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Old 03-22-2020, 05:57 PM
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Default You have selected a SHTF Rifle, can you keep it going?



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Something to think about is can you keep your choice of weapon going in the field and how many tools will you need to carry that will allow you to do so and two do you have the parts and three do you know how to replace them?

If you are going to carry an AR get a needle oiler and carry Mobil 1 0W20 synthetic motor oil in it. Put a couple drops in the port holes on the bolt and it will keep the carbon soft and easier to clean.


If your extractor fails are you able to replace it and do you have one on hand?

If a striker fails, are you able to replace it and do you have one?

If you fall and your stock breaks can you fix it in the field.

What kind of sling will you use? Leather will rot and may be eaten. Best I have found is M16 silent sling with rough weave nylon. Will last many years. Is 1 1/4" wide. Even better get a old worn out OD cotton sling for the M1/M14 and remove the hardware and replace the cotton webbing with the M16 round weave nylon. Don't know how long they will hold up as I started using such modification in 1980 after I got a call from a Marine who thought the drawing should be changed from the cotton to the rough weave nylon and now I have very few cotton slings left. As well you can use this sling as a tourniquet.

Your choice of sling swivels is critical. You want MILSPEC 1 1/4" sling swivels and not the ones that come on most commercial rifles for the 1" slings and some of the 1 1/4" sling swivels are not reliable.

If you fall and your muzzle gets rammed full of dirt how will you correct the problem? Have you made any preparations to prevent such.

If you have a buffer in your rifle (ARs come to mind) when they fail they will become disassembled. What is the your immediate course of action?

The climate you are in will likely be a factor and use of the wrong lubricant will insure your weapon won't work. I have seen rifles go down as warm as 20 degrees ABOVE zero and plenty go down at minus 20,30,40,50 and 60 below zero.

Your fire control is likely to fail. This has nothing to do with ladders, axes, pumpers etc. Your fire control is your sight system. Most will have optics, do you have a spare scope with mounts pre zeroed for your rifle in your pack? Hint the smaller the scope the easier it is to carry.

You should be aware that generally a rifle scope is more delicate than a pistol scope thus is you have a pistol scope on your rifle the chances of it giving problems is much less.

If you have a AR and the ring on the lower receiver breaks in a fall or from being dropped do you have a spare lower receiver?

If you have a bolt rifle with a wood stock there are things you can do to make it take more abuse like drilling a hole from the action area down through the pistol grip and inserting a piece of 1/4" to 3/8" all thread rod and secure it with Devcon 2 Ton epoxy. Hint grind a flat on one side and take a hack saw and cut a slot on one end so you can run the all thread in the hole partially filled with Devcon 2 Ton Epoxy and the excess epoxy can escape up the ground flat area and come to the top of the hole.

Several years ago I identified a oiler that seems to be ideal for weapons. It is called a Neiko Precision Oiler and you can find them on ebay. I got mine from Lowes years ago and it has been with me at least 15 years. I have Mobil 1 0W20 Synthetic motor oil in it.

A laminated stock is even better or FIBERGLASS best of all but they are pricey and heavy. CIP the Marine Corps while evaluating their choice of sniper rifles back in the day of the M40A1 built them up and took them to the bayonet course and had troops utilize them on the course and the stocks did not break. Forgot this was after they shot a 7.62 round through the pistol grip at right angles.

The Army had the M14 sniper rifles with the Redfield scopes with range finder on it and the same part broke on every one of them.

The battle course of fire for the Springfield 1903 rifle (1920s onward) was to start at the standing position, rifle loaded. When the shooter saw the target move he sat down and fired 10 rounds in 50 seconds at 200 yards. Give this a try. The 1903 only holds five in mag so a reload of 5 was required. Same target was fired standing to prone at 300 yards in 60 seconds.


Several things are likely to occur such as striker failure, extractor failure, or a stock failure from a fall etc.

Simple things can shut your arsenal down. Running around out in the woods you are likely to lose your balance, trip or fall. What can happen to your rifle should you do so.

I tend to think the physical load of carrying lots of ammo for a AR/AK is not feasible. Letting off lots of shots in a hurry will let the world know exactly where you are before you empty the magazine. One shot fired your location is less likely to be visited.

Carrying a bolt action rifle you are not as likely to get large amounts of lead in the air at once and a bolt action is likely to be more accurate than a semi auto as they need more TLC to keep them going in the long haul.

Per Col Fackler MD Army Wound Ballistics Lab he said a non lethal wound from a 6.5MM or larger rifle will generally incapacitate a individual quicker than a lethal hit from a handgun.

Moral to that is "never ever take a handgun to a rifle match"

Have you evaluated the performance of the weapon you intend to carry? Try this. Save your gallon milk jugs and when you get about 6 fill them with water and shoot them with your candidate rifle at 100 yards, 200 yards, 300 yards, 400 yards. Even better if you have someone that can be down range behind protection have them photograph the jugs as they are hit.
I believe you will be shocked at how much loss of performance different rounds produce or rather fail to produce as the range increases.
The 5.56 round (55 and 62 gr) both have their highest wound lethality in the first 95 yards per the Army Wound Ballistics Lab.

As well if you have the contacts get a piece of steel about 12" diameter and 1 1/4" thick and set it up on edge on a flat surface and shoot it from 300 yards and see if your selection of calibers will knock it over.
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Old 03-22-2020, 07:06 PM
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Thought provoking post, Hummer, but dang. I'm just going to pick up a different rifle.
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Old 03-22-2020, 08:13 PM
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Well there are really neat fun rifles but when evaluated against what failures you should be prepared to expect the selection is severely reduced. For instance I just posted a thread on the Sauer 100 rifle being really good but would it meet the requirements identified above NO. Then again would it likely hold up for say 12,000 round test at Aberdeen Proving Ground in normal firing as far as barrel life etc I would say yes.

I would love to be able to do a sniper rifle evaluation on the Sauer as the sustained fire test procedures I THINK it would be a winner. For instance the requirement for sniper rifles was 10,000 rounds fired one shot per minute and cleaned every 25 rounds and the barrel cannot exceed rejection for at least 6000 rounds. I believe the Sauer would sail right through as long as stick propellant was loaded in the ammo.

In the test and evaluation field you find stuff you thought to be great goes down and stuff you thought was trash just keeps on keeping on.

Yogi Berra said it best: "You don't know what you don't know till you know what you don't know."

Most companies did not submit a rifle for the M24 Sniper Rifle Trials and all were notified and only two submissions were submitted and one did not make it.

When subjected to all the evaluations ( I called this the MUD, BLOOD AND BEER requirements.) we had to conduct on weapons I can't give you a good idea as when we get to the other things we evaluated I would have to surmise that it would not but it could be modified to achieve parts interchangeability requirements etc. The dust test is also a real killer. Guys that have been in the sand box can attest to that. For instance you put a rifle in salt fog spray for a week and come back you may not recognize it as a rifle. But coated with the right material it should be fine.

You walk into a cold room and pick up a weapon that has been at 60 below zero for 24 hours all you may get is a weak click especially if the wrong lubricant was used. I remember one test we did with CLP and five different weapon systems were used with that lube and not one rifle fired the next morning.

Then you conduct a drop test at that temp you are likely to have a two piece rifle on the first drop and I have had.

Then the dust test is a real bear to get through.

Interchangeability of parts would be a bear as well.

That being said I have a line up on another Sauer that I hope to have within the next six weeks if the guy comes home that has it.

For instance when I got to the Army Small Cal Lab I had access to engineering types who had been in weapon design for 25+ years so I took the opportunity to asked them. "If you knew you were going into a situation where you could take one weapon only and you had to depend on it for a long period what would you take?" EVERY LAST ONE SAID THE SAME THING as to their choice of a weapon to do such.
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Old 03-22-2020, 08:16 PM
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I need a few more parts for ARs and my m&p pistols. My main concerns is bolts, extractors, and firing pins. I have one extra AR firing pin and several stock triggers since I replaced all the stock ones with G triggers. Would like to pick up 3 complete bolt carriers (2 are for Lower builds that needed completing yesterday), 2 extra bolts, 5 extractors, couple h buffers and springs, and castle nuts.

I have an extra RSA and some springs for a g19 I have. Need spares for my mp 2.0. Plenty of mags. I can detail strip any non-micro glock blindfolded with a hand tied behind my back with nothing but a small punch or tiny flathead. Never been further than field-stripping an mp tho

I’m decent with working on an AR unless it’s really ****ed lol
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Old 03-22-2020, 08:37 PM
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"I’m decent with working on an AR unless it’s really ****ed lol[/QUOTE]

Now there is a understatement.There is so many bad ones there is no way I would want to drop down big bucks on one now. Obviously you have been around the block and found the craters in the road.
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Old 03-22-2020, 09:12 PM
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I ordered a bunch of parts after reading this thread.
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Old 03-22-2020, 09:38 PM
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I bought a Mossberg after reading this thread.

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Old 03-22-2020, 09:41 PM
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This falls into the "this is a non-issue to me" category.
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Old 03-22-2020, 10:20 PM
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Buy a quality rifle (LMT, SOLGW,BCM, Hodge, ect)
Shoot the **** out of it
Keep up with maintenance intervals
Replace consumable parts

You will be fine.
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Old 03-22-2020, 10:21 PM
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Yes Hummer, I am sure.

You might consider a couple of gunsmithing courses if you are still worried.
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Old 03-22-2020, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
"Iím decent with working on an AR unless itís really ****ed lol
Now there is a understatement.There is so many bad ones there is no way I would want to drop down big bucks on one now. Obviously you have been around the block and found the craters in the road.[/QUOTE]

Oh yea. Unless itís catastrophic (gun blows apart or gas tube melts) I can fix it. All my rifles are older colts, bcm, brownells lowers, and one spikes. Theyíve all been good over the last 10 years. Brownells havenít been mated to uppers yet tho
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Old 03-23-2020, 04:15 AM
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Key Mudder, since you are considering melting gas tubes be advised a M16 fired 500 rounds at one second intervals and loaded with a live round at 501 will cook off in 8-10 seconds per our testing at Aberdeen Proving Ground.

As well using XM855 ammo our barrels exhibited significant dispersion enhancement between 3600 and 4800 rounds. Acceptance dispersion is 4.5 inches at 100 yards for 10 shots and rejection is 7.2". I had 7" at 4800 rounds and at 6000 rounds they couldn't the backend of a double deck Greyhound at 800 and 700 and would have covered the whole back end at 600 meters when I stopped the testing.

We reconducted same testing again with M193, XM855, and SS109 and we shot up 10,000 rounds a day for fourteen straight days. The genuine SS109 had the barrels in spec at 12,000 rounds, the XM855 failed at same point. M193 was not much better.

In the first loadings the M855 was loaded with WC846 and now I understand it was changed to WC 844. I also understand the acceptance dispersion for the M855 has been relaxed in order to get more ammo qualified.

If you can ever get a deal on genuine SS109 get every last round you can and lay it in as it was the best ball ammo we ever saw.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:18 AM
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my idea of a spare parts set is a couple extra rifles of the same model..
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:49 AM
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Yeah spare rifles might do if you don't get visitors to your stash while you are out and about. I was once told of a gun club that had laid in lots of ammo and rifles when the DCM was still going 50 years ago and have them in a underground vault on the property and only the elected officers are shown where they are.

I had friend in Finland who told me years ago they will still finding caches of weapons and ammo hidden during the war the their hiders had died without telling anyone where they were.

My problem would be remembering where I buried them.

FWIW if you get ammo in GI cans don't open it. The projected ammo shelf life of unopened military cans is 125 years minimum. Once can is opened the projected life is 75 years. About 12 years back I found 30 cal sealed cans of 5.56 at a big reloading center in Ohio and bought two cans. To be considered a 30 cal can is about all you want to carry at any given time.

I knew a guy that had 1500 rd case of 06 AP unopened and was saving it for collapse. He died several years back and I guess his son has it now.

I met a grandson of the Finnish Army from WW2 and he told me how they got their weapons during the war. Fascinating.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:49 AM
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WHEN I was shooting competition I did it with my M1A A1 from SA.

Between general blasting, comp. practice and competition, it ran up over 40,000 rounds.
TOTAL parts replaced in that run...
1- extractor spring. Not because it failed.. of sorts, but when the gun got really dirty as in over 200 rounds or so it started NOT extracting about every 20-30 rounds. This was when rounds fired was in the 30,000 range. Would take a couple or three tries before it came out. If the gun was clean it ran fine.
so
Replaced the extractor spring.
Hasn't happened since.

Pretty reliable system.

But, parts are available.. and might still have one or two.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:53 AM
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I hve M1A on third barrel. Distinuished HP and P100
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:32 AM
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Distinguished HP here. No P100 yet. Not sure what this even has to do with keeping our rifles running other than we know how to shoot.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:20 PM
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That is the highest number of rounds I have ever heard of on a M1A which is a indication you know how to take care of one. I have one dedicated as a SHTF rifle. There are so many crappy ones floating around and all the top M1A builders I knew died. Glad to meet you and know there is someone else with similar interests. I used to shoot with a guy name Ron ????? from Arizona. As I remember he was a banker?
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:59 PM
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I know several Rons who shoot. Don't think any of them are bankers.

Ron Smith is still alive and well. Saw him not too long ago.
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Old 03-23-2020, 01:51 PM
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AZ HC
just sent you a PM with my phone number.
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