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Old 03-26-2020, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JabbaNoBother View Post
Bingo, common calibers to find after a major SHTF event.
Again, nobody is going to be leaving ammo laying around. Not the original owner, and not any heirs if that original owners dies, and not the "victors" who might steal from that owner or take the spoils of battle if they kill the original owner.

NOONE is just going to leave crates of ammo behind.

I swear some people have a real mental block with this relatively easy concept.
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Old 03-26-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
Hmm, I tend to disagree, as far as the 10's of thousands of rounds of commercial ammunition -versus- component costs.

Some equipment? Sure, maybe, but again depends. A progressive press & dies, figure costs 3 - 4 cases of 9mm at last months prices.

Scale, tumbler, odds and ends maybe another case of 9mm at last months prices.

Leaves only powder , projectiles & primers to have been purchased and put back.
And if you have 10,000 brass, bullets, primers and time to reload but have zero powder, guess what you have.

A lot of relatively useless weight. Maybe good trade fodder.

But you're in worse immediate position than someone with 100 rounds of loaded ammo.
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Old 03-26-2020, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Precisely! It's a fantasy to think one is going to have all FIVE components to make ammo in a SHTF world. You need brass, powder, bullets, primers, and TIME. If you have only 3 or 4 components, you have ZERO ammo. So you can run around to every junk yard gathering lead wheel weights, run around to every battlefield gathering buckets of brass, etc. all of which consumes a lot of TIME which will be in short time in a survival world. But you will have ZERO ammo made in doing these errands.

And a person certainly isn't going to travel around to battlefields with buckets of components making ammo on the spot...

It's just a silly fantasy IMO. Buy it cheap and stack it deep and have lots of professionally made ammo ready and loaded into mags. It's the best practice.
I think the most important component is, and you must think so as well since you capitalized it, is time. If things are so bad, that you are expending ammo, at a rate, where reloading it, becomes a priority, **** has gone sideways, and you sure won't find me out meandering around picking up brass, like I was wandering around a prairie, picking wildflowers. You were just in a firefight, if that happens, staying out of sight, I would think would become your main priority. At least, that would be my priority.
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Old 03-26-2020, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Again, nobody is going to be leaving ammo laying around. Not the original owner, and not any heirs if that original owners dies, and not the "victors" who might steal from that owner or take the spoils of battle if they kill the original owner.

NOONE is just going to leave crates of ammo behind.

I swear some people have a real mental block with this relatively easy concept.
this is like trying to convince a liberal.....In a TRUE, I don't mean like it is today, SHTF scenario. A person is single. Dies alone in his own home and has a large stock of ammo.
THAT ammo will be scavenged. It won't just disappear on it's own.
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Old 03-26-2020, 01:58 PM
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Once again, people seem to have the you can only do 1 thing mentality, either buy factory ammo OR reload. If you reload, you can only stock bullets & primers OR brass & powder but not both! I guess I'm a rebel as I do both & buy ALL the components. While I do occasionally buy new empty brass, most of mine is from factory ammo I bought, range pick-up & gifted by friends will show up with a bag/box or ice cream pail of brass. One of the nice things about the ability to reload is I can stock lots of powder & primers for rounds I don't shoot without being a waste, cause primers & most powders can be used with a variety of calibers. Then I have a lot of free brass of different calibers from ranges/friends that IF I needed to load I could. If I don't have a need, I can still use the powder & primers on calibers I do own & shoot. Also bullets of a given diameter can be used in a wide variety of calibers & making your own bullets is one of the more common & simple components you can manufacture at home. I have a bunch of dies for calibers that I either no longer own or have never owned, but many of those I still have all the components to reload for them right on my shelf. Some I don't presently stock either in much quantity or not at all, so if a buddy of mine showed up & needed 270 ammo, I'd have brass, powder & primers for it, but no bullets, well maybe a 1/2 box laying around somewhere. That's where to me even if you aren't an avid reloader but have a friend who is, or think you MIGHT get into it, at least start off by getting some molds for the caliber you do shoot, especially if it's a less common diameter bullet. To me that is common sense prepping. Bullet molds aren't that expensive. Getting some gas checks for your bullet dia. wouldn't be a bad idea either.
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Old 03-26-2020, 02:42 PM
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this is like trying to convince a liberal.....In a TRUE, I don't mean like it is today, SHTF scenario. A person is single. Dies alone in his own home and has a large stock of ammo.
THAT ammo will be scavenged. It won't just disappear on it's own.
Let's take your fantasy scenario. If a person with guns and ammo dies alone and you stumble upon his cache, then it's irrelevant what gun and caliber you had. Why wouldn't you just consider adopting the dead person's gun along with his ammo? So the point is then mooted. If you had zero 9mm for your pistol, and Mr. Dead Man had a .45acp 1911 and thousands of rounds, all of this is mooted. Obviously, you'd take the gun and ammo and become the owner and user of a 1911 and .45acp.

In such a world, people will not die alone. They will have others. Besides, freedom of movement will be severely limited ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T HAVE AMMO TO BEGIN WITH.

You aren't going to make it next door, not to mention out of your block or to other unknown city blocks to investigate unknown houses. Such a proposition to maybe gather ammo will risk your life every step.

The most dangerous military operations involve house-to-house operations. And military has resources we cannot fathom.

Yahoos wandering the wasteland for boxes of 9mm ammo will simply be shot on sight and left for dead.


Relying on other people to die, or winning firefights (apparently with low ammo stocks), or finding caches of ammo after SHTF is simply planning to fail when all this was widely and cheaply available for years...
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Old 03-26-2020, 03:28 PM
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I hate to be redundant but scavenging is a short term strategy AT BEST.
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Old 03-26-2020, 03:54 PM
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Most here seem to support a narrative with data that makes that very narrative indisputable.

We have no idea what a real SHTF will be like and how we can or will react and be able to acquire whatever.

That said IMO this debate is more for a pre-SHTF crisis argument

There have been times when reloading was far more economical than factory in fact most times.
Since the last election of 16 the price of factory has dropped to the lowest in 15 years making the factory ammo a better buy with many above arguments seemingly true

We do not know if this current lack of product will continue but the longer it goes on the more attractive reloading will become.

I am of the school of I don't want 20,000 rounds of 9MM components I can load I am of the school load the 20K rounds of 9MM now and have it ready, same with 223 45 whatever you shoot
That said I can wait years to get more components when they hit that sweet price spot or when another reloader dies and I buy his entire supply.

I keep a small supply of almost every caliber you can imagine.
If I run into some reloading dies I don't need/want I will load up some ammo in that caliber before I sell off the dies so I have a dozen 7MM Rem Mag, 10 250 Savage. 100 3030, 300 40S&W, 200 357Sig, 250 38SPL..65 ARG, 10MM, 303Brit, 8.5Swede, 7MM Mauser and 7MM08 etc etc etc etc all I have no guns for.

Is it cheaper to buy 9MM than reloading?
You tell me
I bought out a reloader who was downsizing his home to an apartment. I sold off 80% made a grand and then loaded up 15K rounds of 124gr 9MM all for not one red cent.
Unless someone gifted you 15K rounds of factory you can not shoot 9MM for less than that

Both arguments are correct but only in proper context not in your "Oh yeah if it is like I say and not like you say then": point of view


IMO
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
If you had the foresight to have reloading components (primers, powder, and bullets, and TIME - which will be in short supply if you're fighting for survival) why wouldn't you just get pre-made ammo?

Ammunition always trumps components that need to be assembled.

Are you just going to call "time out" and go gather brass and then spend hours making ammo on the fly? All of these reloading theories are mostly fantasy and nonsense.

Your 'fantasy' is my reality.

You are crying right now because 9mm plinking ammo is too expensive for you or that you cant find any.

If I shoot up every single can of ammo I already have loaded - All I have to do is just go gather the supplies and do the work to fill the cans back up again.



Think about it like it were enchiladas. Really good enchiladas... You had a bunch last week but now they are gone. You want more but the store that has them the way you like them 'ready made' is closed...

Some people have all the ingredients for those enchiladas in their stocks and if they want more they just - make more.

If they want to adjust the heat of the particular batch they are making they just give or take with the jalapeno peppers that they already have there.

If they want to use better cuts of meat or lesser - They have both in their stocks and can choose there as well.


You might be 'ok' with having zero enchiladas in your home and no ingredients available so that you even could make them yourself if you wanted or needed to...

Not me.

The soft tortillas were non existent at the grocery store today. None of any brand on those shelves.
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Old 03-26-2020, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DG23 View Post
The soft tortillas were non existent at the grocery store today. None of any brand on those shelves.
Where are you located? I might spot you a couple packages. That is one thing we've not been in short supply on. I'm afraid to tell people not in the know they are "Mexican bread". Then I would have no enchiladas or soft tacos.
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Old 03-26-2020, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DG23 View Post
Your 'fantasy' is my reality.

You are crying right now because 9mm plinking ammo is too expensive for you or that you cant find any.

If I shoot up every single can of ammo I already have loaded - All I have to do is just go gather the supplies and do the work to fill the cans back up again.



Think about it like it were enchiladas. Really good enchiladas... You had a bunch last week but now they are gone. You want more but the store that has them the way you like them 'ready made' is closed...

Some people have all the ingredients for those enchiladas in their stocks and if they want more they just - make more.

If they want to adjust the heat of the particular batch they are making they just give or take with the jalapeno peppers that they already have there.

If they want to use better cuts of meat or lesser - They have both in their stocks and can choose there as well.


You might be 'ok' with having zero enchiladas in your home and no ingredients available so that you even could make them yourself if you wanted or needed to...

Not me.

The soft tortillas were non existent at the grocery store today. None of any brand on those shelves.
He probably had 6 dozen enchiladas, and froze the extras, and you only made a dozen and bought enough groceries, to make how ever many more.
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Old 03-26-2020, 05:14 PM
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I like tacos. I like to make my own and I like to buy them from lots of different restaurants and street vendors and I like to to eat the ones my friends make. Doesn't much matter where they come from as long as they're tasty.

A lot like my ammo.
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Old 03-26-2020, 05:19 PM
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For all those that say that you won’t have any time to reload, where I live the winters are cold and long. If I’m just making some stew and feeding the wood fire for a week, why not make a few thousand rounds? I reload and when I have nothing to do in the winter that is what I do. I also stack it deep enough that all I typically do is reload what I shoot. So that means if I have 4,000 9mm and I shoot 500, I still have lots to go through.

When people say that factory rounds have been cheap, their components were still cheaper. I bought my components when they were cheap and again only resupply.
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Old 03-26-2020, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
If you had the foresight to have reloading components (primers, powder, and bullets, and TIME - which will be in short supply if you're fighting for survival) why wouldn't you just get pre-made ammo?

Ammunition always trumps components that need to be assembled.

Are you just going to call "time out" and go gather brass and then spend hours making ammo on the fly? All of these reloading theories are mostly fantasy and nonsense.
This seems to be the one gun related topic that you and I will never agree.
Food, water, security. If you dont control it, produce it, protect it, you dont own it.
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Old 03-26-2020, 06:44 PM
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There are pros and cons to both strategies. Regardless of which one you followed, you are still infinitely better off than the individual who did nothing.

If you were of that small subset who did both, YOU are likely much better off than the others who followed one strategy or the other.
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Old 03-26-2020, 07:01 PM
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Your 'fantasy' is my reality.

You are crying right now because 9mm plinking ammo is too expensive for you or that you cant find any.

If I shoot up every single can of ammo I already have loaded - All I have to do is just go gather the supplies and do the work to fill the cans back up again.
Nope. Just looked at my inventory spread sheet. Lots of calibers, lots of ammo. I'm good bro... 'enuff said.

And anyone thinks of coming to "scavenge" ammo is gonna get plenty of ammo. Bring your catchers mit...

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Old 03-26-2020, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Again, nobody is going to be leaving ammo laying around. Not the original owner, and not any heirs if that original owners dies, and not the "victors" who might steal from that owner or take the spoils of battle if they kill the original owner.



NOONE is just going to leave crates of ammo behind.



I swear some people have a real mental block with this relatively easy concept.
Silly me, no fatality wounded soldier ever had their unspent ammo taken and used by anyone else...ever, in the history of firearms on a two way gun range.

Here's a tasty nugget, what would happen to the remains of a 50 cartridge box if a fudd (sure no explaination is needed on that term) decided to suck start his .45? That brass gonna grow legs and skip happily down the street? No, it will stay there for someone to use.

The start of the "you can find 9mm...SHTF" was tongue and cheek sarcasm. Meaning of the most popular cartridges would most likely be found one way or another "X" many days after (insert your global catastrophe here).

Its not and never was about your favorite shop having stock during peace time. I thought you were so money.

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Old 03-26-2020, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
How many times has this ignorant statement been repeated by folks who just tirelessly don't know what they are talking about:

"I carry a 9mm because in SHTF you can find it everywhere!" Generally stated with utter confidence, as though it grows like wild raspberries in Washington state meadows or salmon swimming in Alaskan rivers.

Yet in just days of nervous buying, 9x19 is basically out of stock (OOS) everywhere and the remaining locations are charging high premiums and limiting quantities.

You know what is still in stock and easily obtained at the moment? The mighty .40 caliber. Turns out, being smart and not following the crowd has advantages.

And for clarity, it's always smart to diversify calibers, and I have dozens of calibers in pistol, longgun, and shotgun combined and have laid back ammo so these periods don't impact me. In other words, I'm not reliant on my ammo "being found everywhere when SHTF."

You either plan or plan to fail.
Or...just reload for whatever you shoot. Never been out or low on ammo for any centerfire caliber I own. I just ordered 1000 9mm jacketed projectiles a few minutes ago. I didn't need them but the prices are still good so why not. I gave all family members 9mm handguns and assembled AR's for my adult daughter and son. They won't run out of ammo.
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Old 03-26-2020, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
If you had the foresight to have reloading components (primers, powder, and bullets, and TIME - which will be in short supply if you're fighting for survival) why wouldn't you just get pre-made ammo?

Ammunition always trumps components that need to be assembled.

Are you just going to call "time out" and go gather brass and then spend hours making ammo on the fly? All of these reloading theories are mostly fantasy and nonsense.
Time to load ammo is not really an issue. I've reloaded ammo for over 40 years and I can reload a box of 50 rounds of 9mm in 10 minutes taking my time on one of my Dillon presses. I can't drive to the nearest store stocking ammo...or order it online and have it in my hand faster than I can reload it. I've never been without loaded ammo. But then again, if SHTF...you won't be ordering OR buying any commercial ammo if you run low. I won't run low on components...been doing this for 40 years. When prices are low on commercially loaded ammo, I buy that too just not by the pallet and certainly no panic buys.
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Old 03-26-2020, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JabbaNoBother View Post
Silly me, no fatality wounded soldier ever had their unspent ammo taken and used by anyone else...ever, in the history of firearms on a two way gun range.

Here's a tasty nugget, what would happen to the remains of a 50 cartridge box if a fudd (sure no explaination is needed on that term) decided to suck start his .45? That brass gonna grow legs and skip happily down the street? No, it will stay there for someone to use.

The start of the "you can find 9mm...SHTF" was tongue and cheek sarcasm. Meaning of the most popular cartridges would most likely be found one way or another "X" many days after (insert your global catastrophe here).

Its not and never was about your favorite shop having stock during peace time. I thought you were so money.

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If you're the first on the scene, what difference does the caliber make? You'd have whatever the deceased had in terms of guns and calibers. So it's a totally irrelevant point regarding "9mm will be everywhere."

Secondly, again, the odds of you bounding around house-to-house and surviving the adventure is going to be about zero. Z E R O

Third, someone will get there before you, anyhow.

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Originally Posted by thess02 View Post
Time to load ammo is not really an issue. I've reloaded ammo for over 40 years and I can reload a box of 50 rounds of 9mm in 10 minutes taking my time on one of my Dillon presses. I can't drive to the nearest store stocking ammo...or order it online and have it in my hand faster than I can reload it. I've never been without loaded ammo. But then again, if SHTF...you won't be ordering OR buying any commercial ammo if you run low. I won't run low on components...been doing this for 40 years. When prices are low on commercially loaded ammo, I buy that too just not by the pallet and certainly no panic buys.
So, you had the foresight to lay back 4 components and will be adding a 5th (time) but you couldn't have alternately just had the foresight to simply lay back pallets of ammo instead?

Interesting.

It takes you 10 minutes to "acquire" 50 rounds of ammo. I can acquire 1000 rounds in less than 1 minute. All day long...

To each their own, and I remain unconvinced about reloading. And this isn't a reloading thread anyway so why do reloaders always chime in?

I didn't start this thread to argue or discuss reloading (which has its merits but clearly has drawbacks). I started it purely to point out the silliness of the idea that 9mm would be all over the place and widely available. Clearly that's now proven to be a farce.
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