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Old 12-02-2019, 12:18 PM
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Not that I like how powerful the federal government has become I can understand some of the reasons why. If President Lincoln didn't strengthen the federal government and issue things like the Emancipation Proclamation the entirety of the country would have fragmented.
And rightfully so!

Union is all about VOLUNTARY ASSENT. See divorce.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:56 PM
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Not that I like how powerful the federal government has become I can understand some of the reasons why. If President Lincoln didn't strengthen the federal government and issue things like the Emancipation Proclamation the entirety of the country would have fragmented. International pressures would also have caused us some real grief. I understand how drastic times call for drastic measures forcing him to make those decisions. He had to deploy federal troops on America's own soil. Looking at it with today's eyes pains me greatly. Then at the cost of loosing the nation it had to be done but was still very unfortunate.

President Lincoln was a very smart man placed into the right place at the right time for our nation. I really believe he dearly loved this nation and it's people. He was president during one of the most turbulent times in our nations history which must have gnawed at his very soul. I have seen the pictures of him during the war and he aged greatly each year. I cannot imagine what he must have felt each time he saw the statistics of loss to Americans on each side after each battle.

Anyone could speculate what things would be like today if the nation really did split or if it would have reconciled eventually again. I believe it probably would have but likely at the cost of our Constitution as written. Even so, I'm very thankful for the way things turned out as I believe it did for the better. What's more concerning to me today is what we do with this amazing gift of a nation our forefathers gave us with the Lord's providence over shadowing their decisions. I believe President Trump is a strong president and needed right now. His decisions he's making seem to have America first and I appreciate that. I'm looking forward to his second term. That being said, President Lincoln in my opinion was if not arguably the best president this nation ever had. I would like to have known him.

What exactly, did the "Emancipation Proclamation" have to do with the matters at hand circa Fall of 1862.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:18 PM
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What exactly, did the "Emancipation Proclamation" have to do with the matters at hand circa Fall of 1862.
It wasn't written and issued until January 1, 1863 but was a direct result in what was happening in 1862. Around the fall of 1862 some major battles had already been fought defining a Union toe hold in the south. By that time the south was beginning to really struggle although it still a very formidable Army and to a lesser extent Navy. President Lincoln had to come up with ways to strengthen his Army. He also had to keep the war popular with the people so they would support it. By issuing the Emancipation Proclamation, President Lincoln freed all the slaves in the south and also was accepting them into the Union Army. By doing so it bolstered the Union ranks and further strained the labor force in the south. It also garnered a more favorable world position and hurt the south with getting supplies imported. All of this was a direct result of what was going on as a result of the matters at hand circa Fall of 1862.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:13 PM
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By issuing the Emancipation Proclamation, President Lincoln freed all the slaves in the south
Couple of points:

1. Such dictatorial power justifies why the States seceded to begin with. Imagine if a POTUS today singlehandedly overturned Obamacare or Gay Marriage?

2. How generous?! To “free” slaves he had no power to free but did not “free” slaves in the States in the Union? Why did he stop with “freeing” slaves in the South; why not “free” slaves all over the world?

This is one of the most successful bits of propaganda of all time. Let’s call it for what it is.

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Old 12-03-2019, 04:54 PM
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This is one of the most successful bits of propaganda of all time. Let’s call it for what it is.
It wasn't propaganda at all.

It was an effort to get a third column into the fight, the Union thought that if the slaves rose up in revolt and disrupted everything in the CSA, using up materials and personnel to deal with it all, the war would be easier to win.

Didn't work out like they thought, of course.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Couple of points:

1. Such dictatorial power justifies why the States seceded to begin with. Imagine if a POTUS today singlehandedly overturned Obamacare or Gay Marriage?

2. How generous?! To “free” slaves he had no power to free but did not “free” slaves in the States in the Union? Why did he stop with “freeing” slaves in the South; why not “free” slaves all over the world?

This is one of the most successful bits of propaganda of all time. Let’s call it for what it is.
In today's world we can fortunately sit back and look at this more objectively as it has already played out. I completely understand your statement about the President reversing the SC decision. Thankfully it's not possible today but that was tantamount to that example then. I still believe President Lincoln did it to preserve the Union. Right or wrong it's the tactic he used and effective. The unfortunate fallout from that is the much more powerful government we have today. I believe it clear our founding fathers envisioned a small decentralized government but not sure how well that would work during a civil war. Our nation was still in it's infancy so I'm not positive it would be viewed as critically as it would be today. Either way it's an interesting discussion and I often think about such things and how it could play out if handled differently.

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Old 12-04-2019, 12:26 PM
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I still believe President Lincoln did it to preserve the Union. Right or wrong it's the tactic he used
Right or wrong?

Lincoln did NOT "preserve" the Union but transformed it from a voluntary association among equals to a union between master and slave.

Trump's meteoric rise was away from central/global power but decentralizing/national sovereignty. History repeats itself, forces bringing people today and forces bringing people apart go back and forth.

The idea that we ought to stay together - no matter how little we have in common - defies reason and does no justice to the cause of peace. It's better to go in peace than fight for a union not even wanted by one side.
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Old 12-04-2019, 02:20 PM
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How could you not like a guy you makes Liberal heads explode with regularity? The entertainment value alone is priceless. Trump certainly infuriates all the right people!
That's why he gets my support!!! I always wanted a president from the movies.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Right or wrong?

Lincoln did NOT "preserve" the Union but transformed it from a voluntary association among equals to a union between master and slave.

Trump's meteoric rise was away from central/global power but decentralizing/national sovereignty. History repeats itself, forces bringing people today and forces bringing people apart go back and forth.

The idea that we ought to stay together - no matter how little we have in common - defies reason and does no justice to the cause of peace. It's better to go in peace than fight for a union not even wanted by one side.
So if I understand you correctly you are saying that things are bad enough right now that the Union should fragment? I don't think the the Union was a voluntary association among equals. Prior to the Articles of Confederation that may have been true but from that point on it was looked at as a binding legal document for all of the Colonies to become states that came together for a common good. Later came the Constitution and I thank God for that because at least we have or Bill of Rights and all the Constitutional Amendments that help to govern this nation at the federal level.

I do not think everything is perfect and some states get away with trampling on it's citizenry more than others. Some states appear to have more individual freedoms than others but at least we are all held together as one nation. We are also free to move to other states if we deem the one we currently reside in to be unacceptable. Many people yell about states rights being trampled on by the federal government but it's the flip side of the coin. There has to be national guidance for the good of us all. I can understand states wanting to be able to govern themselves as they should but there needs to be a balance. I would rather have things the way they are now with the possibility to strengthen our nation with people like President Trump.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:44 PM
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So if I understand you correctly you are saying that things are bad enough right now that the Union should fragment?
Yes. And not just right now, since the tyrant Lincoln was on the scene.

And not just recently. The vitriol between the Left and Right in America is at dangerous levels. Once upon a time, my mother thought in 1988 that America would be well served either by Governor Dukakis or VP Bush. Few thought that way about the 2016 candidates. Since then, things are worse. Recently I read that >90% of press coverage is negative against Trump. Not very fair and balanced.
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Right or wrong?

Lincoln did NOT "preserve" the Union but transformed it from a voluntary association among equals to a union between master and slave.

Trump's meteoric rise was away from central/global power but decentralizing/national sovereignty. History repeats itself, forces bringing people today and forces bringing people apart go back and forth.

The idea that we ought to stay together - no matter how little we have in common - defies reason and does no justice to the cause of peace. It's better to go in peace than fight for a union not even wanted by one side.
The ends justify the means. If our country ceased to exist because
some states wanted to dissolve it, we would be weak. As a result
we would have less freedom. Why? Another country would enslave
us. The same way Tibet was and is enslaved.

If the far left wants to start a war, Trump just needs to start handing
out hunting permits for the far left.

Sure there are a few of the far left that are armed, but for the most
part they are a bunch of whiney cry babies.

The right in this country has most of the Military, and Law enforcement
on its side.

No disrespect intended, but this talk of giving up any of our beautiful
states is cowardice.
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:15 PM
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The ends justify the means. If our country ceased to exist because
some states wanted to dissolve it, we would be weak.
The ends DO NOT justify the means.

IF the CSA was not destroyed “we,” the USA would still exist; just smaller than it was. Just like King George III remained king AND Great Britain existed after they lost to us.

As far as the USA being weak, federal republics are supposed to be weak - only strong enough to repel a foreign invader. Don’t forget, to start WWII, America had something like the 13th largest Army, behind Belgium.

Contrary to your supposition, that a weaker USA would mean we are less free, the Creature has become what it was created to stop, tyrants. See Federal Debt. We are complicit in enslaving our own posterity!
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:31 PM
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The ends DO NOT justify the means.

IF the CSA was not destroyed “we,” the USA would still exist; just smaller than it was. Just like King George III remained king AND Great Britain existed after they lost to us.

As far as the USA being weak, federal republics are supposed to be weak - only strong enough to repel a foreign invader. Don’t forget, to start WWII, America had something like the 13th largest Army, behind Belgium.

Contrary to your supposition, that a weaker USA would mean we are less free, the Creature has become what it was created to stop, tyrants. See Federal Debt. We are complicit in enslaving our own posterity!
it's all relative. You say we are in debt. To who? Who the F is going
to collect and how?

We have by far the strongest Military in the world. Other countries who
don't trust their currency use ours.

China, and other countries purposely devalue their currency to gain
advantage.

You can't see the forest because your staring at a tree.

If you want to say our country sux, fine, at least tell us one that's better.

Your fantasy of a fictional America does not exist because it can't exist
in the real world.

We are the Police of the world because no one else can handle the job.

The only way for evil to take over the world is for the US to step aside and
once again do nothing....then or course it will come to take us.

Thanks to people like you, Peter, people who cared about this great country
President Trump is reversing much of the socialism the Democrats have
accomplished.

President Trump stopped the Obama care Tax, which let me keep more of my
money. President Trump is not a quitter, he will fight until, once again,
we are a country even YOU can be proud of.....
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:05 PM
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The ends justify the means. If our country ceased to exist because some states wanted to dissolve it, we would be weak. As a result we would have less freedom. Why? Another country would enslave us. The same way Tibet was and is enslaved......
That's simply not true. Cut this country in half, evenly, and you still have two of the three strongest countries on the planet. Cut it into a 2/3 and 1/3 split, depending on where the lines are drawn, and you probably have 2 of the 5 strongest on the planet.

And if we split amicably, instead of violently, we could still be allies in emergencies and remain nearly as strong as ever....assuming one of the two new countries didn't become full bore socialist/communist and implode under their own idiocy.


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No disrespect intended, but this talk of giving up any of our beautiful states is cowardice.
So it's cowardly to allow others to have freedom and determine their own fate, their own government, their own independence?

It was cowardly to support the revolutionaries in 1776?

I think you are terribly, terribly confused.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:31 PM
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Slavery and the civil war are some of the scars borne by the United States. So is the near extermination of Native Americans, the two wars we fought against Mexico, creating the Federal Reserve, and confiscating gold.

I regret a lot of things, but not getting rid of slavery. Slavery was the single biggest mistake made by our founding fathers, and a terrible scurge upon the US. While I regret it cost 600k America lives to correct that mistake, it was worth it.

Allowing the confederate states to leave the United States and allow slavery to continue on this continent, was never a option.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:41 PM
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Yes. And not just right now, since the tyrant Lincoln was on the scene.

And not just recently. The vitriol between the Left and Right in America is at dangerous levels. Once upon a time, my mother thought in 1988 that America would be well served either by Governor Dukakis or VP Bush. Few thought that way about the 2016 candidates. Since then, things are worse. Recently I read that >90% of press coverage is negative against Trump. Not very fair and balanced.
There is much to be said and speculated upon but this thread isn't about that. It's about whom is/was the better President Lincoln/Trump. Maybe we all should go back to that and save the rest for another thread topic?
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Old 12-04-2019, 10:58 PM
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If the Confederacy had been allowed to secede from the Union, it wouldn't have been long before individual states would have tried to secede from the Confederacy. Many of the rich slave owners wouldn't even give up a portion of their slaves and agricultural produce to support the soldiers who were getting killed for them. Before long the states would have been fighting over whether or not to allow slavery because the English and French wouldn't buy cotton that was produced with slaves. When the Industrial Revolution finally made it into the South, the British would have played the southern states like a fiddle.
Question is whether or not the modern North could have put up with a group of semi-autonomous entities that were allied to Mexico, Spain, France, Britain and who knows who else, with each European country trying to carve up North America the way they had the rest of the world.
The North wasn't just fighting the Confederacy, it was saying "hands off" to the European powers. Better to lay a good smack down on the South before they could get half of Europe involved in the conflict. Do a little research into why cotton bales were burning and rotting on nearly every wharf in the South.
As far as how Trump would have responded, backing out of the Middle East has shown that he's not into intervention, and back then, if you weren't willing to fight, you could wind up like Mexico, India and most of Africa, in that Europe would be using you like a cheap hooker. JMHO
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post

Allowing the confederate states to leave the United States and allow slavery to continue on this continent, was never a option.
LOL, that's funny. The tyrant Lincoln himself considered it an option.

Quote:
Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
http://americandigest.org/mt-archive...s_letter_t.php
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:36 PM
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That's simply not true. Cut this country in half, evenly, and you still have two of the three strongest countries on the planet. Cut it into a 2/3 and 1/3 split, depending on where the lines are drawn, and you probably have 2 of the 5 strongest on the planet.

And if we split amicably, instead of violently, we could still be allies in emergencies and remain nearly as strong as ever....assuming one of the two new countries didn't become full bore socialist/communist and implode under their own idiocy.

<snip>

But we know it would not be an amicable split don't we?

I live in Maryland but have a Republican Congressman, I refuse
to give up either, and there would be many like me.

In your far fetched fantasy, GOD would reach down, and grab
California, Maryland, New York, and a few other states and
put them together.

It ain't happening.

What your suggesting is anarchy that would be worse than
the civil war we already had.

Over half a million people dead was not enough for you,
you want much much more carnage.

Then, when we are all done killing each other, the Chinese, or
Russians come in to round us up.
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
That's simply not true. Cut this country in half, evenly, and you still have two of the three strongest countries on the planet. Cut it into a 2/3 and 1/3 split, depending on where the lines are drawn, and you probably have 2 of the 5 strongest on the planet.

And if we split amicably, instead of violently, we could still be allies in emergencies and remain nearly as strong as ever....assuming one of the two new countries didn't become full bore socialist/communist and implode under their own idiocy.

So it's cowardly to allow others to have freedom and determine their own fate, their own government, their own independence?

It was cowardly to support the revolutionaries in 1776?

I think you are terribly, terribly confused.
Lets talk about who started the civil war, and who refused to allow others the freedom to determine their own fate.
The folks who voted to suceed were all slave owners. They owned the massive plantations, and sat in the shade while their slaves did the work.
They did not want to give up their sick twisted society, so they voted to kill 600k of their own countrymen in a futile effort to keep their slaves.

These folks did not do much of the fighting and dieing either. They sat on their horse in their fancy officers uniforms, while the poor infantry walked straight into union cannon. They are the Tyrants, and the true Cowards of the civil war.

But the OP wanted to compare Lincoln with Donald Trump.
Well they both were resisted by cowardly Democrats who lost an election.
They both had to deal with several state governments who voted to ubstruct federal laws.
In both cases, the Democrats were mad that they would no longer be allowed to treat Black Americans like slaves.

If Trump survives impeachment, gets re elected, and continues winning we better clear off some room on Mount Rushmore for Trump's face.
He is doing a much better job of rebuilding America, ****ing off Democrats, and freeing the blacks to determine their own fate.
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