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Old 10-09-2019, 10:47 AM
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Monday is the last week of a 6-week class called Irresistible, by Andy Stanley. In week 3, which I missed, evidently in the video Andy made a statement that was controversial to the Nazarene assembly. It was something along the lines of the New Covenant completely replaced the Old Covenant.

Because I did not hear what was said directly, I don't know the exact context. However, the Nazarene assembly held the 10 Commandments and tithing to be rules of conduct still in effect. So, this brings up the bigger question of how to apply old covenant principles today?

For instance, in another thread about Israel dealing with Islamic Jihad's targeting women and children, I referenced God's command to the 1st king of Israel to kill the living assets of their enemy - including the women, children and babies and even livestock. I realize this was a specific command - to one person (Saul) at that time and against that enemy (Amalekite) and not a general command, like the 10 Commandments, that applied to all people at all times.

To play the devil's advocate, IF there are no old covenant principles that apply today, what then is the purpose of reading the Old Testament? Is it just reference? Understanding historical context? I look forward to your thoughtful reply.


"Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys."
1 Samuel 15:3 (CEV)
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:55 AM
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The New Covenant did completely replace the Old but the New contains many of the same principles. I do believe that the Old Covenant can and should be used as a guide in a person's general conduct. The New Covenant emphasizes things like "love thy neighbor." If we follow that general Commandment then we're obviously not going to murder or steal or bear false witness. Nevertheless, the New Covenant in Christ's blood cannot be improved upon.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:19 AM
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All "The Law" (Old Covenant) should be viewed, believed and perceived "through the lens" of the New Covenant and in every way it trumps the Old Covenant.

AJ gave a great example above. Another one is in our giving.... The Old Testament commands believers to give 10%... or the Tithe. In the New Covenant, there is no command to give 10%.... but to have a 'giving heart' and give when we are impressed and guided to give by the leading of the Spirit. When one lives this way, they will look up at the end of the month... have been more blessed, their money going further and they will have given more than 10%.

In the Old Testament, our God was one of rules, judgement, etc.... where acceptance was based on behavior. In the New Testament (we are in the age of grace), believers are covered by the blood of Jesus. We can't earn acceptance, its a gift.... salvation is based on believing and receiving.


.......
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:55 PM
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The Old Covenant is reference to understand in depth the New Covenant. You can stay only with the New Covenant and be on solid ground. But the wise study the Old Covenant as well so they can see clearer the greatness of God in the New Covenant.
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:01 PM
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The Old Testament commands believers to give 10%... or the Tithe. In the New Covenant ... to have a 'giving heart' and ... they will have given more than 10%.
Last summer the pastor said nation wide there is no command hardly more violated than tithing, with church members barely giving 2-3% on average.
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:05 PM
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The Old Covenant is reference to understand in depth the New Covenant. You can stay only with the New Covenant and be on solid ground. But the wise study the Old Covenant as well so they can see clearer the greatness of God in the New Covenant.
Hmmm. Interesting.

I spend probably 80% of each morning's devotional reading to the Old Testament and am not sure how to apply what I'm reading.
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:31 PM
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What about the Sabbath?

A day of rest is vital.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:15 PM
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What about the Sabbath?

A day of rest is vital.
How about 2 days of rest? The Sabbath and the Day of the Lord.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:24 PM
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How about 2 days of rest? The Sabbath and the Day of the Lord.


The planets must have aligned again. I believe this is the 2nd time we've agreed this year.

Although I found 1 day is not a true day of rest; that we dedicate 5 days each week to 'the man' and need at least one day to tend to ourselves with worship, charity, groceries, laundry, lawn mowing, yard and house maintenance and improvements. On top of this is spending time with extended family and friends.

Exhausting. A true day of rest is needed and am glad you do not reject resting on the Sabbath day.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:18 AM
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Last summer the pastor said nation wide there is no command hardly more violated than tithing, with church members barely giving 2-3% on average.
I know it's a well known secret in our Church that 90% of the giving comes from just 10% of the people. Some honestly can't afford to give anything and that's okay with us.

Oddly enough, the volunteering works about the same way. 10% do 90% of the ministry/works.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Big_John View Post
All "The Law" (Old Covenant) should be viewed, believed and perceived "through the lens" of the New Covenant and in every way it trumps the Old Covenant.

AJ gave a great example above. Another one is in our giving.... The Old Testament commands believers to give 10%... or the Tithe. In the New Covenant, there is no command to give 10%.... but to have a 'giving heart' and give when we are impressed and guided to give by the leading of the Spirit. When one lives this way, they will look up at the end of the month... have been more blessed, their money going further and they will have given more than 10%.

In the Old Testament, our God was one of rules, judgement, etc.... where acceptance was based on behavior. In the New Testament (we are in the age of grace), believers are covered by the blood of Jesus. We can't earn acceptance, its a gift.... salvation is based on believing and receiving.


.......

Concerning giving in the New Covenant: Charity is emphasized by Christ and especially Paul. Then there's the history of the widow who gave all she had. Christ seemed pleased by that and used her as an example when confronting the Pharisees.


Also, I try to follow the OT food laws to some degree. Although I'll have some crisply bacon on occasion I generally avoid pork and other "unclean" foods. I do not believe it's a salvation issue but do believe it's a health issue.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:56 AM
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I know it's a well known secret in our Church that 90% of the giving comes from just 10% of the people. Some honestly can't afford to give anything and that's okay with us.

Oddly enough, the volunteering works about the same way. 10% do 90% of the ministry/works.
Today, I finished reading the Bible in its entirety via a one year plan. (A real sense of accomplishment comes with that. )

It seems that many hold as still valid in the Old Covenant, the 10 Commandments (including resting on the Sabbath) and tithing. Andy Stanley said the New Covenant (Jesus saying to love one another) is much simpler but also much harder to put into practice.

I suppose that is why people revert to the Old Covenant; our feminized society cannot connect love, the feeling to specific actions. Hence the ubiquitous, "who are you to judge," a variant of let he who is without sin cast the first stone. All of this, goes against the notion today of holding people accountable.

For instance, it is much easier for me to speak the truth in anger than in love. Given a choice, I'd rather speak the truth angrily than not at all. Others are biased the other way, not holding anyone accountable out of a misguided sense of love, not wanting to hurt their feelings. So, dispensing with Old Covenant dictates with the ambiguous 'love one another' command, how well do us believers do, even here on these on line forums? To answer that question, I suspect we'd use a proxy for love, e.g., harmony, complimentary compared to divisive and insulting posts that might fly back and forth. In other words, "love" does not lend itself to measurable and specific actions for one to gage, yes?


This is My command to you: love one another.
John 15:17 (VOICE)
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:37 PM
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Hmmm. Interesting.

I spend probably 80% of each morning's devotional reading to the Old Testament and am not sure how to apply what I'm reading.

Whether you know it or not ... what you're reading IS slowly but surely affecting your life in some form, shape, or manner. The Holy Spirit whispers to us through the written Word (among other avenues).
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:40 PM
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Today, I finished reading the Bible in its entirety via a one year plan. (A real sense of accomplishment comes with that. )

It seems that many hold as still valid in the Old Covenant, the 10 Commandments (including resting on the Sabbath) and tithing. Andy Stanley said the New Covenant (Jesus saying to love one another) is much simpler but also much harder to put into practice.

I suppose that is why people revert to the Old Covenant; our feminized society cannot connect love, the feeling to specific actions. Hence the ubiquitous, "who are you to judge," a variant of let he who is without sin cast the first stone. All of this, goes against the notion today of holding people accountable.

For instance, it is much easier for me to speak the truth in anger than in love. Given a choice, I'd rather speak the truth angrily than not at all. Others are biased the other way, not holding anyone accountable out of a misguided sense of love, not wanting to hurt their feelings. So, dispensing with Old Covenant dictates with the ambiguous 'love one another' command, how well do us believers do, even here on these on line forums? To answer that question, I suspect we'd use a proxy for love, e.g., harmony, complimentary compared to divisive and insulting posts that might fly back and forth. In other words, "love" does not lend itself to measurable and specific actions for one to gage, yes?


This is My command to you: love one another.
John 15:17 (VOICE)
Great job!!! Congrats!

Next step ... read the KJV from start to finish. It's longer than other versions (66 book versions) of the Bible but well worth seeing what the newer versions have omitted.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:26 PM
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Today, I finished reading the Bible in its entirety via a one year plan. (A real sense of accomplishment comes with that. )


Now pick another version and do it again. You can read through it in 3 months if you spend an hour a day reading it. Though I admit it is a struggle to do so.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:35 PM
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What about the Sabbath?

A day of rest is vital.

I do believe in resting our bodies, minds, and souls. In the OT times ... all of the Israelites were on the same page and rested on the same day --- the seventh day. In our modern society, there are many cops, nurses, doctors, firemen, etc. who must work or be ready to work on Saturday & Sunday. So it simply isn't possible to keep a "perfect" Sabbath. I rest a little on Saturday and a little on Sunday. But the greatest rest of all is the New Covenant rest in Jesus Christ:


Matthew 11:28-30 ,"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:24 PM
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Now pick another version and do it again.
Will do.

There is no way Iím reading a translation with James in the title. I have CEV, which I read OT. NLT which I read the NT. Then there is the Voice.

If anything else, I want to read additional books in the Eastern Orthodox Bible and Apocrypha.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:36 PM
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Will do.

There is no way I’m reading a translation with James in the title. I have CEV, which I read OT. NLT which I read the NT. Then there is the Voice.

If anything else, I want to read additional books in the Eastern Orthodox Bible and Apocrypha.
I struggle with the KJV just due to the language. NIV is an easy read. NASB is good also. Want to be challenged, try reading it in the Amplified version.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:37 PM
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Will do.

There is no way Iím reading a translation with James in the title. I have CEV, which I read OT. NLT which I read the NT. Then there is the Voice.

If anything else, I want to read additional books in the Eastern Orthodox Bible and Apocrypha.
whats wrong with the NKJV?
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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...To play the devil's advocate, IF there are no old covenant principles that apply today, what then is the purpose of reading the Old Testament? Is it just reference? Understanding historical context? I look forward to your thoughtful reply.
I've never heard it explained this way but here's what I believe:

If one was able to follow "the law" all the time, they would not need salvation. So, the old covenant hasn't gone away. But, since no one could do that...

The old testament law includes several types of laws or instructions.
  • The instructions that were given to one person or given to apply to a single situation - those don't apply to us or to today.
  • The law that was specifically to prevent God's chosen people from inter-marrying or adopting the culture and beliefs of the others around them - these do not apply today.
  • The laws of sacrifice. The price of sin was paid with Jesus so these do not apply today.
  • The kosher laws. Peter's vision of the unclean food descending on the sheet tells me that these laws do not apply today.
  • The rest of the old testament laws - such as the 10 commandments, those apply today.

It is hard to always know what category a law belongs in.
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