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Old 04-02-2011, 01:50 PM
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Notice the EMP baggs they sell, do not need to be grounded either. Grounding actually draws the energy to it . don't want that.
Not necessarily. Plus the grounding provides a path for the energy to flow into the ground to complete the circuit. Having a ground is better.

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By the way if your refrige depends on the fancy gaggets to keep it running, it's toast too. That's another one for Gas refrigerators.
The simple old fashioned electric refrigerators should be fine but any thing with a brain is not going to survive especially if it is plugged in at the time.
Sorry, but fridges have had microprocessors for decades. The 6502 CPU in the original Apple computer was from a refrigerator. And natural gas/propane fridges have microprocessors too.

Whether something survives or not depends on how far away the EMP blast is, and how strong it is, and other factors, including whether something is connected to a grid and so on. It isn't a forgone conclusion that everything that is plugged in will be toast, or everything that isn't will be fine. There are a lot of variables.

Personally, I am not too worried about EMP - I think that it is unlikely and a worst case scenario.

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A friend in the mountains watched in horror as lightening hit the ground in the next yard went past the chain link fence and strait to the ground on his phone line, which also had other things grounded to it ,out side and fried every thing in the house.
EMP pulse is worse, being a highly charged magnetic field, no wire required .
But the grid your tied to is a great antenna covering the planet.
Thankful for that old metal garden shed out back . with the generator off the grid and off the ground it should be safe .I hope. People laughed at me for keeping it . ha.
Yes, but EMP is generally not striking nearby. If it is you will probably have worse problems than the EMP because the nuke blast will be so close that you will be irradiated or burnt or otherwise suffer from worse nuke effects than EMP.
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:59 PM
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Be very careful with trying to ground a Faraday cage. What you may end up doing is creating a long wire which simply conducts the EMP to your Faraday "cage."
This is something I also thought about. Using grounding would work if you had a lightning rod because lightning strikes the rod, and THEN down the grounding wire. But an EMP strikes them both at once. It's not an isolated bolt like lightning. More like a flash of light that hits everywhere at once. Indeed, a grounding wire could become an "antenna" for the EMP just as people say that a microwave oven's cord could do the same.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:02 PM
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IF--and from what I've read, that's a big IF--you do it correctly.

Simply attaching it to something like the pipes in a house attaches it to a BIG antenna which will conduct an EMP pulse to your supposed Faraday cage.
Yes, you don't want to ground anything to your pipes - that is just a really bad practice that some people have gotten into.

Also, I would not ground on the same ground that my residence uses, I would use a separate ground. As you state, that ground is attached to your residence electrical system which is usually attached to the grid, and may carry the EMP or lightning to your house.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:05 PM
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This is something I also thought about. Using grounding would work if you had a lightning rod because lightning strikes the rod, and THEN down the grounding wire. But an EMP strikes them both at once. It's not an isolated bolt like lightning. More like a flash of light that hits everywhere at once. Indeed, a grounding wire could become an "antenna" for the EMP just as people say that a microwave oven's cord could do the same.
Almost anything metal will be an "antenna" whether it is grounded or not. The grounding gives it a path to dissipate to. Otherwise the charge can build up and it won't equalize inside and outside the container, cancel out and shield the contents. That is how a Faraday cage works.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by The Heretic View Post

Yes, but EMP is generally not striking nearby. If it is you will probably have worse problems than the EMP because the nuke blast will be so close that you will be irradiated or burnt or otherwise suffer from worse nuke effects than EMP.
The whole idea of an EMP strike is when a hostile country shoots a missle high up into the atmosphere about 100 miles or so above a country and detonates it, with the idea that the EMP would cover the entire country, disabling it. If a nuke were exploded over the middle of the USA, it could knock out the entire country, with just 1 single nuke. That means even a terrorist with one could do it. Of course it wouldn't kill anyone with the blast or radiation, but the results to all of our electronic items and electrical grid we depend on would be disastrous. So items that work without dependency on other things like outside service could still be of use when all else is lost. Flashlights is a prime example. We'll still need light for safey/security. All it takes is batteries to run them. But the lights have to be protected from the EMP first in order to be useful afterwards.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LED View Post
But the lights have to be protected from the EMP first in order to be useful afterwards.
Don't the batteries need to be protected as well?

My concern is :
1. if there is a way for my solar panels to be protected while in use?
2. if the power supply and inverter are shielded as well as the power cables from the panels, will the feed from the panels still bring the EMP into the shielded units?

Is there a way to protect the inverter and power supply from the panels while still using it if its needed, say some kind of surge breaker set-up?

I understand we can make solar panels, although pretty weak, with heat and copper plates. Do these plates need to b protected from the EMP before making them into solar collectors?
Glad others who are concerned are here to discuss these issues.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LED View Post
The whole idea of an EMP strike is when a hostile country shoots a missle high up into the atmosphere about 100 miles or so above a country and detonates it, with the idea that the EMP would cover the entire country, disabling it. If a nuke were exploded over the middle of the USA, it could knock out the entire country, with just 1 single nuke. That means even a terrorist with one could do it. Of course it wouldn't kill anyone with the blast or radiation, but the results to all of our electronic items and electrical grid we depend on would be disastrous. So items that work without dependency on other things like outside service could still be of use when all else is lost. Flashlights is a prime example. We'll still need light for safey/security. All it takes is batteries to run them. But the lights have to be protected from the EMP first in order to be useful afterwards.
I am aware of how nuclear EMP works, my first job out of college was to collect data that was used to model how a particular data comm system that the DOD used would react to various aspects of EMP.



It would of course depend on the nuke, where it was exploded and when, but it isn't so simple as to say one device would knock out all of the USA equally. It won't. The further away you are the less you will be affected, but also your orientation will matter, and other factors come into play. The device may or may not kill someone - it depends on the device, how close you are too it, how precise it is and whether it is meant as an EMP device or not. Nothing is for sure in the fog of war.

Also, I personally believe the chance of an aerial burst meant to serve as an EMP device is less likely than the chance that a terrorist will explode some dirty bomb in some fashion and then you may have to deal with the effects of that, with EMP being one of the side effects. I live near an international port, and this is one of my risks.
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Old 04-03-2011, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by The Heretic View Post
It would of course depend on the nuke, where it was exploded and when, but it isn't so simple as to say one device would knock out all of the USA equally. It won't. The further away you are the less you will be affected, but also your orientation will matter, and other factors come into play.
This. However, there's a good chance the damage will be widespread due to ripple effect on the grid as unaffected sections take up the load of the damaged section. A section of our power grid going down will also affect the logistics of our infrastructure.

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Also, I personally believe the chance of an aerial burst meant to serve as an EMP device is less likely than the chance that a terrorist will explode some dirty bomb in some fashion and then you may have to deal with the effects of that, with EMP being one of the side effects. I live near an international port, and this is one of my risks.
This can occur and the consequences should it occur will be dire, which is why I also consider it my number one scenario.

The dirty bomb scenario still generates an EMP which will load the power grid beyond capacity. The damage may be local - a few city blocks, but it could be city wide. Port of Long Beach, if it were hit by a dirty bomb, could theoretically take down the grid of greater Los Angeles, which means SoCal would be calling on Arizona for even more power.

People are worried about their iPods surviving an EMP. The real concern, IMO, is what will happen when the municipal water pumps go down and wet waste starts building up in toilets across town.

-----

There is disagreement on grounding a Faraday Cage. To restate what has already been said, a Cage works by shunting current around the component to be protected.

Is grounding better/worse than not grounding?...

I'm not a nuclear physicist, but for me to answer that question, I ask, "Where will current flow?"

If grounded, it flows to/from ground assuming ground is at a different potential from the cage.

If ungrounded, where will current flow if all sides of the cage are at the same potential? Answer? It won't.

-----

Conductive Mesh (as used in a Faraday Cage) is a high pass filter. The larger the holes in the mesh, the lower the -3dB point in the filter. Said another way, if you use mesh for a cage, it will pass high frequencies. The comparison of mesh wrt the cracks in a safe are apples and oranges. Read my post again. Look at the door to wall structure of a safe. Low frequencies are blocked by the physical structure, as are the high frequencies. Energy from both will travel along the door, walls, and locking bars to equalize the charge.

In other words, there is no direct line-of-sight path, through the crack of the door/wall, to the interior of the safe.

Not true if the safe were made of metal mesh.

-----

The appliance inside the cage, with the power cord extending outside, is a separate circuit IMO. The power cord will gather charge (like the good antenna it is) and will overload the appliance until something in the appliance's circuit opens up. This will hold true whether the power cord is shielded or not.

I'm not convinced anything else inside the safe will suffer, as it is still shielded from the wave of EMP.

-----

We have two real world examples of EMP.

Starfish Prime was a relatively small pulse that blew a few street lights out a great distance away.

The second example is a series of experiments that showed modern automobiles (ungrounded) and locomotives (grounded) surviving dense e-fields. This study also (accurately, IMO) lays out the effects of EMP on our power grid and communications infrastructure.

The burning question here is, "What's the biggest pulse/closest distance from that pulse that my iPod can survive?" No one knows.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both razed by direct hits from small-yield bombs, but those data are pretty much useless by modern standards.

Like I've said a dozen times, I'm not a physicist. I'm could be wrong on many details, so take what I say with a grain of skepticism.
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Old 04-03-2011, 06:06 PM
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From what I have gathered on the subject and I am no expert:

The electric pulse is not from the initiall wave but from the bounce off the earth. This is why grounding is not good. Let me know if im wrong on this because Ill start grounding if so.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:21 AM
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As I understand it, the electromanetic inductive spike is from the initial wave.

The decision to ground or not to ground is more complicated, IMO.

In a grounded configuration, the charge amplitude can be attenuated (reduced) and is very quickly bled off though the ground. The down side IMO is in most cases the conductor attached between the cage and ground is a broadband antenna.

In a floating configuration (no ground), the charge remains in the metal of the cage, to discharge slowly through the air and whatever the cage is sitting on. I personally choose this configuration based on my understanding of electricity and electronics primarily because I don't add an antenna to the cage.

Also with the floating configuration.... The charge will bleed off within minutes under normal conditions. Even if I touch the cage before the charge has fully bled off, my body's natural resistance bridging the gap between the cage and the floor will bleed the charge slowly enough (limit the current flow) to not harm me.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LED View Post
This is something I also thought about. Using grounding would work if you had a lightning rod because lightning strikes the rod, and THEN down the grounding wire. But an EMP strikes them both at once. It's not an isolated bolt like lightning. More like a flash of light that hits everywhere at once. Indeed, a grounding wire could become an "antenna" for the EMP just as people say that a microwave oven's cord could do the same.
The Earth's capacity to absorb energy is much much much greater than anything else's. In an EMP or lightning strike, energy will flow through the ground wire at close to the speed of light to the point of lowest charge, which will almost always be the Earth. Keep grounding lines short and avoid sharp bends and you should have no problems.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:51 AM
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This. However, there's a good chance the damage will be widespread due to ripple effect on the grid as unaffected sections take up the load of the damaged section. A section of our power grid going down will also affect the logistics of our infrastructure.



This can occur and the consequences should it occur will be dire, which is why I also consider it my number one scenario.

The dirty bomb scenario still generates an EMP which will load the power grid beyond capacity. The damage may be local - a few city blocks, but it could be city wide. Port of Long Beach, if it were hit by a dirty bomb, could theoretically take down the grid of greater Los Angeles, which means SoCal would be calling on Arizona for even more power.
How is a "dirty bomb" gonna generate an EMP ??
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:32 PM
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It's my understanding that a dirty bomb is a low order thermonuclear bomb.
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:34 PM
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Idk if anyone already said this... but would an EMP Burst affect something if the batteries are taken out and it is off? there would be no power running through the device... So there would be nothing to destroy.. right?
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Old 04-05-2011, 01:08 PM
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EMP doesn't care whether the circuit is energized or not. The power cord in prior discussion is with regard to its function as an antenna only. If the cord is plugged into the grid, the antenna is formed from the power cord and the power grid. If it's not plugged in, then the antenna is formed from the power cord alone.

Understand that any conductive material is an antenna. Length, orientation, conductivity, and in some cases, orientation and proximity to a ground plane, determine the efficiency and bandwidth of the antenna. So removing the power cord enhances survival probability of your iPod, but doesn't ensure it.

Hope this answers your question.
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:59 PM
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Remember that electricity has to have a full circuit to work A flash light with out the batteries in it should weather the storm very well. placing items in a deep freezer which is un plugged should also help just don't let the items touch the sides. the static bags which electric parts come in are also a good help.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:21 PM
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I'm a chemist, not a physisist, but I've read a lot about EMP. Whether a LED will survive an EMP depends on a couple of factors. Distance from the EMP, orientation to the EMP, length of conductors attached to the LED, random chance, and shielding. I tend to assume that an LED would not survive an EMP. That way, I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

I consider an EMP attack to be moderately likely during my lifetime, about a 6 on the Torino scale. That's less likely than a tornado actually hitting my house and more likely than Yellowstone erupting in my lifetime. (That's _my_ threat analysis. YMMV) Included in this assessment is the potential for a CME that impacts earth.

The potential damage caused by an EMP attack is civilization level destruction, partly because of the immediate effect on the US and partly because of the likelyhood that we, or someone else, would continue the use of nuclear weapons.

As far as I have been able to determine:
Faraday cages will work ungrounded (like shoplifter's foil lined bags to defeat RFID and other anti-shoplifting tags).
Faraday cages will work using mesh or screen.
Faraday cages work better when grounded.
Faraday cages work better using solid conductive walls without any gaps.

Most of my electronics are just sitting on a shelf, or in a drawer, or in a vehicle. That's where I keep them so they are handy in the routine emergencies that are far more common.

However, some of my electronics are stored in a 6' grounded metal office supply cabinet in my basement. The cabinet doors have metal mesh gasket picked up online at an army surplus site. Interior corners are covered in 3M conductive copper tape.

I keep stuff organized in popcorn tins.

I don't think it's overkill. My total investment is about $20 for the tape, and a couple of hours playing EMP survival prepper. If I'm wrong, then my electronics and flashlights will be neatly stored in the basement. If I'm right, then my working electronics and flashlights will be neatly stored in the basement.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AceScanner View Post
I don't think it's overkill. My total investment is about $20 for the tape, and a couple of hours playing EMP survival prepper. If I'm wrong, then my electronics and flashlights will be neatly stored in the basement. If I'm right, then my working electronics and flashlights will be neatly stored in the basement.
The interesting thing about being right and wrong in the case of an EMP, is that you won't know whether you were right or wrong unless you have one of each thing in several different environments; i.e., an electronic component inside a shielded container and the same component outside that container or in a different kind of container.

Or to say it another way, if a component stored inside a shielded container works after EMP, the only way you will know for sure that it works because it was shielded was if the same type of component right outside the shield compartment doesn't work. And even then it might be chalked up to some difference in manufacture.

Anyway, making a grounded Faraday container is just so easy that I don't see why a person wouldn't do it if they considered EMP a significant risk. Personally I don't. My interest is mostly academic.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:46 PM
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I'm not worried about flashlights. My/Our concern is what effect one would have on the laser sights, and night vision equipment.

I am not buying the new light bulbs for the same issues.

ISS
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:45 AM
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It's my understanding that a dirty bomb is a low order thermonuclear bomb.
Sorry but your understanding is incorrect. A 'dirty bomb" is a radiation dispersal device (RDD). It is merely a conventional explosive with radioactive material surrounding it. The explosive just spreads the hot material over a wide area. No fission or fusion is involved.

A wide area EMP can only occur in three ways on earth.

1. An actual nuclear explosion. Most effective in near space, just above the earths atmosphere causing a Compton effect described in post #47.

2. A chemical explosive device which collapses a magnetic field. These were used in the initial bombing of Iraq to great success to disrupt C3. This would be measured in a few square miles.

3. A solar CME causing the same Compton effect. This would be something like the Carrington event.
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