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Old 06-10-2019, 08:44 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Lump sum is funny. We have a 21 trillion dollar (and growing) debt and there is no unlimited pot of SS money sitting around collecting dust. This ludicrous concept that the "government" will hand out "my lifetime of social security contributions + interest " is the same as pretending one will win the Singapore lottery and trip to Mars.
I did not say they would or could. I just said. Those that have not saved and invested enough to out income their SS are too dumb to handle such a lump sum. They would be on the street in short order crying they deserve better.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:37 AM
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if i said "you can keep my taxes for the last 15 years" and started putting just the 6.1% back into a brokerage account, not even talking the OTHER 6.1% my employer pays as payroll taxes....well...at average market rates i'd end up with $377k at 62, i'd have enough money to draw $30,000/yr (not that measly $19k) until I was 100 years old before I ran out. And if I died early, my kids could inherit a huge lump sum.

Social Security is a bad joke that benefits no one except those who don't work. Anyone who paid in could have done better investing the money themselves.
I did the same math for my earnings and got very similar results. My savings on my half of the social security tax would have been double what I am expected to receive when I'm old. If I were able to save and invest my full SS contribution (my side and the employers 's side) I would have four times what SS is saying they will give me.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:27 AM
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I did the same math for my earnings and got very similar results. My savings on my half of the social security tax would have been double what I am expected to receive when I'm old. If I were able to save and invest my full SS contribution (my side and the employers 's side) I would have four times what SS is saying they will give me.
You will also need to deduct long term disability payments for yourself, at least until you have worked long enough to have saved enough for the retirement fund to cover minimal support.

Oh, then there is medicare / health insurance.

Oh, then there is your neighbor. Someone has to cover them.

It is our money and at least the fraction of that tax that will come back to us should offer us liberty for our choice of investment --- instead of their liberty to rob the SS lock box, that never existed.

Bush had a reasonable plan with features that offered some liberty. I'm sure many daemoncrats were not against the plan. They were simply against Bush.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:50 AM
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You will also need to deduct long term disability payments for yourself, at least until you have worked long enough to have saved enough for the retirement fund to cover minimal support.

Oh, then there is medicare / health insurance.

Oh, then there is your neighbor. Someone has to cover them.

It is our money and at least the fraction of that tax that will come back to us should offer us liberty for our choice of investment --- instead of their liberty to rob the SS lock box, that never existed.

Bush had a reasonable plan with features that offered some liberty. I'm sure many daemoncrats were not against the plan. They were simply against Bush.
medicare is a separate tax

even if i still had to pay a 2% tax to take care of the disabled and such, the other ~10% ought to be going in my 401k. i could have retired @#$%ing rich at 52, as could most working people. that's what they've stolen from regular working people.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:54 AM
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You will also need to deduct long term disability payments for yourself, at least until you have worked long enough to have saved enough for the retirement fund to cover minimal support.

Oh, then there is medicare / health insurance.

Oh, then there is your neighbor. Someone has to cover them.

It is our money and at least the fraction of that tax that will come back to us should offer us liberty for our choice of investment --- instead of their liberty to rob the SS lock box, that never existed.

Bush had a reasonable plan with features that offered some liberty. I'm sure many daemoncrats were not against the plan. They were simply against Bush.
Disability insurance is not that expensive when you are just starting out. No much income means not much insurance.

Why do I have to take care of my neighbor's poor choices?

All of your strawman arguments don't amount to much at the bottom line.

I've stated my proposition several times in this exact thread. If you are interested in my position, not just a theoretical statement based in fact, then look over the thread and find them. I'm not reposting it.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:52 AM
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If I were able to save and invest my full SS contribution I would have four times what SS is saying they will give me.
ROTFL!!! Hey, if I were able to save and invest all the money I spent on candy and beer and other vices I too would have four times what SS says they will give me ....if only, if only, if only...
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:39 AM
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ROTFL!!! Hey, if I were able to save and invest all the money I spent on candy and beer and other vices I too would have four times what SS says they will give me ....if only, if only, if only...
the obvious answer to that problem is to require that 6.2% to go directly into an untouchable IRA pre-tax
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:10 PM
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Disability insurance is not that expensive when you are just starting out. No much income means not much insurance.

Why do I have to take care of my neighbor's poor choices?

All of your strawman arguments don't amount to much at the bottom line.

I've stated my proposition several times in this exact thread. If you are interested in my position, not just a theoretical statement based in fact, then look over the thread and find them. I'm not reposting it.
Correct. At a young age it would be less expensive.

But is it the same insurance. Would it provide lifelong disability payments like SS does?

I don't think you should have to pay for your neighbor, but the Social Security Administration does. Maybe that is something that needs to be fixed.

A lot of changes could, and should, be made to SS.
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:15 PM
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the obvious answer to that problem is to require that 6.2% to go directly into an untouchable IRA pre-tax
Yes. Too easy.

The employees contribution could continue into the existing ponzie schema with payouts cut by half. Idiots could opt in with their half if they want full current benefits.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:02 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Yep SS is bad insurance for most. So why not take a like amount and make yourself rich.

I did not start until I was 44. I started contributing 10% of my gross. The wife did the same. Each time we got a wage increase we increased our contribution by half of that increase. By the time we retired we were saving 25% of our gross.

We own 3 homes, some acreage, pay or bills from the interest and dividends of our investments and use our SS checks as spending money.

Stop bellyaching about something that will never change unless it gets worse.

Take control of your life.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:04 PM
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Because the people not responsible enough to do what you suggest are the ones who need the government to take care of them, even as they deny such care.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:17 AM
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Yep SS is bad insurance for most. So why not take a like amount and make yourself rich.

I did not start until I was 44. I started contributing 10% of my gross. The wife did the same. Each time we got a wage increase we increased our contribution by half of that increase. By the time we retired we were saving 25% of our gross.

We own 3 homes, some acreage, pay or bills from the interest and dividends of our investments and use our SS checks as spending money.

Stop bellyaching about something that will never change unless it gets worse.

Take control of your life.
lots of us are saving back for retirement in 401ks

still doesn't mean we have to be happy with the screwing uncle sam is giving us
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:33 AM
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The problem with a lump sum payment is that the majority of people would burn through it....just like they have done most if their lives...
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:39 AM
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Disability insurance is not that expensive when you are just starting out. No much income means not much insurance.

Why do I have to take care of my neighbor's poor choices?

All of your strawman arguments don't amount to much at the bottom line.

I've stated my proposition several times in this exact thread. If you are interested in my position, not just a theoretical statement based in fact, then look over the thread and find them. I'm not reposting it.
1 in 30 collect SSDI, and under 22, you can collect it based on a parents incime- and I understand SSDI is easier to collect than many private policies.

There is also survivors insurance, nor just you retired spouse, but you spouse and kids if you die at 30. And an ex spouse ( and not impossabally more than 1) gets 50%, without reducing your benefits.

You can call the welfare portion a straw man, but if means you are financing your retirement by cutting benefits to the lower income. In a democracy that counts for a lot. And if you do manage to cut it, tradition welfare benefits will go up.


Just so you are clear, you payments are based on 90% of the fist $11,000 weighted average salary, 32% of the earnings from 11k to 66k, and 15% of the salary above 66k ( right now limited to 132, 900/yr). So if you max out your Earning, they are taking a huge chunk to support income redistribution.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:56 AM
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Why do I have to take care of my neighbor's poor choices?
Poor choices like being born to a working single parent of four, not being read to till first grade in failing school in a crime ridden ****hole, and even then too late to become functionally literate and get past 9th grade when grown men, abusers, get into the picture.

Yeah, why can't everybody make all the right "choices" like you did?
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:11 PM
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Poor choices like being born to a working single parent of four, not being read to till first grade in failing school in a crime ridden ****hole, and even then too late to become functionally literate and get past 9th grade when grown men, abusers, get into the picture.

Yeah, why can't everybody make all the right "choices" like you did?
To be fair, after trillions in spending, the government has yet to show their solutions have stellar results either. In the end, millions of single parent offspring are still illiterate and now joining the next generation of taxpayer financed welfare recipients or prison residents. There's got to be a better way besides doubling down on stupid.
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:31 PM
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Just so you are clear, you payments are based on 90% of the fist $11,000 weighted average salary, 32% of the earnings from 11k to 66k, and 15% of the salary above 66k ( right now limited to 132, 900/yr). So if you max out your Earning, they are taking a huge chunk to support income redistribution.
well that right there is why i'm getting a royal @#$%ing, then.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:18 PM
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Poor choices like being born to a working single parent of four, not being read to till first grade in failing school in a crime ridden ****hole, and even then too late to become functionally literate and get past 9th grade when grown men, abusers, get into the picture.

Yeah, why can't everybody make all the right "choices" like you did?
I believe it was Democratic Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (spelling?) who did a report years ago showing how the welfare system functioned as a way to break up the family unit by tacitly encouraging single/divorced mothers. By removing the father figure from the home, the woman became more and more dependent on the dot-gov. This seemed to have the greatest effect on minorities. If we've known this for forty or fifty years, the most obvious conclusion is that elected leadership (on both sides?) is happy that folks don't feel able to survive without "that Government cheese", SNAP, AFDC and all the other programs. I've known men and women from all races who've come out of such families and been successful. I've also seen a much bigger percentage who've fallen into the FSA mentality. Remember, if the welfare programs are too successful at gettin' folks out of poverty, there'll have to be cutbacks in the welfare office.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:30 PM
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lots of us are saving back for retirement in 401ks

still doesn't mean we have to be happy with the screwing uncle sam is giving us
I agree! I am just pointing out the reality of most vs. "lots of us". IMO most of those that want it all now are not part of "lots of us". They have not saved, invested and learned. Given a lump sum they would squander it and come after what "lots of us" have.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:36 PM
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1 in 30 collect SSDI, and under 22, you can collect it based on a parents incime- and I understand SSDI is easier to collect than many private policies.

There is also survivors insurance, nor just you retired spouse, but you spouse and kids if you die at 30. And an ex spouse ( and not impossabally more than 1) gets 50%, without reducing your benefits.

You can call the welfare portion a straw man, but if means you are financing your retirement by cutting benefits to the lower income. In a democracy that counts for a lot. And if you do manage to cut it, tradition welfare benefits will go up.

Just so you are clear, you payments are based on 90% of the fist $11,000 weighted average salary, 32% of the earnings from 11k to 66k, and 15% of the salary above 66k ( right now limited to 132, 900/yr). So if you max out your Earning, they are taking a huge chunk to support income redistribution.
You are exactly correct! It is a form of insurance (a bad form) not a retirement fund. Think of it as an annuity which provides disability and minor children income. (the minor children age including irresponsible young adults)
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