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Old 09-24-2017, 10:22 PM
country_boy country_boy is offline
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Good to know. The info I have on them only talks about verification... nothing on calibration. Did the place that calibrated yours ever mention how much drift they had when they came in?
No, they just certify that they are within the manufacturer's standards. Kind of like calibrating a fluke meter, all they really do is replace the battery-if that doesn't fix it, the meter is replaced.

I work for a group that wants to calibrate anything, and wants the calibration traceable to NIST. I've got a torque multiplier (using for torqueing down bolts on really large antennas- like 11m satellite dishes). It's nothing but gears, and would requires a parts change to change the gear ratio. But it has to go one every three years to SNAP-ON (who owns the manufacturer) for calibration- or normal contractor, can't handle the torque. Other then power meters, very little modern stuff is actually calibrated anymore- micrometer type torque wrench are another exception, but you still get the assurance that the numbers are accurate.
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:47 AM
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Default Ebay Alert.. AN/UDR-13 $125

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No, they just certify that they are within the manufacturer's standards. Kind of like calibrating a fluke meter, all they really do is replace the battery-if that doesn't fix it, the meter is replaced.



I work for a group that wants to calibrate anything, and wants the calibration traceable to NIST. I've got a torque multiplier (using for torqueing down bolts on really large antennas- like 11m satellite dishes). It's nothing but gears, and would requires a parts change to change the gear ratio. But it has to go one every three years to SNAP-ON (who owns the manufacturer) for calibration- or normal contractor, can't handle the torque. Other then power meters, very little modern stuff is actually calibrated anymore- micrometer type torque wrench are another exception, but you still get the assurance that the numbers are accurate.


Okay, then as I said they don't get calibrated/recalibrated, they have the calibration verified. I was misunderstanding you, I thought you were saying they get recalibrated. It's an important distinction, because some devices need periodic calibration depending on how much they drift, if a new/different probe is used, or if they need to indicate particular units. Most of the PRMs that I am familiar with don't need that periodic recalibration. I still recommend people have the calibration verified periodically, but I also understand they probably don't want to spend $200-$400 every year or two as a team or agency may be required to do. Since they're assuming their own liability, IMO, they can use whatever interval they're comfortable with... whether that's 2,3,5,10 years is up to them. I hammered pretty hard on the calibration requirement in my stickied post but probably didn't do a very good job of differentiating between validation and calibration and which devices need which. I think for most, if an exempt source works, and the PRM responds appropriately, they're good to go. I know you probably know this, I'm simply pointing it out for the benefit of others.
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Old 09-25-2017, 11:44 AM
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Agree with all of the above, except it can be cal'd with a NRC exempt source. We bought the calibrator with the units (on a credit card) and then ended up donating it to a lab who does the cals for us.
I don't know of any radiological instrument that can be calibrated by an NRC exempt source unless you're talking about a device that measures in counts and has an incredibly sensitive probe, or can be calibrated via a pulse generator.

I am highly doubtful that these military gamma dose rate radiac sets will calibrate to an NRC exempt source. A Cs-137 disc source will barely register on one of these. The amount of gamma radiation necessary to break into even just the lower ranges of its dose-rate detection would be astronomically higher than anything you can buy without a license. Is there some kind of calibration interface inside these meters that isn't readily apparent?
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:44 PM
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Here is some additional information on the AN/UDR series and the RGU-100. It seems like there is some confusion on which ones are suitable for measuring background.

AN/UDR 13: Dose rate detection from 0.001 cGy to 999 cGy (100 uSv to 9.99 Sv)

AN/UDR 14: Dose rate detection range from 0.01 uGy to 350 cGy (0.01 uSv to 3.5 Sv)

RGU-100: Dose rate detection range from 0.01 uGy to 350 cGy (0.01 uSv to 3.5 Sv)

As you can see, the RGU-100 (which fixes the dosimetry issue) adopts the *much* more sensitive detection range of the UDR 14 & 15. You will be able to detect background radiation with all the Canberry Dover Inc. pocket radiacs except the AN/UDR 13. However, as shown above, the trade-off is a much lower upper limit.

If you're past the dose rate detection range of the RGU-100 or UDR 14, it won't matter that you don't have the reach of the UDR 13...you're fried chicken at 3.5 Sv/hr (350 R/hr).


Sources: http://www.canberra.com/literature/b...ure_C40600.pdf

https://www.southernscientific.co.uk...1438855738.pdf

http://www.canberra.com/products/mil...-SS-C49673.pdf
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:09 AM
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Here is some additional information on the AN/UDR series and the RGU-100. It seems like there is some confusion on which ones are suitable for measuring background.
Nice find Kestrel. Here are the specs for the the civilian versions which look identical to the AN/UDR and RGU units except they're yellow or black.



UltraRadiac (MRAD-103/113/213) -- 1.0 uR/hr to 500 R/hr
103/113- The 113 adds a vibrating alarm vs the 103. The 213 is black in color. There are also 101/111/211 and 102/112/212s that are in Gy or Sv units. I don't remember which are which.

UltraRadiac-Plus (MRAD-XYZ) -- 1.0 uR/hr to 200 R/hr
This is the currently-produced civilian version (I see Mirion bought Canberra). I don't know what the deal with the newer ones is, the upper-limit of their measurement range went down pretty substantially and the accuracy dropped from +/- 20% to +/- 30%.

I agree with Kestrel that when you can find them new or in good condition, the UltraRadiacs or UDR-114s/RGU-100s are better because of the wider measurement range. That said, I haven't seen any AN/UDR-114s or RGU-100s second-hand yet. I would try to hold out for an UltraRadiac, but if someone's in a rush, I still think the AN/UDR-13s are still a good buy at $125 as long as you're okay with the cGy units and the lack of response until about 100x background (which is still relatively "safe").

Sources:

http://www.chagrinsehazmat.com/PDF%2...Literature.pdf

http://www.canberra.com/products/eme...lus-C40338.pdf
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:41 PM
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Agreed on the point that if you're below the detection range on the UDR 13, you're in no immediate danger. It would be helpful to have that extra resolution when searching for a long-term shelter, but not critical in the moments after disaster.

I'd be torn between the RGU-100, Ludlum 25, and Mirion DMC3000 if I were buying today. The fellows over at Ludlum seem particular to the ion chamber type detectors like the 9-3, but the detection range is *far* narrower on those. Those UltraRadiacs look nice, but like you pointed out, their upper limit for dose rate and energy response are substandard. I really hope they improve that. It makes me wonder if Mirion has stricter testing standards than Canberra did, meaning that *all* the Canberra-style units are +/-30%...
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:32 PM
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Agreed on the point that if you're below the detection range on the UDR 13, you're in no immediate danger. It would be helpful to have that extra resolution when searching for a long-term shelter, but not critical in the moments after disaster.

I'd be torn between the RGU-100, Ludlum 25, and Mirion DMC3000 if I were buying today. The fellows over at Ludlum seem particular to the ion chamber type detectors like the 9-3, but the detection range is *far* narrower on those. Those UltraRadiacs look nice, but like you pointed out, their upper limit for dose rate and energy response are substandard. I really hope they improve that. It makes me wonder if Mirion has stricter testing standards than Canberra did, meaning that *all* the Canberra-style units are +/-30%...
I have a Fluke 451, it works, it's nice... but I think I'd go with Ludlum next time. Ion Chambers will give you the most accurate representation of dose-in-tissue. BUT, in my experience they tend to be fragile, sensitive to temperature changes, and, they all seem to eventually leak. The high pressure ones are a PITA to ship because they're considered haz-mat items. For our purposes here... I recommend people stay away from them.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:31 AM
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Curious is the Energy Response on the UDR-13s also 30-40% 60kev-1.5Mev?
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:57 PM
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Tag...for future buy.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:40 AM
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They are selling out quick. Anyhow I did a verification of dose reading over 32 hours in a mixed isotope gamma field, 720uR/hr. I wanted to test below dose rate measurement and see if it collected an accurate dose over time.

I verified spot with a 451p to insure the same sensor location would provide average reading of 720-760 uR/hr

The UDR-13 definitely measures correct dose in a 32 hour period within specification of 20%
it measured 860uR/hr compared to 730 which would indicate 18% difference.


These are very nice for the price, you cant get anything at this price range that covers the full range of exposure levels of concern in an emergency. It will collect dose down to the 10uR/hr range which is background level, you wont see it on the display but over a couple of days you will see the dose measurement go up.
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:31 AM
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There is an AN/UDR-13 for sale now ebay used 98$

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Radiac-Set-...wAAOSwk-1aPHlK
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:26 PM
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Testing the UDR-13 if you have a 10uCi Cs-137 check source you should be measuring 0.019-0.020 uGy/hr

Looks like someone bought one of the 98 dollar ones, leaving 1 left. The AN/UDR-13 is a great item you get a wide dynamic range a rate meter and dosimeter in one + neutron dosimetry. We hit the UDR-13 with neutron and got a good reading.



The Pelican 1010 microcase is perfect for for the UDR-13, you can put the quick reference card on the back of the case and its visible since its clear and the actual unit fits nice and snug with extra protection from the silicone shell inside the case.

The 1010 has a carabiner on it so you can hook it to your clothing/beltloop etc.. and read the doserate in harsh environments and not worry about contaminating the unit itself.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:00 PM
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Tag...for future buy.
Not sure about future buy, they seem to be gone except one used version for 98 bucks. Looks like the days of cheap high quality mil radiacs coming to an end.

Another issue which sucks is it seems the UDR-13 now have a DEMIL code and are mutilated and scrapped(MUT) instead of being liquidated as surplus for sale to public. Not sure what the reason for this is. Sad because it is a great tool to provide safety for civilians in the event of an RDD or tactical nuclear event.


UDR-13 now has

DEMIL (D) - Munitions List Item or Commerce Control List Item. Demilitarization required. Total destruction of the item and components so as to preclude restoration or repair to a usable condition by melting, cutting, tearing, scratching, crushing, breaking, punching, neutralizing, etc. (As an alternate, burial or deep water dumping may be used when coordinated with the DoD Demilitarization Program Office.)

PDR-77 Radiac now has

Demilitarization Code: F Munitions List Item or Commerce Control List Item. Demilitarization required. Demilitarization Instructions to be furnished by the Item/Technical Manager.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:01 AM
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Wow looks like stock is depleted except one for 550 dollars in Poland. I guess the Hawaii panic etc.. got people a little spooked.

Well for 125 dollars you cannot find a better ratemeter/dosimeter. Now with political issues etc.. better to have than not have.
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:13 PM
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Update on why the Demil code change. As I stated before.

Quick note. Any UDR-13 you see might not stay around long enough.

UDR-13 are coded as Demil D (total destruction to scrap no disposition to civilians)

which means NO govliquidation or surplus sales.

The reason for this is the neutron detector built into them, in addition to a few other special features not available in the civilian edition.

Whats funny is a small number of them new in box were accidentally disposed of before the different departments figured it out, after that the lock down kicked in.

So with the UDR-13 you will get a combined dose measurement ie Thermal neutrons which have a factor of 3 and gammas a factor of 1. I was told the software takes that into consideration when giving you a centigrey absorbed dose measurement. Interesting stuff indeed.
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:18 PM
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Update on why the Demil code change. As I stated before.

Quick note. Any UDR-13 you see might not stay around long enough.

UDR-13 are coded as Demil D (total destruction to scrap no disposition to civilians)

which means NO govliquidation or surplus sales.

The reason for this is the neutron detector built into them, in addition to a few other special features not available in the civilian edition.

Whats funny is a small number of them new in box were accidentally disposed of before the different departments figured it out, after that the lock down kicked in.

So with the UDR-13 you will get a combined dose measurement ie Thermal neutrons which have a factor of 3 and gammas a factor of 1. I was told the software takes that into consideration when giving you a centigrey absorbed dose measurement. Interesting stuff indeed.


The UDR-13s arenít supposed to be used for prompt dose. It was found the calculations arenít accurate.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:20 PM
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The UDR-13s arenít supposed to be used for prompt dose. It was found the calculations arenít accurate.
Thats due to the solid state detection elements getting damage within the 2km dose.

Outside that 2km radius though it will be good, minimum Prompt dose sensitivity starts at 30 cGy. Moot point since most people will not have them turned on until the balloon goes up.

But its a great fallout ratemeter/dosimeter. Unfortunately the neutron aspects are what uncle sam does not like getting out and new ones getting scrspped.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:54 AM
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Thats due to the solid state detection elements getting damage within the 2km dose.

Outside that 2km radius though it will be good, minimum Prompt dose sensitivity starts at 30 cGy. Moot point since most people will not have them turned on until the balloon goes up.

But its a great fallout ratemeter/dosimeter. Unfortunately the neutron aspects are what uncle sam does not like getting out and new ones getting scrapped.
I almost managed to nab an AN/PDR-77 Kit, with alpha, beta, gamma, and X-Ray probes along with a water contaminant analysis kit a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I was working and couldn't babysit the auction so I got sniped at the last minute. I'm still mad about that. That, and I never should have sold my Identifinder but someone waved a stack of cash in my face and at the time I needed a newer car.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:17 PM
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I almost managed to nab an AN/PDR-77 Kit, with alpha, beta, gamma, and X-Ray probes along with a water contaminant analysis kit a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I was working and couldn't babysit the auction so I got sniped at the last minute. I'm still mad about that. That, and I never should have sold my Identifinder but someone waved a stack of cash in my face and at the time I needed a newer car.
The PDR-77 is nice but I like the ADM-300 better. Wow did not know there is much of a marker for used Identifinders.

I was able to snag one complete PDR-77 kit along with an RSO kit containing a never used Scintillation And beta probe.

Sad they are scrapping this stuff now instead of putting them out. I understand the UDR-13 due to the neutron detection component but why the PDR-77.

ADM-300s are allowable to be disposed of to the govliquidation yet PDR-77 nope. Talk about crazy decision making.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:20 PM
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The PDR-77 is nice but I like the ADM-300 better. Wow did not know there is much of a marker for used Identifinders.

I was able to snag one complete PDR-77 kit along with an RSO kit containing a never used Scintillation And beta probe.

Sad they are scrapping this stuff now instead of putting them out. I understand the UDR-13 due to the neutron detection component but why the PDR-77.

ADM-300s are allowable to be disposed of to the govliquidation yet PDR-77 nope. Talk about crazy decision making.
The Rae Systems NeutronRAE's have neutron detection and they're not restricted. There must be a different reason. It's probably an Obama-era rule Why don't you write the Trump Administration and ask them to reconsider it?
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