be weighed against the pronouncements of Beto, Warren, Sanders, and Bloomfield regarding 'AR/AK confiscations', 'assault weapons bans', 'red flag laws', and the myriad other anti-gun measures they've promised. We've only to look at Virginia to witness what lays in store for the entire country under any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zumhug
"So, I guess let me turn the question around. Let me ask ANYONE how can you support or continue to support a politician or party that says they are for our rights but aren't? I would like to know how and why you do this?"
It comes down to the lesser of two evils.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zumhug
"As for "leftist" getting upset quickly around here and not having a conversation go anywhere...
Every time someone around here disagrees with the right-wing establishment or questions this President they are immediately called a 'libtard, socialist, lib or worse."
Calling names and ad hominem attacks are counter-productive to pursuading others of the virtues, both obvious and secondary, of any argument. This goes both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zumhug
"There is no sensible gun control, it is an infringement."
This is particularly the case vis a vis recent calls for additional "sensible" gun control. In each and every case, the effectiveness of any such laws depends on a clearly disprovable postulate.

The idea of a 'law' is that is regulates human behavior. In all cases, but particularly with respect to guns, criminals are already proven to be disinclined to obey laws. It is the essence of being criminal.

If gun laws do not regulate criminals' behavior, they are ineffective.

Passing more of them will not increase their effectiveness.

Even advocates of additional gun laws have admitted that the very laws they advocate would not have prevented the mass shootings documented over the past 36 months (for example). Yet despite this ineffectiveness, they advocate for these new laws regardless.

Rather than ascribe malevolence to their behavior, I suspect its out of a deep-rooted motivation to do SOMETHING - ANYTHING to prevent mass shooting events in the future. Even doing something ineffective, they believe, is more virtuous than doing nothing.

And additional laws will ultimately be ineffective, because those who want to use a gun to kill many of their fellow citizens will not be dissuaded by gun laws. If people can buy heroin or meth routinely to feed a daily habit, they will always be able to buy a gun via the same mechanisms. Laws don't prevent human behavior if the humans don't obey laws.

It's even more the case in the matter of holding manufacturers responsible for the behavior of criminals. Manufacturers have no more capability to regulate the behavior of humans than governments.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InOmaha View Post
In the old days, there were democrats that that are to the right of current republicans. They wanted to protect SS by balancing the budget, and a few of them would maybe support something like the current background check system.

There were also Republicans like Bush I that supported the AWB I Clinton got over the goal line.

Now we have an entirely different group out there who want you to have nothing; unless you're rich and connected. They are not only saying it out loud but with a bull horn.

50 years ago they would have been shouted down and pelted with rotten fruit in Democrat controlled states.

Here's what Eleanor Roosevelt thought about guns; you should carry one.



I would imagine someone like Mother Jones would not be popular at the rag they sell with her name on it.
Most of them (Stalone has an EPIC class 3 collection, Fineswine has a CCW etc) believe 'for me, not for thee.'

Rosey Odonald wanted her adopted kid to have an armed bodyguard at school because 'pro gun people didn't like her'
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:39 PM
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Guys, please let's not get away from the discussion I was hoping for. I really would like to hear from the leftists here on the board about their opinions. So far Readymom was the only one who stepped up to the plate and I enjoyed what she wrote. I was able to read zumhug's post only because Grotius answered him (Good responses). I would rather avoid the posts like he was putting on here as it's derailing and was way off topic. Woodyp just made a great post and gave an example.

I know many of who are like minded have expressed their thoughts and I do appreciate it. I'd really like to hear from the pro-gun forum leftists and be able to ask them questions if they are willing to give an honest answer. If they will at least do that please try not to point fingers and get upset with them. I know it's sometimes difficult for me as well as anyone who reads my posts knows this but on this thread I will avoid it .
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